A discussion on Roguelikes.

[FrostDragon]

My lights were out. Darkness filled the air. The only light eminated from the slight glow of a mostly black CRT monitor.
My vision saw nothing. A +3 clairvoyance ring in my inventory still didn't help.
I moved one step. Out of the corner of my screen I see a 'C'.
Oh shit, I thought, as it blasted me to oblivion.

That intense, heart-pumping game? Rogue.

Contrast that with a scene a few evenings ago. Slenderman chasing me in the woods? Really? Slenderman? This isn't scary.
But for some reason, these types of games are given a name. That name? "Rogue-lites".

These games are NOTHING like Rogue. They have nothing to do with what Rogue stood for. Rogue stood for freedom. It stood for democracy. It was part of the era of video games where uniqueness was running out; where the American dream was being crushed by generic, sexist, racist games; where all of the rights won in the Civil Rights Movement fought for were regressing back to the Jim Crow laws in the world of computing. But Rogue worked to change that.

Slenderman? Rogue Legacy? FTL: Faster than Light? Bullshit. They want that racist era back. And they're fighting for it -- with a vengeance.

The term Rogue-Lite comes from a forum called "NeoGAF" by a poster by the name of spannicus. It was around the time that the first Unity Slenderman game was made. He, thinking the permadeath feature of the Slenderman game was similar to Rogue-likes, deemed it a "light rogue-like". "Like light beer, lol." This was obviously a mistake. And it came with dire consequences.

But let's go back to a simpler time...

I can still remember the first time I played ADOM. Shattered. Absolutely broken. Oh no, not the game, you understand, my nerves. The symbols on my screen relayed to me the greatest adventure I would ever undertake. The dark halls of the town's dungeon seemed to stretch on forever. I could almost hear the chittering of bats, my own slow, steady breathing, my footsteps padding along. Death could come at any moment. Suddenly, the hairs on my neck stood on end. A goblin approached. A flash of blades, a clash of steel, and I was dead. I knew then that this was the future of gaming. I had incredibly high hopes for this medium, this underdog of the genres we know as a "rogue-like".

I've always credited videogames as being hugely important towards the shaping of my personality, and I credit roguelikes with passing down the virtues of empathy and justice to me. You "modern gamers" may chortle to hear me say such a thing, but the ASCII on my screen was realer to me than any 3D graphics could ever dream of being.

The defilement of the roguelike is shown in excruciating detail by FTL. Deemed a "roguelike-like", this game has nothing in common with the originals, the classics, the games I loved. Rogue taught me about the values of freedom, ADOM aided my emotional development and Nethack taught me more about the world than a thousand encyclopedias. What did FTL teach me? Not to trust hype, that's what.

The problems with FTL are many. For example, other than the obvious unfortunate overtones - an all-white crew? No obviously female aliens? No trans protagonists? The incredibly othering effect that hostile aliens have? Haven't games matured? You'd never find this kind of thing in Rogue.

Rogue Legacy? Those are knights. This is nothing like Rogue AT ALL.

Slenderman has nothing in common with roguelikes either. It has no place for even being CONSIDERED related. According to the Berlin interpretation, the fact that there are NO ITEMS means it is definitely NOT a roguelike. Or a roguelikelike or a roguelite or a roguelikelite. Not to mention, you play as a non-PoC xenophobic idiot. It's obviously an allegory to Manifest Destiny.

So, we must ask the question - why the "rogue-lite", the "roguelike-like"? What is it about roguelikes that make people want to make sick mockeries of them? Well, I have a theory. And it may cause some controversy. But I've never been one to shy away from calling a spade a spade, and I fully intend to express my views here tonight.

Why do people like rogue-lites? Because they are imbeciles. The intelligence of the average gamer has dropped. I hate to say it, but it's true. Do the CoD kids today play Rogue? Do the FTL fans play ADOM? Have you ever heard of a Slenderman fan playing Nethack? Ever seen someone mention Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup in a Rogue Legacy fanclub? No. You haven't. I bet you -- yes you -- haven't even heard of Brouge.

