98: From Black Isle to Bethesda

[Archon]

I'll just say that the Fallout brand could have fallen into far worse hands than Bethesda. It's not hard to imagine a parallel history where a publisher with the Fallout brand just licensed development to a low-cost offshore development shop and pushed out a B game to try to milk the brand cow.

Bethesda may not make the game that Interplay/Black Isle would have made, but they will at least make a good game.

 

[Amasius [deprecated]]

Oh my, I don't like it to be called a (Fallout-) fanatic. While I am a longtime fan I haven't spend the last decade at No Mutants Allowed, in fact I have never posted there. I also don't think that this thread is the right place to discuss if Bethesda is able to develop a worthy sequel to Fallout 1/2 or not. This seems to be some kind of distraction (started here by Russ Pitts) from the real problem - the quality of the article.

I think nowadays game journalism is in a terrible state, independent and critical work is hard to find. Than The Escapist appeared and offered well written and interesting articles I enjoyed to read. But now I'm a bit sceptical if I can trust The Escapist any longer. This poorly researched article (even the title is inappropriate - it should be called "from Interplay to Bethesda") rather seems to be part of the beginning advertising campaign for Fallout 3 than an example for independent game journalism. I am disappointed - by the article, but even more by the reaction to the criticism.

 

[Archon]

Amasius, we never like to disappoint any reader. We treasure our reputation and we hold ourselves to a higher standard of journalism. To the extent that we have disappointed you, we have failed.

That said, I do think you are being unduly harsh in a few of your criticisms. It's ok to bloody our nose, but please don't kick us in the nuts.

This poorly researched article (even the title is inappropriate - it should be called "from Interplay to Bethesda")

I believe the thinking was that Black Isle was the first licensee of Interplay, while Bethesda was the latest. Hence, From Black Isle to Bethesda. We could also have called it From Interplay to Bethesda, but that doesn't make our choice of title inappropriate or wrong, I don't think.

I also don't think that this thread is the right place to discuss if Bethesda is able to develop a worthy sequel to Fallout 1/2 or not. This seems to be some kind of distraction (started here by Russ Pitts) from the real problem - the quality of the article.

Well, this thread was auto-generated when we published the article. The first post was by someone telling us "great article". You're free to focus on flaws you see, but there's no conspiracy to "distract" you from what the thread is "supposed" to be about. It's just a thread. I feel like you're calling us out for... responding...?

Far from try to ignore and distract everyone from the issue, Russ hunted down our resident research manager, had her confirm the mistakes, then updated the published article to include the corrections. The average magazine or website - like the New York Times - just publishes a two sentence "correction" a week later. We went live and fixed the bug, then came and made a mea culpa.

So, again, I'm sorry you were disappointed with the article, but I also think you're being a little harsh, particularly when you start to question our independence and suggest we're just running advertising.

 

[Amasius [deprecated]]

I believe the thinking was that Black Isle was the first licensee of Interplay, while Bethesda was the latest. Hence, From Black Isle to Bethesda. We could also have called it From Interplay to Bethesda, but that doesn't make our choice of title inappropriate or wrong, I don't think.

Lets take a look at the article:
"Black Isle was forced to go it alone, creating their own rule system, "SPECIAL ."
This shows that Mr. Zenke thinks wrongly that Fallout and its rule system was created by Black Isle. Well, Fallout was released in 1997 and Black Isle was founded as a division of Interplay in 1998. He isn't writing about licensees but obviously about developers.

Well, this thread was auto-generated when we published the article. The first post was by someone telling us "great article". You're free to focus on flaws you see, but there's no conspiracy to "distract" you from what the thread is "supposed" to be about. It's just a thread. I feel like you're calling us out for... responding...?

Of course this is just an autogenerated thread and it is often unpredictable which direction such a thread takes but after some unspecific praise and criticism Russ Pitts answers with

As to inaccuracies in Michael Zenke's story, there are two that we've decided needed to be addressed, and we have addressed them.

Than he called the Fallout fans "some of the most passionate - and vocal - in the business". Maybe I'm just to suspicious, but I have the impression that he is implying "and irrational".
After his post (and even before) some other mistakes in the article were pointed out and instead to adress them he only assured his trust in Bethesda. The quality of Fallout 3 shouldn't be his concern; the quality of the article however should be.

Far from try to ignore and distract everyone from the issue, Russ hunted down our resident research manager, had her confirm the mistakes, then updated the published article to include the corrections.

Uh, you are aware that there are still some factual errors in the article?

