A Beheading In France

[meiam]

If the Nazis really do want to exterminate all Jews, wouldn't they just be up-front about it, not deny it, and explicitly claim that they'd like to do it again?
Or is the thinking that they're just being sneaky, pretending to be nice, and then, when they get power, drop the facade and do evil things?

If they've been denying that it happened all along...

Some people are trying to excuse their (or their organization) pass support for Nazi, one prominent cases in France is the "Front national" the 2nd biggest political organization atm, whose founder (the father of the current leader) was a Nazi sympathizer and occasional holocaust denier in more recent time. The idea goes something like "Yeah I supported the Nazi, but they really weren't bad people, they never killed that many Jew, those are just lies to discredit us/our idea".

People that support Nazi don't necesserly support wiping out other nationality, they might just seek preferential treatment for their group, with potential some form of system to just kick out the nationality they dislike. So someone could be Nazi sympathizer without being okay with the holocaust. Some people also, ridiculously, try to claim that the Jews were trying to revolt/take control of the country and that the holocaust was just a civil war and that the dead were enemy combatant.

I think it's ridiculous to equate denying the holocaust to making cartoon of the prophet and just goes to show how large the gap is (although personally I think neither should be illegal if one had to be illegal I think it goes without explanation why cartoon should not be the illegal one).

 

[Terminal Blue]

Or is the thinking that they're just being sneaky, pretending to be nice, and then, when they get power, drop the facade and do evil things?

Yes. That's generally how fascism works.

For the most part, neo-Nazis like the holocaust. They think the holocaust was a good thing. They see the existence of Jews as a racial and ideological threat to white people, and they think the world would be a better place if all the Jews were killed. But they also know that most people don't feel that way. Most people, in their minds, don't have the strength of will to embrace what needs to be done. Not yet anyway.

When neo-Nazis deny the holocaust, they know full well that it's a lie. They do it as a way of discrediting what they see as the dominance of the Jewish narrative, because once you believe that the holocaust was made up or exaggerated then you're likely to ask the question of who invented it, and you're likely to come to the answer that it was Jews. Discrediting the holocaust is a convenient way to foster hostility and eliminate sympathy for Jewish people. There's no requirement for logical consistency, because by the time people are in a position to point out the hypocrisy they'll be on their way to the gas chambers already.

Neo-Nazis talk fairly openly about the holocaust among themselves. They only deny it when they know they're being watched.

In broader white supremacist circles, as well as other anti-semitic political enviornments (like Islamism or certain strains of far left thought) there are people who genuinely think that the holocaust didn't happen, or that it's just a plot made up to make Jews more sympathetic or to justify the existence of the state of Israel or to make white people feel ashamed of their white identity. There's a significant degree of overlap between holocuast denial and other forms of conspiratorial thinking (reptilians, the illuminati, flat earth, Qanon). That's because a lot of people come to these kinds of beliefs out of a kind of misplaced and cognitively biased anti-authoritarianism.

But the actual neo-Nazis absolutely know what they are doing.

 

[Agema]

What??? No, he doesn't. How do the two compare? Holocaust denial isn't just about the insult it causes to others.

They do from the perspective of free speech and the right to voice opinions that people will find offensive.

You are right that Holocaust denial usually isn't just about the insult it causes to others. Are you confident that's also true of people who publicly mock Mohammed - particularly bearing in mind the wider context of the many people (some on these forums) who believe that Islam is incompatible with Western society?

 

[Dreiko]

In broader white supremacist circles, as well as other anti-semitic political enviornments (like Islamism or certain strains of far left thought) there are people who genuinely think that the holocaust didn't happen, or that it's just a plot made up to make Jews more sympathetic or to justify the existence of the state of Israel or to make white people feel ashamed of their white identity. There's a significant degree of overlap between holocuast denial and other forms of conspiratorial thinking (reptilians, the illuminati, flat earth, Qanon). That's because a lot of people come to these kinds of beliefs out of a kind of misplaced and cognitively biased anti-authoritarianism.

But the actual neo-Nazis absolutely know what they are doing.

How does the "white guilt" bit factor in here? I always thought jewish people were white. It's like saying you can't have a white Buddhist or something.


Like, I get the religious persecution angle here because it's the same thing with the christians and the romans feeding em to lions, but I never got why people claim jewish people aren't white. And I definitely never felt any guilt for what the nazis did either despite being white, because during the holocaust they also starved to death 10% of the population of my country and I heard tales of it from my grandad growing up all the time so if anything I need some of that holocaust victim privilige over here too lol.


Is this going on that old school thought where mediterranean folks aren't really white either? Or what?

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

They do from the perspective of free speech and the right to voice opinions that people will find offensive.

You are right that Holocaust denial usually isn't just about the insult it causes to others. Are you confident that's also true of people who publicly mock Mohammed - particularly bearing in mind the wider context of the many people (some on these forums) who believe that Islam is incompatible with Western society?

I mean I certainly think for many of them it's trying to insult and also send a message that Muslims aren't welcome, which... I mean I'd still say it falls in the category of insult although the motivations behind it are pretty bad. I do think there's a magnitude or difference though when it comes to Holocaust denial and why people want to rewrite history there though. I don't see mocking Muhammed as at attempt to sanitize the Nazi image or pretend that a genocide didn't occur to rework the narrative of the past. I absolutely think there's a fair bit of bigotry involved in why someone wants to insult them this way, I still think the level of the action is different though.

