A Defense of Thorin's Claim on the Treasure of Erebor
- Thread starter Nasrin
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The elves actually have a legal right to their property. The jewels did exist, though to what individual they were to be given was never stated. The jewels were actually the property of the elves who had a contract with the dwarves of Erebor to fit them to a necklace and a crown, a service for which they would receive payment. Then the mountain was infested with a dragon and that never happened. So really the elf king is just using a valid complaint to get more out of the situation( like someone complaining at a super market trying to get an extra loaf of bread) and there may in fact have been some form of financial restitution in the contract in case the jewels were lost or damaged or the job took longer than expected.
As for the men of Laketown, people seem to forget that they are the descendants of the Kingdom of Dale and thus at least part of the treasure is theirs because the dragon stole it from their city too, on top of the fact that their newly elected King is responsible for actually killing the dragon and thus making the treasure available to Thorin and CO.So again the argument could be made that they solved a pest problem and want payment.
As to Bilbo's share of the treasure being in the form of goods and not cash. You are making the assumption there is a standardized currency. Instead I think it's safe to say "cash" means money to hand, which likely includes gems gold bars and coins, possibly jewelry. At the very least it could be argued that the term "cash" is ambiguous and so open to interpretation. Furthermore Bilbo is not an employee but a partner in an expedition and so able to enter into equal negotiations with his partners to determine his share unless otherwise stated in the contract. Though I'll give you that just taking it was underhanded and kinda shady, something I think Bilbo admits in the book.
On the issue of the "if any" in the contract, that's in reference to the possible fact that there may be no profit at all from this expedition and so it is possible Bilbo may earn nothing. Not that if there is profit, Bilbo will earn only a 14th share or possibly nothing.
As for the men of Laketown, people seem to forget that they are the descendants of the Kingdom of Dale and thus at least part of the treasure is theirs because the dragon stole it from their city too, on top of the fact that their newly elected King is responsible for actually killing the dragon and thus making the treasure available to Thorin and CO.So again the argument could be made that they solved a pest problem and want payment.
As to Bilbo's share of the treasure being in the form of goods and not cash. You are making the assumption there is a standardized currency. Instead I think it's safe to say "cash" means money to hand, which likely includes gems gold bars and coins, possibly jewelry. At the very least it could be argued that the term "cash" is ambiguous and so open to interpretation. Furthermore Bilbo is not an employee but a partner in an expedition and so able to enter into equal negotiations with his partners to determine his share unless otherwise stated in the contract. Though I'll give you that just taking it was underhanded and kinda shady, something I think Bilbo admits in the book.
On the issue of the "if any" in the contract, that's in reference to the possible fact that there may be no profit at all from this expedition and so it is possible Bilbo may earn nothing. Not that if there is profit, Bilbo will earn only a 14th share or possibly nothing.
You are close. Thorin does indeed say that he will honor his word and give the people of Laketown what he promised. The problem is that the elves show up and they start demanding treasure too. Thorin, who I'm sure you remember was thrown in prison for no reason by the elves, will have none of this. He says that the elves must leave, completely, before he will even consider talking with Bard. Seeing as the elves are helping keep the people of Laketown safe and alive, this cannot happen. And so, there's the problem.Diablo2000 said:
A fun read, and a reminder of why life is so much more complicated with drawn out laws and contracts and whatnot.
Laketown actually aided the Dwarfs though, thats what provoked Smaug. They armed and supplied Thorin and his group knowing he was going to the Mountain, obviously that had the potential to piss the Dragon off if he failed.TravelerSF said:
The way I see it the rulers of Laketown share the responsibility of Thorin provoking the Dragons rampage.
