A discussion on Masculinity and Men

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DevilWithaHalo

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What does Masculinity mean to you?

What do you want Masculinity to mean?

How have others defined Masculinity to you? Do you agree or disagree? Why?

Do you think Masculinity is important for the self identification of men?

Do you think being Masculinity and being a man are the same thing?

What does a "man" mean to you?

What do you want a "man" to mean?

How have others defined a "man" to you? Do you agree or disagree? Why?
 

omega 616

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May 1, 2009
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Jesus, is this who wants to be a millionaire?

I'm just going to be a bit more broad, rather than answer everything you just asked.

To me, it's more old school than the modern man. I think fight club sums up my thoughts on the matter, "We're consumers. We're by-products of a lifestyle obsession. Murder, crime, poverty -- these things don't concern me. What concerns me is celebrity magazines, television with five hundred channels, some guy's name on my underwear. Rogaine, Viagra, Olestra." "So fuck off, with your sofa units and your green stripe patterns. I say never be complete. I say stop being perfect. I say let's evolve and let the chips fall where they may".

Edward Norton is the typical modern man, caught up in "it's just...when you buy furniture, you tell yourself: that's it, that's the last sofa I'm gonna need. No matter what else happens, I've got that sofa problem handled. I had it all. I had a stereo that was very decent, a wardrobe that was getting very respectable. I was so close to being complete." and Brad Pitt is the hyper masculine one "It's a blanket, just a blanket. Now why guys like you and I know what a duvet is? Is this essential to our survival? In the hunter-gathered sense of the word? No. What are we then?" and
You were looking for a way to change your life. You could not do this on your own. All the ways you wished you could be...that's me! All the ways you wished you could be...that's me! I look like you wanna look, I fuck like you wanna fuck, I'm smart, capable and most importantly, I'm free in all the ways that you are not.
.

Look up on youtube for "fight club alpha male" if you're more interested. I know that is more about alpha and beta males but isn't the whole masculine thing THE strong point of an alpha male?

Maybe it's all wrapped up in "tradition", men were the rocks of the family, made the money, confident and never cried.
 

EeveeElectro

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Aug 3, 2008
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OT: It's such a vague question with man answers, someone will probably get offended along the way so I'll just say what a "real" man is to me.

He doesn't have to feel the need to impress me with his tales of going to the gym. Hell, he doesn't even have to go to the gym if he doesn't want.
He goes for walks with me when the weather is nice.
He isn't afraid to show his sensitive or romantic side.
He won't feel emasculated cooking for me or cleaning up after himself.
He doesn't expect me to carry his weight and do everything for him.
He doesn't stick his penis in every passing vagina unless that's what everyone involved wants.
He doesn't toy with people's emotions.
He doesn't see women as disposable penis cosy's.
He doesn't make a woman fall in love with him to then fuck her over and hurt her feelings.
He doesn't intentionally hurt others.
If he does hurt others, he apologises and puts things right.
He doesn't manipulate women into bed.
He shows his feelings and is honest when the time calls for it.
He treats a nice, sweet girl with the respect she deserves.
He admits to his mistakes and faces them head on. He "takes it like a man" and realises when he fucked up.
He acts like a decent person because he is.

It sounds like a lot to ask for but it isn't. Sadly I know too many men who I can't consider "real" men because they seem to lack basic feelings which don't make you a real person, never mind a man.
 

Coppernerves

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Seems to me that masculinity is that which is expected of men.

I think at the moment that means:

1. Physical fitness and strength
2. Maturity
3. Ability to hold liquor
4. Ambition
5. Emotional resilience and poise
6. Confidence
7. Ability to adapt plans and reorganise on the go
8. A bit of grooming to stay neat and clean, but not more.

I'm not keen on all of these being so valued.
1. is going obsolete as industry gets more mechanised.
I say men should be fit for the sake of cranial blood-flow and longevity, but extraneous muscle shouldn't be expected of those without a good use for it.

