A Doctor Who Question.

[Disaster Button]

This thread will probably have lots of spoilers in it regarding The Pandorica Opens, I know my post will. You've been warned.

I was wondering about some of the time travel aspects of the episode when I realised something didn't add up, to me anyway. The TARDIS exploding causes all the cracks in the Universe to appear through time, this bit is fine, but what I don't understand is the Doctor saying that every star will supernova at once at every point in time. So because the cracks were being seen from the past it means that event had already happened, so every sun in the past should also have supernova'd. Yet the Doctor and Amy's travels show that they hadn't. And I was just wondering how this was possible.

...Also, I'm having a bit of a dumb at the moment, what actually caused the Total Even Collapse leading to every star to explode?

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Simply put, the cracks are from an alternate future where the Universe is about to die, they appear through time as the balance between past/present/future break down. That's why they annihilate everything they touch.

All of what's happened is actually due to Amy, being the mental map for the Axis to set up the Doctor.

And of course, if Amy touches a crack...then the Axis plans fail, the Pandorica never exists...

Remember, the Doctor knows of the Pandorica as a fairy tale, despite already being imprisoned in it, so he knows it's real...

The Total Event Collapse is caused by time unravelling. Without Temporal Laws, Physical Laws like Gravity, Van De Waal's forces, Momentum, Acceleration can't exist, which collapses all the stars under their own weight/mass (which still can exist without Time).

 

[sephiroth1991]

When it comes to time travel in things i wouldn't try to think to much into it

OT:

Spoiler: I don't understand it either

However i don't understand how they can continue it, i mean isn't now the universe gone

 

[Disaster Button]

Simply put, the cracks are from an alternate future where the Universe is about to die, they appear through time as the balance between past/present/future break down. That's why they annihilate everything they touch.

All of what's happened is actually due to Amy, being the mental map for the Axis to set up the Doctor.

And of course, if Amy touches a crack...then the Axis plans fail, the Pandorica never exists...

Remember, the Doctor knows of the Pandorica as a fairy tale, despite already being imprisoned in it, so he knows it's real...

But didn't the Cybermen say all of the unvierses would be destoryed by the explosion?

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

OT:

Spoiler: I don't understand it either

However i don't understand how they can continue it, i mean isn't now the universe gone

No, the Temporal Universe is gone, the Mental/Emotional/Physical Universe still exists; it's just that it's in stasis apart from all the forces that were active (like Gravity) before the collapse.

How they get it back, well, you've got six days to wait.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

But didn't the Cybermen say all of the unvierses would be destoryed by the explosion?

Logically, they will be. But, logic isn't always right. It's sort of a ball of ...yeah, Timelord can fill that bit in.

 

[Disaster Button]

But didn't the Cybermen say all of the unvierses would be destoryed by the explosion?

Logically, they will be. But, logic isn't always right. It's sort of a ball of ...yeah, Timelord can fill that bit in.

Well, unless in an alternate Universe the explosion happened, all of their stars exploded, whcih caused the cracks to appear in our Universe which threaten its existance... or something?

 

[sephiroth1991]

OT:

Spoiler: I don't understand it either

However i don't understand how they can continue it, i mean isn't now the universe gone

No, the Temporal Universe is gone, the Mental/Emotional/Physical Universe still exists; it's just that it's in stasis apart from all the forces that were active (like Gravity) before the collapse.

How they get it back, well, you've got six days to wait.

Oh my head hurts

What does it mean, their is no time frame only the now

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Well, unless in an alternate Universe the explosion happened, all of their stars exploded, whcih caused the cracks to appear in our Universe which threaten its existance... or something?

Bingo, that's my betting on the way out. Why are there no ducks in the duckpond? Have you seen any ducks in the series? Ducks are OUR universe.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

What does it mean, their is no time frame only the now

Ok, take any reaction, like kinetic energy = half mass x velocity.
velocity=distance/time
Time doesn't exist, so it becomes zero.
so velocity = distance/0

The TARDIS has literally just divided by zero.

 

[Disaster Button]

Well, unless in an alternate Universe the explosion happened, all of their stars exploded, whcih caused the cracks to appear in our Universe which threaten its existance... or something?

Bingo, that's my betting on the way out. Why are there no ducks in the duckpond? Have you seen any ducks in the series? Ducks are OUR universe.

Hmm, I guess it works. It would explain why the stars in the past hadn't exploded, because the event hadn't happened in our universe and the cracks were caused by the other Universe's Tardis exploding. This also explains why the Cybusmen are here as some cracks can be travelled through so all they needed was one between our universes. I feel better now.

One more dumb question though, why did all the suns desplode themselves again?

 

[sephiroth1991]

What does it mean, their is no time frame only the now

Ok, take any reaction, like kinetic energy = half mass x velocity.
velocity=distance/time
Time doesn't exist, so it becomes zero.
so velocity = distance/0

The TARDIS has literally just divided by zero.

Spoiler

I'll try to make heads and tails of what you said.

I'll just go with the Doctor no longer exsists so all the bad things like earth bein' destroyed happen or happened.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

One more dumb question though, why did all the suns desplode themselves again?

No reactions over time can take place, therefore the suns fold in on themselves due to their mass. Most suns only keep going because their rate of energy conversion is enough to sustain their own gravity.

Caveat: This is VERY theoretical physics. I'm only a Maths geek.

I'll try to make heads and tails of what you said.