- Black Isle hasn't developed the Baldur's Gate series
- Black Isle hasn't developed the first Fallout
- Bethesda isn't located anymore in Bethesda

So, again, I'm sorry you were disappointed with the article, but I also think you're being a little harsh, particularly when you start to question our independence and suggest we're just running advertising.

Well, my suspicion was raised when Russ Pitts mentioned Mr. (Pete) Hines in his response. Mr. Hines is well known to be a quite a magician when it comes to advertising campaigns and to create hype for their new games. But you could gain my trust back with a critical analysis of game marketing exemplified at Pete Hines' work for Bethesda. That should be a very interesting article and could be written by Russ Pitts who showed in his I'm evil. Confessions of an Online Guerilla Marketer [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/62/4] article that he knows something about the subject.

 

[Bongo Bill]

As to inaccuracies in Michael Zenke's story, there are two that we've decided needed to be addressed, and we have addressed them.

Than he called the Fallout fans "some of the most passionate - and vocal - in the business". Maybe I'm just to suspicious, but I have the impression that he is implying "and irrational".

This strikes me as paranoid.

 

[falselogic]

A valid question might be why isn't Michael Zenke on the board defending his article? Why are Pitts and Archon, apologizing and making excuses for him? It was his article and his research. A simple apology on his part and a correction of the errors in the article is all that is necessary. Then the forum can move on to talking about how great Fallout was (very great) and what we think Bethesda can do with the IP (cautious optimism).

 

[Bongo Bill]

Isn't Michael Zenke a Slashdot editor? It'd explain the mysterious silence.

 

[UCRC]

(I won't be getting into discussion about poor quality of article. For people who don't know Fallout well mistakes like this aren't quite important. And for Fallout fans it might be annoying but whatever - so short article wouldn't have any informative vaule anyways.)

@Archon

It's not hard to imagine a parallel history where a publisher with the Fallout brand just licensed development to a low-cost offshore development shop and pushed out a B game to try to milk the brand cow.

I think that you've got it totally wrong. Fallout is just too big brand to be sold to any smaller company. So it was obvious that Interplay will be holding their rights until someone really BIG comes by and buys them - because it was last chance of revival for them [as you all probably know - cause it was already in escapist headlines - now they are developing fallout mmo for bethesda].
So since Interplay went dead we were at least sure that now we will have to see Fallout 3 or this would be definite end. (Because selling title out to small company wouldn't gave them money they were looking for at the time.)
And as Bethesda have bought the rights to Fallout they won't be looking for small developers, because they themselves want to push on with big title, and other products in the franchise would be only distraction.

 

[Blaxton]

Maybe I don't get their RPG style, maybe I didn't play the game long enough to appreciate what they do, but so far my experience with Bethesda has been less than enjoyable.

I played about 6 hours of Morrowind I couldn't force myself through another minute. It was like an MMO with no multiplayer. I know thats only a few hours to play such a large game, but I don't remember enjoying any part of it. The animations were terrible. I found no joy in killing the smallest vermain because it took so long to get one or two hits.

Maybe I'm missing something that made the game, and other games like it, great, but I have no iterest in their games as of right now.

 

[Echolocating]

Maybe I don't get their RPG style, maybe I didn't play the game long enough to appreciate what they do, but so far my experience with Bethesda has been less than enjoyable.

I just don't get The Elder Scrolls series either. Bethesda puts so much effort into a formula that encourages massive amounts of mediocrity, in my opinion.

 

[Automatic Meat [deprecated]]

I just don't get The Elder Scrolls series either. Bethesda puts so much effort into a formula that encourages massive amounts of mediocrity, in my opinion.

I have two fortune cookies here. One says you'll be deemed a Fallout fanboy by other posters for not falling in love with Bethesda's dazzling array of design mediocrity pampered by awards and high scores, and the other says you'll be deemed a Fallout fanboy by other posters for not falling in love with Bethesda's dazzling array of design mediocrity pampered by awards and high scores.

Which do you think you'll get?

 

[TomBeraha]

@Automatic Meat, Echolocating: Man I really wish fallout fanboys wouldn't keep posting

All kidding aside, I have had trouble getting into Morrowind myself, if you lasted 6 hours blaxton you gave it more of an effort than I was willing to. I did and do enjoy Oblivion, but for all the reasons that other people seem not to. I love wandering around in the world aimlessly making potions and selling them. I don't really care for the voice acting - the stor - or some other aspects of it. I still find it to be wonderfully addictive when I set goals for myself like "own all the property" buy statues and clothe them with all the different armor types and so on. (The statues are a mod)

Fallout's story is not amazing. It's that they take such a horrible event, and find humor in the apocalypse that makes it so intriguing. If Bethesda manages to continue the style, without being referential they will probably win my vote. I worry that the game will go for too much interaction, too big of a world, and too much to do in it. Thats not what makes fallout great, it's not about having 1000s of NPCs to converse with. It's that the NPC's you do converse with are all memorable, even comical in their own way. Oblivions characters lack charm, and as best I can tell, so do all of Bethesda's.