3. Manifests in people drinking more than they really enjoy just to show off, at expense of their health.
It'd be nice if people would just drink enough to loosen up a bit and express themselves.

4. Puts pressure on the less competent men to compete against, and thus impede, the more competent ones.
People should be expected to compete against their past selves, not each other.

5. Causes guys to suppress their emotions, making things worse.
"Deal with it", isn't supposed to mean "stop complaining".

As for "what is a man", I say it's an adult comfortable with having a male body.
Adulthood these days seems to just mean being 18 or above.
Seems silly to me, I wish there was some kind of maturity test, which if you pass, gets you a new name that actually tells people something about you, and the status of adulthood.
 

Silvanus

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DevilWithaHalo said:
How have others defined a "man" to you? Do you agree or disagree? Why?


...Seems reasonable.

OT: Well, "masculinity" implies a number of (fairly stereotypical) traits. Strength, protectiveness, muscular-ness. Rather generic action-hero characteristics.

If you're asking what I value in a man, then the answer's essentially the same as what I value in a woman, or in anybody.
 
Mar 26, 2008
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It's a really tough question and one that singer/song-writer Joe Jackson eloquently posed back in 1982 in his song 'Real Men'.

I think he was touching on what could be seen as the decline of masculinity which I think continues to this very day. I'm not knocking how women have got more independent, I have daughters and I think it's a good thing, but the flipside is that men have started to lose their identity. The suicide rate in men in the Western world has gone through the roof and a lot of it has to do with the crisis of identity. I think a key question is who are teaching the men how to be men? Women can go to various sources to find out more about themselves and get the full picture. What have men got? Men's Health magazine? Sure it can tell me how to get a great six pack, chest wax and fuck like a porn star, but is that all their is to being a man?

I'm a thirty-something male and I'm old enough to see how certain skills that were part of being a "man" are being lost. My grandfather could fix ANYTHING and if not he'd give it a red hot go. He got this knowledge from his father, his father's father, etc. He then passed this down to my dad. My dad can fix a lot of things but god bless him he hasn't passed much of that down to me. I'm hardly a handy man and most of my male friends would rather pay some guy big $$ for something they could, with a bit of effort, fix themselves. Now I wonder what it is that I have that I can pass on to my son. Other than my love and time, not a fucking lot in terms of a practical sense. Men used to get shit done. Now we're just hamstrung, confused and lulled in complacency.

One thing I find ironic is that there are an increasing number of women displaying the same masculine traits, such as aggression, that feminists have decried men for. I've read studies that show female instigated violence is on the increase, as is husband-bashing (yes, I laughed too when I first heard the term).

I apologise for the rant but it's a issue I'm very passionate about.
 

Genocidicles

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To me, masculinity means a lot of things.

But the main ideal that sticks in my mind, and that I always try and live up to, is to be as tough and stubborn as a bull.

Never back down, never surrender, never admit defeat and never let anything get to you.
 

ClockworkPenguin

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Mar 29, 2012
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Regarding 'what is a man'. I'm going for the simple answer; an adult male. Are you male? Have you reached adulthood? Congratulations, you're a man. That is literally all that is required, any additional criterion other people insist on is just their wish for how they want you to behave, with an attempt to shame you into adopting it. Fuck 'em. If you want to do all that stuff, go ahead, but you don't have to (in order to be a man that is - you may well be legally obligated to follow certain behaviors.)

Whilst evee electros post is probably well meaning, it's also bullshit. There is nothing on that list that could not be done by someone who wasn't a man. That's not how a 'real man' behaves. That's how anyone who isn't an arse behaves. And 'real men' can fall into both arse and non-arse categories.

Masculinity is something else. More a case of traits associated with men, or much more common in men. There are certain body types and facial structures indicative of higher testosterone levels etc. On a behavioral level it often involves greater aggressiveness and risk taking (hence 'grow a pair', 'man up' etc. being used to encourage risky behavior).