Rudy Rucker does some excellent books on Time-Travel theory, and I'd widely recommend Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance for the mental/social points.

I'll just go with the Doctor no longer exsists so all the bad things like earth bein' destroyed happen or happened.

Pandora's Box is an artefact in Greek mythology. The "box" was actually a large jar (πιθος pithos) given to Pandora (Πανδώρ&#945 ("all-gifted"), which contained all the evils of the world. When Pandora opened the jar, the entire contents of the jar were released, but for one ? hope.

Hope still remains.

 

[Disaster Button]

One more dumb question though, why did all the suns desplode themselves again?

No reactions over time can take place, therefore the suns fold in on themselves due to their mass. Most suns only keep going because their rate of energy conversion is enough to sustain their own gravity.

Caveat: This is VERY theoretical physics. I'm only a Maths geek.

Oh I know about how suns exist and that this could cause them to explode but how do you know that time has been obliterated?

sorry to keep bugging you, you don't have to respond if its annoying.

 

[MelasZepheos_v1legacy]

Been giving this extensive thought, and my only conclusion is that they are going to pull the old 'A Wizard Did It', in an attempt to write a dramatic conclusion they wrote themselves into a plot hole, but it doesn't make a great deal of sense.

Effectively they are trying to claim that time is both linear and non-linear, but that there are base points at which something must go the way it must otherwise events will be irrevocably changed. It doesn't make sense though, because why would the universe care which event happens one way on Earth? You can't have fixed moments in time without a linear progression, but then to change those events opens up every single question related with temporal paradoxes.

I would go on, but basically it doesn't make sense. If they manage to fix the time loop then because they've already established that it's an event effecting all of time it must either become a stable time loop, doomed to repeat for all eternity, or it will be totally fixed, but because they haven't gone through the events needed to fix it in the fixed time line, because it never happened, then they wouldn't have fixed it.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Oh I know about how suns exist and that this could cause them to explode but how do you know that time has been obliterated?

sorry to keep bugging you, you don't have to respond if its annoying.

Know, no. Theorising. If the cracks are from the TARDIS, then it's from an explosion of the Eye of Rassilon that powers the TARDIS. Given the TARDIS has already been used to shield from a Temporal Paradox (The Sound of Drums), it's most likely explosion is a temporal paradox event. Given that the TARDIS has been to both the beginning and the end of the Universe, that would alter history in such a way that it couldn't recover.

(For instance, if the Eleventh Doctor is frozen, the Valeyard can't exist, who can't save the Sixth([/i]Trial of a Timelord[/i], who can't save the Second(The Two Doctors, who can't let the Fifth cause life on Earth(Earthshock), who can't stop the Time War, who can't save the Master, who can't save Logopolis...duh duh duh duh)

So, removing the Doctor and letting the TARDIS explode would collapse the Universe around the Blinovitch Limitation, which probably means a Temporal Paradox explosion...destroying Time itself.

Easy analogy: You run a car on petrol(gasoline) and it leaks a little everywhere, one match and the whole world goes up in flames.

 

[Willwillwritehiswill]

Wibbly-wobbly, Timey-wimey...

 

[TimeLord]

The explosion of the TARDIS destroys the universe, the shockwave causes the cracks in the past and future before it has happened from the Doctor's perspective

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Effectively they are trying to claim that time is both linear and non-linear, but that there are base points at which something must go the way it must otherwise events will be irrevocably changed. It doesn't make sense though, because why would the universe care which event happens one way on Earth? You can't have fixed moments in time without a linear progression, but then to change those events opens up every single question related with temporal paradoxes.

AFAICT, Time is non-linear, but it has to travel through certain points (See Cold Blood) because these points are pivotal to moments of extreme importance to millions of lives. Time is like a river where it can run around rocks, but dams can change it's direction totally. The Universe doesn't "care" as such, it just runs with the least resistance, and some events are so critical that the Universe really doesn't want to go around them, so it'll smash through any blockage you put in it's way.

 

[Disaster Button]

Oh I know about how suns exist and that this could cause them to explode but how do you know that time has been obliterated?

sorry to keep bugging you, you don't have to respond if its annoying.

Know, no. Theorising. If the cracks are from the TARDIS, then it's from an explosion of the Eye of Rassilon that powers the TARDIS. Given the TARDIS has already been used to shield from a Temporal Paradox (The Sound of Drums), it's most likely explosion is a temporal paradox event. Given that the TARDIS has been to both the beginning and the end of the Universe, that would alter history in such a way that it couldn't recover.

(For instance, if the Eleventh Doctor is frozen, the Valeyard can't exist, who can't save the Sixth([/i]Trial of a Timelord[/i], who can't save the Second(The Two Doctors, who can't let the Fifth cause life on Earth(Earthshock), who can't stop the Time War, who can't save the Master, who can't save Logopolis...duh duh duh duh)

So, removing the Doctor and letting the TARDIS explode would collapse the Universe around the Blinovitch Limitation, which probably means a Temporal Paradox explosion...destroying Time itself.

Easy analogy: You run a car on petrol(gasoline) and it leaks a little everywhere, one match and the whole world goes up in flames.

I am so proud that I managed to understand all that. Although it is a great theory and one that actually works to quite a surprising degree, I fear that they might go for something simple like "A Wizard Did It" so as it can make sense to everyone. I hope they don't though, having faith in the audience's understanding would allow them to explain it very effectively.