I am not impugning the quality of their games, just the quality of their characters. Bethesda would do well to hire a competent character writer to work with their stories, to give characters back story, and then hire someone capable of voicing them.

 

[Echolocating]

Which do you think you'll get?

I'll take both! Mmmm... cookies. ;-)

I haven't played any Fallout games actually.

-----

I agree with you, Tom... quality over quantity, man.

Whatever happens to the next installment of Fallout, I just pray that the game doesn't punish me for picking a lock, jumping, or talking to someone (or performing one of a billion other mundane actions) and then magically level the world around me.

By the way, I like to complain... oh, crap!!! Damn it all! My complaining skill just went up... oh, great. I just leveled up and now I can't leave the house because the neighborhood cats have been replaced with 10-foot tall demons that bleed hate.

 

[UCRC]

All kidding aside, I have had trouble getting into Morrowind myself, if you lasted 6 hours blaxton you gave it more of an effort than I was willing to. I did and do enjoy Oblivion, but for all the reasons that other people seem not to. I love wandering around in the world aimlessly making potions and selling them. I don't really care for the voice acting - the stor - or some other aspects of it. I still find it to be wonderfully addictive when I set goals for myself like "own all the property" buy statues and clothe them with all the different armor types and so on.

But this only describes problem we will have with BethSoft approach to Fallout. Morrowind was game with great main quest (if you were only willing to read), compelling world, own setting and style. But Bethesda failed in trying to combine story-driven game with TES openes ('do whatever you want').
So they changed approach but they changed it for worse: if people can't get into story driven game, which has to be so text-heavy, let's just leave it.
And they did so.
Oblivion plot design and dialogue writing was mostly terrible. Industry veterans like Emil Pagiarulo who worked on Dark Brotherhood saved some parts, but with general approach to make game simpler all the TES lore had to get dumbed down.
Same might go with Fallout. I'm not worried that they CAN'T copy (but still - in creative way) atmosphere from first two titles, and all feeling of something, umm, DEEP in all aspects of game. I'm worried that they will presume that they don't have to do that. Because action-driven Oblivion was selling better than Morrowind. Crap.

 

[oneofm4ny]

Whatever happens to the next installment of Fallout, I just pray that the game doesn't punish me for picking a lock, jumping, or talking to someone (or performing one of a billion other mundane actions) and then magically level the world around me.

By the way, I like to complain... oh, crap!!! Damn it all! My complaining skill just went up... oh, great. I just leveled up and now I can't leave the house because the neighborhood cats have been replaced with 10-foot tall demons that bleed hate.

Exactly xD
That's the main reason I stopped playing Oblivion.
That and the huge, dead, empty world and the totally botched rpg system.
Learning by doing... run up against a wall for half an hour...
Oblivion and Morrowind are the only two rpg games I know of where I have to be cautious how I level up and how fast.

I hope they stick with the SPECIAL system in fallout 3.

 

[UCRC]

I'm pretty sure they will because it is simply too important for too many people, so it would be commercially harmful for them, if they wouldn't.
But be aware that they always might cripple it in soooooo many ways trying to make it more oblivionish ;]
(imo oblivion system wasn't bad, but it is good only for such open-ended mmo-like games like TES)

 

[Amasius [deprecated]]

As to inaccuracies in Michael Zenke's story, there are two that we've decided needed to be addressed, and we have addressed them.

Than he called the Fallout fans "some of the most passionate - and vocal - in the business". Maybe I'm just to suspicious, but I have the impression that he is implying "and irrational".

This strikes me as paranoid.

Paranoid? Heh, can't deny that. I even thought for a second that Mr. Zenke mistook Interplay and Black Isle intentionally because Black Isle unlike Interplay still has a very good, promotional name. Yeah, I'm that paranoid...

But than all mistakes were clarified in the latest issue. Oh wait, they weren't...

 

[ChickenOfDoom]

I liked Morrowind a lot more than Oblivion, basically for the reasons that in Oblivion the world was pretty but uninteresting to explore. Wander around and you were sure to find a lot of trees broken up by some fields and a river, near identical cities with no marked differences in culture or architecture, and three similar and universally unrewarding dungeon types. In Morrowind there were countless interesting things to discover; in Oblivion there were several. I haven't gotten around to playing the original Fallouts, but I think the only chance the sequel has of being any good is if Bethesda re-evaluates their priorities.