But again it also often gets changed to mean whatever social norm we feel like enforcing at the moment.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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My definition of masculinity is an image of Kratos sitting on a throne looking bored & pissed.

Teehee. No, I don't have a definition of masculinity. I can think of several outdated definitions for the word but nothing I live by.
 

Shock and Awe

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Alright, first off I'll say that just because I say something is an ideal masculine or manly trait, does not mean I do not believe a woman can't or shouldn't have it. A vast majority of these are good traits regardless, but are more masculine traits in my book. Anyway,

A man should,

Possess the ability to fight by any means that may be applicable to his situation. If guns are available where you are, learn to use them. Knives? Learn to handle them. Hand to hand? Everyone needs at least the basics. This is crucial for the next thing,

Be willing to defend others. A man must be willing to put himself between danger and the innocent/vulnerable.

Be unwilling to commit violence unless the above condition is met.

Be able to survive in the wild for a fair amount of time with basic supplies.

Be able to support his family.

Possess discipline in all things.

Maintain a healthy level of physical fitness

These are just some basics, I could go on. Men must have masculine traits, but also feminine ones to balance themselves out. Without one the other is worthless.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
This is all you need to know about manliness.
You all knew it was coming at some point in this thread.
 

Terminal Blue

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DevilWithaHalo said:
What does Masculinity mean to you?
Out of context. Nothing.

The word really doesn't mean anything specific at all, but denotes a vague sense of impression or affect. Even then, the precise affective dimension is context dependent.

I guess one generalization I'd be willing to make is that masculinity seems to be related in some sense to social anxiety about the position of men, and it tends to come into play at times when those concepts are being discussed on a wider level.

DevilWithaHalo said:
How have others defined Masculinity to you? Do you agree or disagree? Why?
I've heard many hundreds of attempts to define masculinity, although most can be fitted into several broad trends. From worst to best and also (coincidentally) in broad historical progression.

Essentialist approaches tend to see masculinity as defined by some singular attribute which all men possess. This never, ever works because they tend to focus on accounts which are very obviously culturally constructed and aren't present in all societies, let alone all individuals.

Positivist approaches tend to say that masculinity is whatever men do. Again, it doesn't work because if it was then the whole concept would be meaningless. Nothing a man did could not be considered masculine, in this case, even if it was profoundly non-normative or "sissy".

Normative approaches tend to view masculinity as some kind of normative standard for men, i.e. what men should be like. This is an order of magnitude better, but still basically doesn't work because it implies a kind of monolithic social consensus which very clearly doesn't exist. Norms only really make sense in particular contexts.

Political/feminist approaches to masculinity tend to view it as an ideological formation which naturalizes male dominance, making it appear natural, deserved or correct although the precise strategies can change across time and context. This goes a step beyond the normative approaches but the outcomes are still relatively fixed in a way which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. How men win can change, but somehow they still always win.

Discursive/Semiotic approaches to masculinity vary enormously but ultimately come down to the notion that masculinity cannot be defined on its own. It only makes sense either in relation to wider systems of arbitrary meaning (e.g. X is masculine because it's not feminine) or in the specific political context of its use. as far as I'm aware, this is the only theoretical model of masculinity which actually works.

DevilWithaHalo said:
Do you think Masculinity is important for the self identification of men?
Depends on the men, presumably.

DevilWithaHalo said:
Do you think being Masculinity and being a man are the same thing?
See the essentialist and positivist approach to masculinity, above.

DevilWithaHalo said:
What does a "man" mean to you?
In what sense?

"Man" can function as an anatomical observation, a means of social signification, a fairly ludicrous claim to particular attributes or qualities (positive or negative). It's nowhere near as vague as masculinity, to be sure, but you still kind of have to specify the context.

DevilWithaHalo said:
What do you want a "man" to mean?
Do you mean this in some sort of terminological sense, or in some kind of social-transformative sense where I can wish that all men were big and beefy and super-cool so that the world fitted with my insane prejudices.