I haven't bothered watching the second two films since the first was so unbelievably shit, but have they, and their fans, really managed to miss the point so badly? The whole point of the argument in the book was that no-one was in the right. The dwarves were being greedy dicks who didn't want to give up anything they had no matter who it might "rightfully" belong to (this is essentially the origin of the "dwarves love gold" stereotype so prevalent in fantasy these days). The elves were basically just being arrogant dicks who didn't like dwarves (threw them in prison for no reason, then demanded payment off them once they had some treasure). The humans were (anyone sensing a theme here?) dicks who just wanted a piece of the pie. In particular for the elves and humans, note that both thought the dwarves were dead and rocked up with an army hoping to clean the place out before anyone else had the chance; they only started trying to pretend to have legitimate claims after the dwarves refused to cave in to threats from two hostile armies. And finally, Bilbo explicitly admitted that he knew he had no right to the Arkenstone and deliberately stole it rather than claim it as his share because he thought it was the best way to end the conflict. He was the only one doing what he thought was right rather than acting out of greed, but he was also the only one who never even pretended to have a legitimate claim.
The best part is that not only does the book makes it very clear that no-one is in the right, it never even tries to resolve things. The argument only avoids turning into outright war due to the common enemy of the goblins, and with Thorin dead afterwards the argument is never continued and therefore never actually resolved. The survivors had evidently had a bit of sense knocked into them and decide to be more friendly (although the presence of a dwarven army now meant the elves and humans had no chance of taking things by force, and said dwarves already had their own stuff and hadn't spent decades living as vagabonds dreaming of their lost treasure, so the circumstances were rather different), but it was very much a case of "We've all just survived a big battle and there may be more coming, let's just start from scratch and share a bit" rather than anything to do with pre-existing claims.
The best part is that not only does the book makes it very clear that no-one is in the right, it never even tries to resolve things. The argument only avoids turning into outright war due to the common enemy of the goblins, and with Thorin dead afterwards the argument is never continued and therefore never actually resolved. The survivors had evidently had a bit of sense knocked into them and decide to be more friendly (although the presence of a dwarven army now meant the elves and humans had no chance of taking things by force, and said dwarves already had their own stuff and hadn't spent decades living as vagabonds dreaming of their lost treasure, so the circumstances were rather different), but it was very much a case of "We've all just survived a big battle and there may be more coming, let's just start from scratch and share a bit" rather than anything to do with pre-existing claims.
What I'm most confused about is people blaming Bard for showing up at Erebor with an Elven army at his back, given that was blatantly not his choice and if it weren't for him there wouldn't have been any negotiation at all. He was hardly in a position to shoo away Thranduil and his entire army, was he?
Anyway, isn't this all ignoring the fact that, King or not, there's no way Thorin is entitled to literally 100% of all goods and material wealth within Erebor just because of his claim as King. Being King doesn't mean you don't get to own everything just because it's within your kingdom.
Also, if Bilbo really wanted to solve the situation, why didn't he just take his 14th of the treasure as pure cash and then given it straight to the people of Laketown? He doesn't seem too bothered by the wealth himself, so...
Anyway, isn't this all ignoring the fact that, King or not, there's no way Thorin is entitled to literally 100% of all goods and material wealth within Erebor just because of his claim as King. Being King doesn't mean you don't get to own everything just because it's within your kingdom.
Also, if Bilbo really wanted to solve the situation, why didn't he just take his 14th of the treasure as pure cash and then given it straight to the people of Laketown? He doesn't seem too bothered by the wealth himself, so...
Maybe, if the gold coins were a fiat currency [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money]. If they are, what government is guaranteeing their face value? The defunct kingdom of Erebor? If nothing or no one is guaranteeing their face value, they're valuable only for their gold content, not as cash. They become "goods" at that point.
By this logic The Lord of the Rings is actually the epic tale of Sauron trying to reclaim his stolen property.
Oh yeah, because it worked out so well taking the one thing that the increasingly unstable dwarf wanted most of all.COMaestro said:
Besides, their actual plan was then "Use the bargaining chip to get him to hand over mounds of gold and treasure", so I'm sure the actual logistics of getting a whole bunch of gold past the walls wasn't a bigger problem than "How do we get this asshole dwarf to pay up for spectacularly ruining everything?"
