A Bechdel test for video games?

[Stephen St.]

Hey, I am making a new feminism thread *evil laughs*.

Well, no actually, I just want to ask whether, and how, one could measure if one particular group is well represented in a video game. This is partly a response to Jim's latest video, which has sparked a lot of discussion [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.829756-Jimquisition-Vertigo].

For those who don't know, the Bechdel test is named after American cartoonist Alison Bechdel, and appeared in one of her comic strips. A film "passes" the test if:

1. It has to have at least two women in it,
2. who talk to each other,
3. about something besides a man.

Obviously the test is controversial, and it certainly isn't indicative of a movies quality of even it's protrayal of gender. It's just a quick and simple tool to identify trends in the industry. And since a lot of the discussion seemed to revolve around how Jim's standards for a female character were somehow incorrect, maybe we need a similar, very low, bar for games that we can use to assess the basic direction of the industry. Something like:

1. The game has a woman in it,
2. that interacts with the player character,
3. in ways other than providing assistance for the quest or requiring assistance,

I know that such a test is a gross oversimplification of the issue. I also know that it wouldn't allow us to make any statements about an individual game. The only thing it's supposed to be usefull for is identifying a trend in the portrayal of female characters. Or any characters, really, because the group doesn't matter. You can reapply this test to ethnic groups, religion (probably hard with fantasy games), sexual orientation, etc.

So, what do you think? Is that test usefull? If yes, which games pass it? If no, is there another short test that might be usefull?

 

[aozgolo]

I think the standard Bechdel Test works fine for Video Games in terms of narrative. I think a more interesting approach is simply to find out which games in fact DO pass all three criteria for a Bechdel Test.

So far I'm having difficulty coming up with anything except for Final Fantasy V's "sisters"

 

[Sack of Cheese]

I think the standard Bechdel Test works fine for Video Games in terms of narrative. I think a more interesting approach is simply to find out which games in fact DO pass all three criteria for a Bechdel Test.

So far I'm having difficulty coming up with anything except for Final Fantasy V's "sisters"

Plenty!

Bayonetta
Most JRPGs (Atelier series, Final fantasy, Hyperdimension Neptunia, Persona, Tales of...)
Fire emblem
Visual novels
Fighting games (where everyone punches each other and talk sometimes in ending cutscenes)
...

 

[Stephen St.]

I just realized that "being the player character" is completely left out in my example. I did not think that through.

Which may indicate the problem, actually:

I think the standard Bechdel Test works fine for Video Games in terms of narrative. I think a more interesting approach is simply to find out which games in fact DO pass all three criteria for a Bechdel Test.

So far I'm having difficulty coming up with anything except for Final Fantasy V's "sisters"

What do we do with the player character? Does it count?

 

[IllumInaTIma]

As Shaun said, standard Bechdel Test works just fine. Persona 3, Persona 4, Front Mission 3, Front Mission 4, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Jade Empire pass that test with flying colors.

 

[aozgolo]

I just realized that "being the player character" is completely left out in my example. I did not think that through.

Which may indicate the problem, actually:

I think the standard Bechdel Test works fine for Video Games in terms of narrative. I think a more interesting approach is simply to find out which games in fact DO pass all three criteria for a Bechdel Test.

So far I'm having difficulty coming up with anything except for Final Fantasy V's "sisters"

What do we do with the player character? Does it count?

The player character would only apply when you have a fixed character, as in one you do not create yourself. In that instance I think it would depend also on how fixed the story was.

Mass Effect (as well as most Bioware games) would be a good example of a game that could pass the test as it has multiple female characters that interact with each other (which is a fundamental part of the Bechdel Test) and discuss something unrelated to men (though you can choose to be female).

 

[FourCartridge]

If the Bechdel test ain't universal, what's the point of having the Bechdel test? What if a work's video game adaptation(which for the sake of argument is faithful to the source material) which passes the Bechdel test fail your proposed one?

Video games shouldn't get special treatment in gender issues. Interactivity or no, gaming often deals with subject matter other mediums are familiar with. The Hero's Journey(much as I hate the very concept) has been applied to almost all of them.

 

[DataSnake]

I think the standard Bechdel Test works fine for Video Games in terms of narrative. I think a more interesting approach is simply to find out which games in fact DO pass all three criteria for a Bechdel Test.

So far I'm having difficulty coming up with anything except for Final Fantasy V's "sisters"

The thing about games (especially first-person games) is, you'd be hard pressed to find ANY two characters having a conversation that isn't either with or about the protagonist, except enemy chatter when you're stealthing it.

 

[Stephen St.]

If the Bechdel test ain't universal, what's the point of having the Bechdel test? What if a work's video game adaptation(which for the sake of argument is faithful to the source material) which passes the Bechdel test fail your proposed one?

Video games shouldn't get special treatment in gender issues. Interactivity or no, gaming often deals with subject matter other mediums are familiar with. The Hero's Journey(much as I hate the very concept) has been applied to almost all of them.

