A Beheading In France

Agema

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Explaining actions doesn't excuse the actions. And even then, that specific example is tenuous - Russia oppresses Chechnea, so a Chechen kills a Frenchman over a cartoon. I mean, be honest - do you think his nationality or religion had more to do with the murder?
I think violence such as Chechnya has witnessed can desensitise a lot of people to violence. There can be a lot anger and injustice, a pride in one's people at fighting for themselves, a taste for vengeance, and so on. And that's not just going to be Russia, it's going to be a more general mindset. And that will cause people to be tipped more easily into violence.

As far as I'm aware, most governments set the curiculum. But even that aside, the differences are:

-One approach is secular, one is religious, and the former tends to allow more debate

-The government doesn't assassinate people who object to its education standards (there's no equivalent to a fatwah in the governments that you mentioned)
It's all a spectrum. No Muslims like their prophet being insulted, many would like to stop it happening, and a tiny few might be moved to violence. Few people like their country being insulted, many would like to stop it happening, and a tiny few will be moved to violence. What really is different here?

We can debate what history should be taught, and how it should be taught, but that's a world of difference from what actually happened, where the mere act of showing Muhammad prompted murder. I mean, be honest - replace Muhammad with any religious figure from any other religion. Do you think this thread would exist?
Let's go back to something Terminal Blue mentioned, about all the trans people murdered every year, many for no apparent reason other than being trans. Why do you think that happens? Who gets so offended about someone else happening to be non-gender conforming, and why aren't there headlines and debate threads every time it happens?

So, I'd sort of distill this down into the bottom line that some people are unusually inclined to violence. They are because of all sorts of individual psychological and societal reasons. If you piss these people off the wrong way, they might attack or even kill you. The oddity is not that some Muslims do this, it's that we pick on Muslim violence as somehow especially noteworthy, when in fact it goes on all the time in all sectors of the populace for all manner of reasons. And it's the same sorts of things we see when we look at these people, irrespective of what they killed for: correlations with deprivation, insecurity, abuse, violent upbringings, drug use, petty crime and so on.
 

Terminal Blue

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I'm sure it wasn't your intent, but this argument smacks of relative privation fallacy.
In order for it to be a fallacy, it's not enough just to have a comparison, there has to be a fallacious conclusion.

In this case, I'm not comparing two different types of murder and concluding that, because one is more prevalent and requires less provocation than the other, then the less prevalent type of murder is acceptable or tolerable.

I'm pointing out how incredibly annoying it is to see this kind of incident treated as supremely important, let alone indicative of cultural trends, and to see national demonstrations and heads of state talking about crisis when, in fact, similar things happen all the time (but only to certain types of people), because it's difficult to escape the conclusion that what warrants the vastly different reaction in those cases is the type of person to whom they happen (and of course, the type of person who perpetrates such violence).
 
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CM156

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I'm pointing out how incredibly annoying it is to see this kind of incident treated as supremely important
I would think that teachers being beheaded because of pictures they showed in a class lesson on propaganda is kind of a big deal. That's just me, though.

let alone indicative of cultural trends
Back in September, someone tried stabbing people outside the former Hebdo Building.
Like, a month ago as of today. How many "isolated instances" until we get a trend?

On a somewhat related note:

I remember being in Middle School and learning about the EU. We were told that within the decade, Turkey would join the EU as a modern, westernized, secular nation.
Guess my teacher was wrong about that. Among other things.
 
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Secondhand Revenant

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I would think that teachers being beheaded because of pictures they showed in a class lesson on propaganda is kind of a big deal. That's just me, though.
Yikes did you really cut out part of his post to change "It annoys me this is treated as supremely important when similar things happen all the time to other groups of people" to "It annoys me this is treated as supremely important"?

Why are you so scared of addressing the point he actually made, that minorities like LGBT people suffer violence for other people's cultural beliefs and we don't get the same reaction
 

CM156

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Why are you so scared of addressing the point he actually made, that minorities like LGBT people suffer violence for other people's cultural beliefs and we don't get the same reaction
Yeah, that was probably a bad way to crop the post.