You do have to be kind of careful not to confuse those two.
 

JimB

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DevilWithaHalo said:
What does "masculinity" mean to you?
A set of social expectations that are ill-defined and that serve no useful purpose I can think of.

DevilWithaHalo said:
What do you want masculinity to mean?
The state of possessing male traits.

DevilWithaHalo said:
How have others defined masculinity to you?
They haven't, except by inference when describing certain traits as unmanly, leaving me to guess what it is based on what it isn't.

DevilWithaHalo said:
Do you agree or disagree?
Disagree.

DevilWithaHalo said:
Because telling me what something isn't is an utterly useless approach.

DevilWithaHalo said:
Do you think masculinity is important for the self identification of men?
To some, yes. To others, no.

DevilWithaHalo said:
Do you think being [masculine] and being a man are the same thing?
No. To be a man is to be adult and male. To be masculine is to have a trait that is typically associated with men.

DevilWithaHalo said:
What does a "man" mean to you?
An adult, male human.

DevilWithaHalo said:
What do you want a "man" to mean?
An adult, male human.

DevilWithaHalo said:
How have others defined a "man" to you?
They haven't, except by inference when describing certain traits as unmanly, leaving me to guess what it is based on what it isn't.

DevilWithaHalo said:
Do you agree or disagree?
Disagree.

DevilWithaHalo said:
Because telling me what something isn't is an utterly useless approach.
 

Quadocky

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DevilWithaHalo said:
What does Masculinity mean to you?
Much like any cultural construct, not much besides context given. Currently it seems to be used as an excuse to be a deplorable human being.

What do you want Masculinity to mean?
The giving of empathy.

How have others defined Masculinity to you? Do you agree or disagree? Why?
I typically see masculinity defined by the lapse of empathy. Which I would most certainly disagree.

Do you think Masculinity is important for the self identification of men?
Obviously not as they tend to be unable to define it.

Do you think being Masculinity and being a man are the same thing?
They are tangentially related at least in popular context. Like a man is not defined unless they become 'a man'.

What does a "man" mean to you?
A person.

What do you want a "man" to mean?
A person.

How have others defined a "man" to you? Do you agree or disagree? Why?
A person who is male sex or gender.
 

Thaluikhain

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DevilWithaHalo said:
What does Masculinity mean to you?
Well...depends on the context, but usually a set of traits that a given society has attributed to men.

DevilWithaHalo said:
What do you want Masculinity to mean?
Er...not with you here, unless you mean what traits I want to see associated with men. In which case I don't want to see specific traits assigned by gender.

DevilWithaHalo said:
How have others defined Masculinity to you? Do you agree or disagree? Why?
Generally, a bunch of macho rubbish based on outdated concepts that may or may not have been true at some earlier point in time.

Taking a gender, and then lumping them with any traits, however, is a bad idea.

People should worry about being good people, not about being good members of their gender. Virtues don't become vices because of your anatomy.

DevilWithaHalo said:
Do you think Masculinity is important for the self identification of men?
Well...if you mean "Are there men who see it as important?" than yes. This is a very harmful idea though.

For example, you have the idea that a real man is a provider for his family. Only, the US caused a financial crisis that spread across the world, leaving lots of men unemployed.

Now, nobody is going to say "a real man determines the economic policy of a distant country he's never visited", but unless he does, he can't guarantee being employed.

DevilWithaHalo said:
Do you think being Masculinity and being a man are the same thing?

What does a "man" mean to you?

What do you want a "man" to mean?

How have others defined a "man" to you? Do you agree or disagree? Why?
A man is simply an adult of the male gender. You have people wanting to tie it into masculinity, or assume that the two are inseparable, but that's rubbish, and rather unhealthy.
 