Well but is the Bechdel test important because it's a good test, or because it's so baseline it's almost comical, but still fails often enough? My idea was to recreate a baseline test that would be easy to agree on, because it's very basic.

The problem with directly applying the Bechdel test is that videogames have a structure very different from films. Sure the same tropes exist, but the worlds are ususally much, much more extensive. Take a non-linear RPG: All kinds of NPCs may stand around in the streets and chat, do they count?

I think if we want to evaluate a game, we need a way to focus on the main storyline, because that is what transports the message. Hence I tied the test to the Hero's quest.

 

[Delerien]

Games that fail your Test include:
Tetris
Pac!man!
Europa Universalis (Although I had war declared on me from Countries that had a female ruler so it might actually pass)
Euro Truck Simulator
Sim City
Dance Dance Revolution
Trackmania

Anyway I don't really think a test like that is suited for Videogames in general. RPGs maybe.

 

[aozgolo]

Games that fail your Test include:
Tetris
Pac!man!
Europa Universalis (Although I had war declared on me from Countries that had a female ruler so it might actually pass)
Euro Truck Simulator
Sim City
Dance Dance Revolution
Trackmania

Anyway I don't really think a test like that is suited for Videogames in general. RPGs maybe.

By this standard many books and films can fail as well. There are several that either entirely eschew any human characters at all or are solely focused on one single character throughout the entirety. It's obvious some games are not nominees for evaluation under this test as they are generally arcade-y or lack characters at all, but there is a significant enough amount of games out there with real narrative and characters that can easily be considered under the standard model.

 

[Delerien]

By this standard many books and films can fail as well. There are several that either entirely eschew any human characters at all or are solely focused on one single character throughout the entirety. It's obvious some games are not nominees for evaluation under this test as they are generally arcade-y or lack characters at all, but there is a significant enough amount of games out there with real narrative and characters that can easily be considered under the standard model.

Obviously documentaries for example would fail the Bechdel test simply because it's not meant for them. But I think it's much more common for games than films to forgo any human interaction. Entire genres like Strategy and Simulation can easily produce good games without having humans ever portrayed as anything but mere numbers.
Such a test might be a fun Idea but it has it's limitations.

 

[Hero in a half shell]

I think the standard Bechdel Test works fine for Video Games in terms of narrative. I think a more interesting approach is simply to find out which games in fact DO pass all three criteria for a Bechdel Test.

So far I'm having difficulty coming up with anything except for Final Fantasy V's "sisters"

The thing about games (especially first-person games) is, you'd be hard pressed to find ANY two characters having a conversation that isn't either with or about the protagonist, except enemy chatter when you're stealthing it.

So the revised Bechdel test for videogames should be:

1. It has to have at least two women in it,
2. who shoot each other,
3. about something besides a man.

Funky.

 

[MysticSlayer]

So, what do you think? Is that test usefull?...If no, is there another short test that might be usefull?

I think rigidly trying to hold to the Bechdel test is problematic. Of course, it does sort of highlight the lack of autonomy that lot of women have had in entertainment, but at the same time it poses problems in that:

1. It limits narrative options. There are simply some stories where women aren't going to be present, and if they are not to a great enough extent to pass the Bechdel. A lot of war movies have soldiers in complete isolation, and since women have only recently been permitted in combat roles here in the U.S., movies that try to follow soldiers from the U.S. are many times going to fail the Bechdel test, even if there was nothing sexist about them.

2. It misses the fact that every conversation between those women may only be there to make them look stupid. In the end, yeah, you passed the Bechdel test, but yes, the movie is still sexist.

Personally, I think the Bechdel test only serves to make us aware of the issue, which I'm sure we're all aware of by now (otherwise, what rock have you been living under?). After that, the guidelines only serve to prevent actually thinking about and analyzing the work in any meaningful way, and it can seriously stifle discussion when everyone just goes "Bechdel test!" Once we're aware of the issue, we need to take a more critical look at the work: analyzing it, thinking about it, and discussing it, all realizing that the standards we use to judge one film may change during the next film, simply because the standards set for one film may not be able to be carried over to another film.

The same applies to any attempts at creating a similar test for video games.

 

[Stephen St.]

I think rigidly trying to hold to the Bechdel test is problematic. Of course, it does sort of highlight the lack of autonomy that lot of women have had in entertainment, but at the same time it poses problems in that:

1. It limits narrative options. There are simply some stories where women aren't going to be present, and if they are not to a great enough extent to pass the Bechdel. A lot of war movies have soldiers in complete isolation, and since women have only recently been permitted in combat roles here in the U.S., movies that try to follow soldiers from the U.S. are many times going to fail the Bechdel test, even if there was nothing sexist about them.

2. It misses the fact that every conversation between those women may only be there to make them look stupid. In the end, yeah, you passed the Bechdel test, but yes, the movie is still sexist.

Personally, I think the Bechdel test only serves to make us aware of the issue, which I'm sure we're all aware of by now (otherwise, what rock have you been living under?). After that, the guidelines only serve to prevent actually thinking about and analyzing the work in any meaningful way, and it can seriously stifle discussion when everyone just goes "Bechdel test!" Once we're aware of the issue, we need to take a more critical look at the work: analyzing it, thinking about it, and discussing it, all realizing that the standards we use to judge one film may change during the next film, simply because the standards set for one film may not be able to be carried over to another film.