I suppose I must accept this. Rogue was a flash of light, a miracle almost. Like Oskar Schindler, it was a one-off. We must speak it's name in hushed whispers, whispers of awe. An oasis in a sea of bigoted, hyper-masculine games, that I hoped would one day become an ocean. Sadly, no.

 

[ohnoitsabear]

I don't even know where to begin with responding to this post.

I guess I'll start by saying that I don't wholly disagree with you. I've dabbled in Rougelikes (especially a little game called IVAN, it's fantastic), and I do feel like it's a genre that really doesn't get enough attention. And it does irk me when games like FTL or Binding of Isaac get called Rougelikes.

That said, to say these games bear no resemblance to Rougelikes is simply untrue (except Slender, which I had never heard compared to a Rougelike until now). Sure, they don't have the very distinct turn based system that a Rougelike has, but they still share the randomly generated levels, permadeath, and focus on difficulty that makes Rougelikes stand out. The inspiration from Rougelikes is clear.

This is why I like the term Rouge-lites to describe these games. It adequately shows that they share many game design ideas with Rougelikes, but it acknowledges that there is a distinct difference between the two types of games.

Rougelikes have always been extremely difficult to get into, if somebody had ever even heard of them to begin with. It's not like the existence of Rouge Legacy or Spelunky suddenly made traditional Rougelikes less popular. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the existance of Rouge-lites has made more than a few people look into games like Nethack or ADOM. Maybe not most of the players, but probably enough that it has been a positive impact on the genre. At the very least, these games haven't gotten any worse or stopped existing because of these new trends.

And many of these Rouge-lites are good games. People have put a lot of thought and effort into designing and making these games, and many of the design ideas behind Rougelikes transfer very well into other genres.

Finally, just remember that just because you may not like a game does not make it a bad game, nor a game for dumb people, and somebody random person on the internet's enjoyment of a game really doesn't affect you one way or the other.

 

[DaWaffledude]

So... What is the point of this exactly? I mean, you're obviously taking the piss, but out of what, I can't tell.

 

[Neverhoodian]

I think someone needs to take off the nostalgia goggles for a sec. Either that, or I've missed the joke. This IS a joke, right? If not, I think a simple, "get off my lawn, you dern kids!" would have sufficed.

The problems with FTL are many. For example, other than the obvious unfortunate overtones - an all-white crew? No obviously female aliens? No trans protagonists? The incredibly othering effect that hostile aliens have? Haven't games matured? You'd never find this kind of thing in Rogue.

I wasn't aware an "@" sign was the be-all and end-all of diversity. If you ask me, games like Rogue were race profiling like a mofo. You're the letter "D?" Well then, you must be an evil dragon! "G?" Goblin scum. No, only the glorious "@" Master Race could be a hero!

 

[Exhuminator]

The name of this genre bothers me, because Rogue was actually a Beneath Apple Manor-like [http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2012/12/game-79-beneath-apple-manor-1978.html].

 

[briankoontz]

We could technically call the genre Dungeons and Dragons-like, since they simulate the dungeon crawling aspect of D&D. I speculate that the name "Rogue" derives not only from D&D, but from what the creator believes to be the most iconic D&D class for dungeon crawling, the Thief.

Amid the harshness FrostDragon has some good points, but it's hardly the fault of newer gamers that culture in general has regressed. Just think how horrifically terrible culture's going to be in 2050 when the global ecology will be in very bad shape. There's a reason that no discernable culture exists in the Mad Max movies, for example, or in the Borderlands games. If Mad Max is an apocalyptic culture then we're currently living in a pre-apocalyptic culture.

If you were teleported into a Mad Max movie, would it make sense to lament to the inhabitants about how much better things are where you come from? It doesn't help them a whole lot, that's for sure.

Rogue, Angband, NetHack, and the like were made by people who took Dungeons and Dragons very seriously, as opposed to the Monster Blasting approach of Neverwinter Nights 2 and many other modern games which claim to be inspired by D&D but are really terrible hack jobs trying to appeal to people who have no idea what Dungeons and Dragons is.