Rolaoi

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Masculinity is the set of aesthetic principles which society has assigned to match up with the male sex. It's almost entirely wordless, and a simple definition is illusive and prone to selling the idea short. It's felt more than known. Being based on culture, it's essence is prone to morphing from country to country, state to state, city to city, and man to man. I thought about this question over a shower trying to find the words I wanted to put down, but I mostly came out seeing masculinity as a different color of femininity. I suppose I want to say that masculinity is being better than the male sex. It's violent aggression measured by logical thought. A strong mind in a strong body to better the family in the way his tribe describes what's good or better. Selfish strength is not masculine, I think. We are, after all, social animals.
 

Nickolai77

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Programmed_For_Damage said:
I'm a thirty-something male and I'm old enough to see how certain skills that were part of being a "man" are being lost. My grandfather could fix ANYTHING and if not he'd give it a red hot go. He got this knowledge from his father, his father's father, etc. He then passed this down to my dad. My dad can fix a lot of things but god bless him he hasn't passed much of that down to me. I'm hardly a handy man and most of my male friends would rather pay some guy big $$ for something they could, with a bit of effort, fix themselves. Now I wonder what it is that I have that I can pass on to my son. Other than my love and time, not a fucking lot in terms of a practical sense. Men used to get shit done. Now we're just hamstrung, confused and lulled in complacency.
I think this could equally be down to how technology has grown increasingly sophisticated since your grandad's day. Car engines for instance are far more complex and generally more reliable, you can't really tinker with modern car engines unless you're an expert. Household products tend now to be run on digital software rather than raw mechanics, making them difficult to fix if they go wrong. There probably has been a cultural shift as well though away from making do and mending to disposing and buying new products, due to consumerism and technological change. I think though this has affected women as well, for instance my grandmother could stitch clothes but she barely passed any of her skills onto my mother.


OT: Masculinity to an extent is what you and society make of it- and is usually decided to be some sort of virtue depending on the values of society at that time. Historically this has generally been how capable a man is of defending and providing for his family, but now since the former is moot and the latter equally expected of women one can see how some say masculinity is in crisis. That said, I personally don't feel in any sort of crisis about my gender identity. It means i have certain features and traits, some of which are useful, some not so, but that doesn't bother me, nor does it seem to bother most men on a daily basis.
 

Candidus

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What does Masculinity mean to you?
Being aloof of small matters. Doing what you have to do for yourself or close ones with no regard for discomfort or inconvenience, without flinching and without complaining even in the privacy of your own mind. Further, I include: being physically strong. Capable of violence. Holding yourself above the judgements and repudiations of unknown people. Not taking the first or last share of anything (the specifics go on, and new ones have to be improvised in my best judgement of compliance with the 'masculine' pattern all the time).

What do you want Masculinity to mean?
As above.

How have others defined Masculinity to you? Do you agree or disagree? Why?
The only thoughts on the matter of masculinity that I respect well enough to remember are mine.

Do you think Masculinity is important for the self identification of men?
It's important to my own self identification.

Do you think having* Masculinity and being a man are the same thing?
No, although a born male has certain advantages; not least of all, a born male won't be ridiculed, put under a microscope or otherwise discouraged by various individuals and institutions for trying to assume the above mentality.

What does a "man" mean to you?
Born male, or later identifying as male.

What do you want a "man" to mean?
As above.

How have others defined a "man" to you? Do you agree or disagree? Why?
The only thoughts on this matter-- you know how this goes.
 

SmallHatLogan

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What does Masculinity mean to you?
An antiquated check list of what a man is "supposed" to be.

What do you want Masculinity to mean?
Don't care.

How have others defined Masculinity to you? Do you agree or disagree? Why?
See 1 and 2.

Do you think Masculinity is important for the self identification of men?
Do I think it should be important? No. Is it important to some men? Yes.

Do you think being Masculinity and being a man are the same thing?
No.

What does a "man" mean to you?
Depending on how you look at it either a person with a Y chromosome or a person who identifies as a man.

What do you want a "man" to mean?
Don't care.

How have others defined a "man" to you? Do you agree or disagree? Why?
Probably (for the first part), probably not (for the second part).