It's because I don't disagree: I think violence against LGBT people is just as detestable. This isn't a zero sum game. I also haven't seen many threads here made by anyone on the topic of anti-LGBT violence. Probably because everyone here would be in agreement. Just a guess.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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Yeah, that was probably a bad way to crop the post.

It's because I don't disagree: I think violence against LGBT people is just as detestable. This isn't a zero sum game. I also haven't seen many threads here made by anyone on the topic of anti-LGBT violence. Probably because everyone here would be in agreement. Just a guess.
I mean I'm pretty sure it's with regards to the nation as a whole, not just the escapist. When you see it, you don't end up seeing the entire nation talking about the nation's Christian problem etc. If someone is treated poorly for gender non-conforming stuff, we (western countries in general) don't end up widely condemning them and their culture and anyone vaguely associated. The leader of the nation doesn't make statements on it and if they did, they'd be highly qualified statements making sure not to offend those associated with the perpetrators and not condemn their religion etc. Which says a lot about how it's not just some sort of basic value thing here that's pushing people to react to this degree
 

Hawki

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I think violence such as Chechnya has witnessed can desensitise a lot of people to violence. There can be a lot anger and injustice, a pride in one's people at fighting for themselves, a taste for vengeance, and so on. And that's not just going to be Russia, it's going to be a more general mindset. And that will cause people to be tipped more easily into violence.
Even if we assume that all of that is true, it's still violence targeted at one particular person over one particular thing.

It's all a spectrum. No Muslims like their prophet being insulted, many would like to stop it happening, and a tiny few might be moved to violence. Few people like their country being insulted, many would like to stop it happening, and a tiny few will be moved to violence. What really is different here?
Keep this statement in mind for the next quote.

Let's go back to something Terminal Blue mentioned, about all the trans people murdered every year, many for no apparent reason other than being trans. Why do you think that happens? Who gets so offended about someone else happening to be non-gender conforming, and why aren't there headlines and debate threads every time it happens?
So you haven't done this directly, but youve more or less equated all violence being equivalent - equivalent scale with equivalent reasons. Let's look at them.

Yes, no-one likes being insulted. We can go down the spectrum to people who carry out violence. However, Islamic terrorism gets a lot of the spotlight because the vast majority of terrorism is Islamic on the global scale. This is a fact. At this point you might go "well what about right wing terrorism," and yes, in places like the US, right wing terrorism is more deadly than Islamic terrorism. But again, to that I say:

a) This thread isn't about right wing terrorism.

b) No-one is worried about hurting the feelings of the alt-right

c) Global vs. local - what's the bigger issue?

Now, you equted this to the trans issue. I'm not sure what this exactly has to do with anything, but okay. To your post:

-There may be some trans individuals who are murdered solely for being trans, but that isn't the be all and end all. Part of why trans people are over-represented in murders is that factors put them at risk. As in, you're more likely to be homeless, ergo, more likely to be murdered. I'm not excusing this, but that isn't equivalent to Islamic terrorism, which in these cases, is highly directed.

-There's no shortage of headlines, I'm not sure what you're going on about there.

-If we're doing this on sheer scale, again, Islamic terrorism is a much larger issue. Trans people being murdered becomes an issue when you consider the per capita rate. In absolute rates, it's dwarfed.

-If you're asking about debate threads, I dunno. Reminder that I didn't create this thread. I rarely create threads. I didn't bother creating this thread because I didn't think there'd be much to talk about. More fool me I guess.

So, I'd sort of distill this down into the bottom line that some people are unusually inclined to violence. They are because of all sorts of individual psychological and societal reasons. If you piss these people off the wrong way, they might attack or even kill you. The oddity is not that some Muslims do this, it's that we pick on Muslim violence as somehow especially noteworthy, when in fact it goes on all the time in all sectors of the populace for all manner of reasons.
It is especially noteworthy when you consider the scale.