 

[MrCalavera]

I always thought jewish people were white.

Cool. Have you met any white nationalists?

 

[Dreiko]

Cool. Have you met any white nationalists?

Not anyone that I knew was one, no. I don't think there's that many of them out there lol. Though I guess it's technically possible I met someone who was that on a pure probability % and they just never disclosed that fact. I doubt most of em would.

 

[MrCalavera]

Not anyone that I knew was one, no. I don't think there's that many of them out there lol. Though I guess it's technically possible I met someone who was that on a pure probability % and they just never disclosed that fact. I doubt most of em would.

It was more meant as a rhetorical question. Most white nationalist don't think of jews as "whites".

 

[Dreiko]

It was more meant as a rhetorical question. Most white nationalist don't think of jews as "whites".

Yeah but they're white supremacists so their logical faculties are already compromised based on that alone so them having other wrong thoughts is not surprising.

I presume the poster I quoted was basing what I was curious about on something more than the ravings of irrational people, because basing anything on just that much is as good an exercise in futility as I've ever come across.

 

[Shadyside]

Well it's not like France is a stranger to beheading.

 

[Gordon_4]

I agree with you here. There should not be a crackdown the likes of which France is carrying out. It seems scattershot and like the French government wants to be seen as doing something, rather than actually doing something good.

See I’d have thought that would have backfired the instant they accidentally accosted someone in a wetsuit. Which is another reason I never saw the point in developing full body swimwear on its own: wetsuits exist.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I always thought jewish people were white.

Apparently only when they're Mary and Jesus.

 

[Hawki]

How does the "white guilt" bit factor in here? I always thought jewish people were white. It's like saying you can't have a white Buddhist or something.

CRT drives itself into knots finding out where Jews sit on the hierarchy of oppression. Keep up with the times.

But being more serious, "Jews are white" seems like a misnomer. In that "Jew" refers to both an ethnographic group of people, as well as a religion that people outside said group can convert into. But white supremacists do have a problem with Jews because...fuck it, no-one said white supremacists were obliged to make sense.

 

[Thaluikhain]

How does the "white guilt" bit factor in here? I always thought jewish people were white.

...

Is this going on that old school thought where mediterranean folks aren't really white either? Or what?

More or less, yeah. Growing up, I thought Jews were white, cause the ones I knew looked white. But "white" can include or exclude whoever you want. Mediterranean people, like you said, it used to also exclude Irish, and before them the Scots as well. In the UK Poles aren't white.

Like you say, the whole thing is deeply irrational.

 

[CM156]

I always thought jewish people were white

Our friends of the Jewish faith operate in a quantum state of being both white and non-white at the same time.

 

[Dreiko]

CRT drives itself into knots finding out where Jews sit on the hierarchy of oppression. Keep up with the times.

But being more serious, "Jews are white" seems like a misnomer. In that "Jew" refers to both an ethnographic group of people, as well as a religion that people outside said group can convert into. But white supremacists do have a problem with Jews because...fuck it, no-one said white supremacists were obliged to make sense.

The way in which it refers to an ethnicity is in the same way the word "celt" or "slav" does. There's a ton of such ethnic groups in europe but they're all white at the same time.

 

[Iron]

How does the "white guilt" bit factor in here? I always thought jewish people were white. It's like saying you can't have a white Buddhist or something.


Like, I get the religious persecution angle here because it's the same thing with the christians and the romans feeding em to lions, but I never got why people claim jewish people aren't white. And I definitely never felt any guilt for what the nazis did either despite being white, because during the holocaust they also starved to death 10% of the population of my country and I heard tales of it from my grandad growing up all the time so if anything I need some of that holocaust victim privilige over here too lol.


Is this going on that old school thought where mediterranean folks aren't really white either? Or what?

I dunno, man

Pnina Tamano-Shata - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Are you Polish?

Our friends of the Jewish faith operate in a quantum state of being both white and non-white at the same time.

cringe. I dislike people that claim to be jewish yet have nothing to do with it, swapping their "color" at their convenience.

 

[Kwak]

I've completely missed out on how much this event exploded into what it is now.

So what's been happening that I've missed since the killings of both victim and killer.

The muslim world has decided to defend the right to be violently offended by satire, resulting in an escalating feud between France and Turkey.

France, Turkey And The Charlie Hebdo Cartoons: What's Behind The Dispute?

The increased friction follows the beheading of a French teacher after he showed his class caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad. The two countries have sharp foreign policy differences.

www.npr.org

Charlie Hebdo cartoon mocking Turkish leader Erdogan sparks furor

Turkish officials on Wednesday railed against French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo over its cover-page cartoon mocking Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and accused the publication of sowing “the seeds of hatred and animosity.”

www.foxnews.com

So chillness abounds.

 

[Hawki]

The muslim world has decided to defend the right to be violently offended by satire, resulting in an escalating feud between France and Turkey.

And in an alternate universe...

 

[Hawki]

Two people beheaded and third person dead in suspected terror attack in Nice

Three people have been killed after a man shouting "Allahu Akbar" launched a suspected terror attack inside a church in Nice before police shot dead a gunman in Avignon

www.mirror.co.uk

Welp.