It's why so many people look with fondness to Baldur's Gate 2 and Planescape: Torment - those are games that take their worlds seriously. Modern Bioware lost it's heart many years ago, and it's left to relative newcomers like CD Projekt Red and Kickstarter projects to keep the love alive.

The best games are made by people who love what they're doing, love making the game they want to make, and want to make the best possible game. This doesn't guarantee success but without it success is impossible. Artistic success I mean, of course.

The amount of love present in games like Rogue, Angband, and NetHack cannot be adequately measured, putting corporate garbage like Call of Duty to shame, or would if EA and the like were capable of shame. Avalon is the best MMO in history in terms of raw features, far surpassing World of Warcraft, but hardly anyone's even heard of it and noone not willing to play a non-graphical game would ever give it a chance. Dwarf Fortress is this generation's version of Rogue in the spiritual way in which the OP means it, but Rogue was far more popular back in it's day than Dwarf Fortress is today, pointing to the subsequent cultural degradation much more so than graphical improvements.

Slender is not a rogue-like or rogue-lite. That's nonsense. It's straight survival horror. FTL and Rogue Legacy are two examples of modern rogue-lites and I agree with their fundamental difference from Rogue.

The OP stresses freedom, but what I experienced when playing NetHack and Angband was real danger. Real risk. Real excitement, something that pampered Save Scummers can't understand and players of Dark Souls only experience a pale imitation of.

In Angband the dungeon was SCARY. I was scared to play the game in a very different way from a Slender player is scared - my fear in Angband was that the game was stronger than I was. The game was too powerful, too strong, I was just an inexperienced college kid. This game *knew what it was doing* and I sure as hell didn't.

I was David and Angband was Goliath. Was I brave enough to be slaughtered time and again by a game which clearly wanted to break me?

Angband didn't give a shit about my feelings. It's dark secrets didn't want any part of me. I had to earn every little new bit of progress I made.

And because of that, I valued every bit of progress to a far greater extent even than Dark Souls players do.

Here's the difference - even Dark Souls WANTS you to play it. What makes a truly Rogue game is the game developer wanting to break the player's will - wanting the player to make the choice between loving the game and leaving the game.

If you don't love Angband, Angband wants no part of you.

Games like I Wanna Be the Guy mimic the difficulty of Rogue (albeit a difficulty based on manual dexterity instead of intellect) but lose the complex, secretive, magnificent world. That's why Dwarf Fortress is the closest modern equivalent - it has the fundamental elements of Rogue, despite the seeming difference in it not being a dungeon crawler.

Call of Duty is a prostitute, bought, used, and disposed of. People enjoy it but only a madman LOVES it. But people love Rogue, Avalon, and Dwarf Fortress - this love is worth far more than the yachts EA executives buy with their Call of Duty bling.

 

[Ed130 The Vanguard]

-snip-

What.

Ok, let me go though some of what I found confusing with this er, post.

Slenderman chasing me in the woods? Really? Slenderman? This isn't scary.
But for some reason, these types of games are given a name. That name? "Rogue-lites".

This is the first time I've heard of any Slenderman game being called a Rogue-lite.

The problems with FTL are many. For example, other than the obvious unfortunate overtones - an all-white crew? No obviously female aliens? No trans protagonists? The incredibly othering effect that hostile aliens have?

Errr,

And assuming a technorganic race like the Engi conform with our organic genders, shame on you! In fact, apart from the Rock (who have no major sexual dimorphism or at least one that can show up on such a small sprite) and presumably Crystal it's unknown if the Zoltan and Lanius even have genders as we know it.

The othering effect would be a serious charge if you know, the main opponents (the Rebels if you don't know) are exclusively human.

-SNIPED RANTING-

Right, I'll be over there. Behind that pillar.

backs away slowly, keeping both eyes on the OP

 

[Exhuminator]

We could technically call the genre Dungeons and Dragons-like, since they simulate the dungeon crawling aspect of D&D.

The implementation of the mechanics of the gameplay, not the subject matter, are what define this genre. There are rogule-like games that take place in space for example, outside the D&D paradigm.