Again, there's about 4000 religions in the world. We can probably boil that down to a handful. But when one religion commits over 90% of all terrorist attacks, do you think there might be a connection between that religion and the figure? Or is it a coincidence?

And look, Islamic terrorism isn't the biggest problem from where I'm standing. My first opinion on this thread was "the religion of peace strikes again," because I've had 20 years to be desensitzed to this kind of violence - same attacks, same people dying, same excuses, I'm done. I'll gladly suffer continued attacks in exchange for the larger issues being focused on. But somehow, it's gone down the route of "whataboutism" or "not all Muslims." And I agree, of course not all Muslims. But when I've vented my spleen at, say, Christianity, I never get "not all Christians," and when I've expressed discontent at Israel, I don't get "not all Jews," but with this, suddenly the conversation changes when it comes to Islam.
 

Gordon_4

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In order for it to be a fallacy, it's not enough just to have a comparison, there has to be a fallacious conclusion.

In this case, I'm not comparing two different types of murder and concluding that, because one is more prevalent and requires less provocation than the other, then the less prevalent type of murder is acceptable or tolerable.

I'm pointing out how incredibly annoying it is to see this kind of incident treated as supremely important, let alone indicative of cultural trends, and to see national demonstrations and heads of state talking about crisis when, in fact, similar things happen all the time (but only to certain types of people), because it's difficult to escape the conclusion that what warrants the vastly different reaction in those cases is the type of person to whom they happen (and of course, the type of person who perpetrates such violence).
It occurs to me the kind of shithead who murders for a shitty cartoon is also the kind who would murder because they don’t think of Trans or other LGBTQI+ people as, well, people. They’re petty, insecure cock weasels who I would piss on if they were burning.

Post a thread here for every murdered trans person. Let us see the flood of murders being perpetrated against our fellow citizens who’ve committed no crime other than being who they are.
 

fOx

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Gotta be honest, violence in any form is repulsive to me, but it shouldn't be legal to criticize or mock religion. So I would argue that there really isn't any right side in this argument.
 

happyninja42

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Gotta be honest, violence in any form is repulsive to me, but it shouldn't be legal to criticize or mock religion. So I would argue that there really isn't any right side in this argument.
Fuck religion.
 

CM156

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Satinavian

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Sadly, I very much disagree. It is a zero sum game in that everyone of us only has finite time each day to devote to things happening around us. This includes politicians, legislators, journalists and everyone else who tries to create a better society in some way. When something like this comes along and grabs everyone's attention it will inescapably takes attention off of the terrible deeds done against other people. Every time we focus on the violence against critics of Islam, we have to take focus off the violence towards LGBTQ people and other minorities (if there was one to begin with). It is also a major problem, zero sum game or not, when scattered and infrequent violence against critics of Islam can get a weeks news cycle worth of first page attention, while frequent, systemic violence against LGBTQ people barely garners weekly reporting.
That would be a good argument if violence against LBGTQ+ would be more prevalent but just less reported. But taking Germany as example, over the last years we one murder each in 2013 and 2018 and on average less than 20 violent incidents per quarter.
And a significant number of those crimes could count as Muslim extremist violence as well. There is a reason the number of bodily harm incidents against gays basically doubled from 2015 on.
 
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stroopwafel

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So a muslim terrorist beheads a French teacher in broad daylight and people are still making excuses for muslims. Truly unbelievable. Some people are really naive to a fault. Islamic beliefs are irreconcilable with western values so at best there will be an uneasy co-existence with segregated communities, mosques and islamic schools. Everything they believe and teach is intolerant and often militant towards western values. Partcularly the ones SJW's in particular find so important like women's rights, minority rights, gay rights etc. These oppressive and intolerant beliefs is the very reason why every islamic country is a hellhole. Even Turkey, you could argue the last 'secular' predominantly muslim country, is slowly slipping back. Islam just rejects civil liberties in all of it's form.

France has had a barrage of non-stop islamic terrorism in the last five years where innocent children and bystanders were blown up, brutally shot or deliberately ran over by a truck for which France tried to make excuses, patiently explain etc but it seems like something has now finally snapped.