The same applies to any attempts at creating a similar test for video games.

Well, I agree, rigidly holding anything to the test is problematic. It would be very wrong to use the Bechdel test to try to assess any individual work by itself. I think it's well established that a Bechdel test will never tell you if a movie is sexist or not, much less whether it's a good movie or not.

The question is, are we aware of the issue with regards to gaming? The discussion surrounding Jim's lates Jimquisition suggests to me that there is considerable debate on what the issue is. If we have a standard that we can agree is not too demanding, it might help give the discussion a better footing.

 

[MysticSlayer]

Well, I agree, rigidly holding anything to the test is problematic. It would be very wrong to use the Bechdel test to try to assess any individual work by itself. I think it's well established that a Bechdel test will never tell you if a movie is sexist or not, much less whether it's a good movie or not.

The question is, are we aware of the issue with regards to gaming? The discussion surrounding Jim's lates Jimquisition suggests to me that there is considerable debate on what the issue is. If we have a standard that we can agree is not too demanding, it might help give the discussion a better footing.

In that case, games have bypassed the need for a test at this point. With so many people opening up discussion on it, we've effectively become aware of the issue, even if a lot of people refuse to accept the premise that video games are nowhere near as fair to female characters as they should be, and even if a lot of people dismiss it because of some red herring about male representation. At the very least, though, we are trying to analyze the works themselves at this point, and while some choose to reject, dismiss, or ignore the issue (whether they have a justifiable reason to do so or not), many also have started coming to the conclusion the women aren't well represented and have started looking for ways to improve that. In that kind of environment, I'm pretty sure we've passed the point where the test is needed to raise any form of awareness. Yeah, there might be a few more issues to bring up, and Jim's Vertigo video brings up one of those issues we can look at, but I think we've become mostly aware that a problem at least could exist.

 

[Panthera]

I don't think you can really apply the test much to video games without too many caveats and exceptions. What does it say when a game like Fallout New Vegas fails (if you pick a male main character), when the reason for it is there's no dialogue that the player character isn't part of, so if you play as a man there's never going to be women talking to each other? Nothing at all due to the way the game is designed. So many games are built around the player character in a way that makes you either have to come up with too many different set of standards, or go with a blanket "any game where the main character can be male auto-fails, therefore male characters are sexist" statement that obviously doesn't make much sense.

 

[Stephen St.]

In that case, games have bypassed the need for a test at this point. With so many people opening up discussion on it, we've effectively become aware of the issue, even if a lot of people refuse to accept the premise that video games are nowhere near as fair to female characters as they should be, and even if a lot of people dismiss it because of some red herring about male representation. At the very least, though, we are trying to analyze the works themselves at this point, and while some choose to reject, dismiss, or ignore the issue (whether they have a justifiable reason to do so or not), many also have started coming to the conclusion the women aren't well represented and have started looking for ways to improve that. In that kind of environment, I'm pretty sure we've passed the point where the test is needed to raise any form of awareness. Yeah, there might be a few more issues to bring up, and Jim's Vertigo video brings up one of those issues we can look at, but I think we've become mostly aware that a problem at least could exist.

Fair enough. I don't know if I quite agree that no more attention is necessary. While we can certainly try to analyze the works themselves, keeping track of where the general trend is going seems important. After all, most criticism isn't that individual games or game makers are sexist, but rather that the trend is. And this is also where most of the debate seems to take place.

I don't think you can really apply the test much to video games without too many caveats and exceptions. What does it say when a game like Fallout New Vegas fails (if you pick a male main character), when the reason for it is there's no dialogue that the player character isn't part of, so if you play as a man there's never going to be women talking to each other? Nothing at all due to the way the game is designed. So many games are built around the player character in a way that makes you either have to come up with too many different set of standards, or go with a blanket "any game where the main character can be male auto-fails, therefore male characters are sexist" statement that obviously doesn't make much sense.

Yeah, I see your point. It's certainly hard to pinpoint an effective test. One of the main problems seems to be differentiating between playable characters and NPCs. I think you can apply the test I have outlined in the OP to NPCs whether or not there is dialogue. So even if all Dialogue involved the PC, you can still tell whether a character has a certain independence rather than just being a plot device.

The question is, what do we do when the PC itself is female? Movies don't have to deal with that eventuality, we have. I'd say that empty slate characters shouldn't be considered, since they are purely vessels for the player, which he shapes himself. Everything that has an identifiable female PC should probably get a pass automatically.

 

[Ryotknife]

....most RPGs that have at least two female party members would pass the test. Even Jim's test doesn't really show anything as his parameters for his test were extremely strict.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

Frankly I'll be fine with the game if it has a woman in it and she has two breasts. If the breasts were to engage each other in conversation about something other than a man, that would be fine too. Though thinking about it, talking breasts might require some explanation.