Ah, it had been a tad too long since I had seen the movie it seems. So actually yeah, Laketown was totally prepared to take a risk with poking inside a dragon's nest.J Tyran said:
I could be wrong here, but while Thorin was being a giant ass about the treasure he refused to award Bilbo his 14th share because had had not found the Arkenstone, the very task his contact had originally stated. Admittedly Bilbo could have handed the stone over and asked for his share but he was concerned for his friend's sanity/health. Giving Thorin the Arkenstone would likely have made him worse and Bilbo would probably have had no sway at all. The Arkenstone was the highest value and easiest bargaining chip to use.Geo Da Sponge said:
But anyway, this whole thread is over analysing a simple idea: Thorin was mad with greed and had reached an unstable and dangerous state, going so far as to threaten his own with death. He'd made various goodwill statements to people, contractually binding or otherwise, and then like a douche had gone back on them. Considering the amount of gold he had there was no reason why he couldn't hand over enough to keep everyone happy and still be the richest git in Middle Earth. It was quite obvious that he recognised the Elves' gems as being their property and he witheld them in pure spite. Although elves are huge gits too.
Except these White shits of who gives a fuck are complete and utter fabrication by Peter Jackson to give the elves a reason not to look like the complete corpse scavanging vultures that they are. In the books, Thranduil refused to pay proper prices for the services of the dwarves of Erebor because he was funky like that and that's what led to the conflict between them. When the dragon dies he takes his army there for one reason: to rob the mountain dry before anyone else gets there. He suffers from greed just as much as thorin does.Whatislove said:
And while the books make it clear that no one is in the right, there is one tiny difference between thorin and the rest of the fucking lot: thorin is guilty just of not wanting to give away from his treasure (and i say again: HIS and HIS ALONE as rightfull heir to Thror. Middle-Earth follows a clearly feudal system, and by that logic he king owns EVERYTHING in his kingdom, so Thorin owns EVERYTHING in Erebor). The elves and humans are wrong because they thought: "13 dwarves and a mountain filled with gold? Time to get me some of that sweet loot!". They are thieves pure and simple, and Thorin, though morally wrong in his actions, has every god damn right to tell them to fuck off home when they show up with a fucking army demanding he hand over his wealth.
And just a side-note: I was weird like that and decided to give this trilogy a chance and even enjoyed the first movie and bits of the second. But after seeing the third ... I regret ever thinking there was a chance of this beeing good. My god when everything is said and done this trilogy sucks.
Well, the gems actually aren't a complete and utter fabrication by Peter Jackson, they were appropriated from other things in the lore.XDSkyFreak said:
More precisely, since Peter Jackson cannot use anything explicitly from the Silmarillion (or anything that isn't the hobbit or lotr), he adapted the story of King Thingol. The white gems were one of the silmarils, Thingol gave the gems to the dwarves to be set in a necklace but the silmaril (the gems) corrupted the dwarves who no longer wanted to part with the completed necklace (for which Thingol was going to pay a hefty sum). Thingol killed the dwarves that made the necklace and was then killed before he could escape the fortress.
This was JRR Tolkiens story about why Elves and Dwarves have such animosity.
And, in fact, Peter Jackson's adaption is very true to the story of Thingol. It was in fact Thror who was too greedy and kept the jewels (and necklace). Thranduil was going to pay the agreed amount.
The Hobbit (the book) is not exactly true to Tolkien's later, more complete universe. JRR Tolkien made several revisions to the hobbit, changing several chapters, and even began re-writing the entire book. You can read the 3 unfinished chapters of the new hobbit in the histories of middle earth, those 3 chapters were already the length of the entire first edition hobbit novel.
Peter Jackson was just keeping true to his established adapted universe, and I quite like the White gems of Lasgalen adaption.