A Little Less (dumb) Conversation
- Thread starter Shamus Young
- Start date
Yes, that is one of my big pet peeves. I should never be guessing what my character is going to say when I select a dialogue option.
They should also not make me be a dick to everyone just to have enough "evil points" to do an evil action later. I want morinth, yes. I don't want to have everyone else in the game hate me because I had to kick every puppy from the citadel to mordor to get enough points to do so.
Actually, you just need near max something. I got her when I was near max paragon. You just need to be able to resist her mind control with any option. It still forces you to max out one or the other, though. Yay for forcing metagaming in a game about role-playing?dogstile said:
Oh, I'm totally going to use this space to talk up two of my favorite games.
"I SHOULD BE ABLE TO LEAVE THE CONVERSATION WHENEVER I WANT."
Demon's Souls and Dark Souls totally do that. In fact you have pretty much 100% control of your actions when people are talking to you. If you walk too far away most of them have a "rudely leaving" and a "return after rudely leaving" line. Hmm... you could probably straight up attack them too, but I've never tried that.... hmm....
hush, I know D'sS and DS don't really have 'dialogue' as much as 'people talking at you' but I'm nothing if not biased.
"I SHOULD BE ABLE TO LEAVE THE CONVERSATION WHENEVER I WANT."
Demon's Souls and Dark Souls totally do that. In fact you have pretty much 100% control of your actions when people are talking to you. If you walk too far away most of them have a "rudely leaving" and a "return after rudely leaving" line. Hmm... you could probably straight up attack them too, but I've never tried that.... hmm....
hush, I know D'sS and DS don't really have 'dialogue' as much as 'people talking at you' but I'm nothing if not biased.
I love how shop owners will get snarky if you look at their wares and decide to not buy anything.burningdragoon said:
Few more:
"Humorous" voices are that. Once.
If you're not giving me an option because I'm too low, hint at that.
If you're not giving me an option because it's reliant on something else, don't hint at it.
The former stops me arsing about for ages trying to find out what's wrong, the latter highlights something I might not have ever considered (Easter eggs should be slightly hidden).
"Disingenuous Assertions" - Not even Victorian ACTORS speak like that.
If I need to collect 3 rat tails/dilithium crystals/plantpots of growing; I really don't need to know why beyond "This will really help/I need these/I need rid of you".
Give me one moment in the game when I can really lose my shit over something. Even if it cripples me later, give me a moment when I can actually let loose. Just one moment where I can go "YUSH, eat this you petty minded twerp!" or whatever cuss words I'm allowed to use.
"Humorous" voices are that. Once.
If you're not giving me an option because I'm too low, hint at that.
If you're not giving me an option because it's reliant on something else, don't hint at it.
The former stops me arsing about for ages trying to find out what's wrong, the latter highlights something I might not have ever considered (Easter eggs should be slightly hidden).
"Disingenuous Assertions" - Not even Victorian ACTORS speak like that.
If I need to collect 3 rat tails/dilithium crystals/plantpots of growing; I really don't need to know why beyond "This will really help/I need these/I need rid of you".
Give me one moment in the game when I can really lose my shit over something. Even if it cripples me later, give me a moment when I can actually let loose. Just one moment where I can go "YUSH, eat this you petty minded twerp!" or whatever cuss words I'm allowed to use.
![Fr]anc[is](https://eg-forums-escapist-data.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/data/avatars/l/93/93202.jpg?1620797781){kind=avatar}
"In BioWare games this is bad because the paragon / renegade system punishes you for "moral" inconsistency."
Protip: Paragon is always up, Renegade is always down. Smart ass comment aside dialog wheels and the skipping dialog button issue infuriate me. How is it that it hasn't been fixed?
Protip: Paragon is always up, Renegade is always down. Smart ass comment aside dialog wheels and the skipping dialog button issue infuriate me. How is it that it hasn't been fixed?
I agree with the parts about dialogue matching the choices *shakes fist* and access to the Codex/Quest log.
I should totally not have to take fifty notes on a quest.
I should totally not have to take fifty notes on a quest.
I'd like to add that if you're going to tie the "correct" dialogue option to a skill, or, if you must, a karma meter, don't highlight it or something. Planescape Torment did it right. Give me more options for higher skills or stats, and then let me choose the correct one from the ones added. Even if the choice is obvious, its still more satisfying than having it given to us.
"Ok, I've just about had my FILL of riddle asking, quest assigning, insult throwing, pun hurling, hostage taking, iron mongering, smart arsed fools, freaks, and felons that continually test my will, mettle, strength, intelligence, and most of all, patience! If you've got a straight answer ANYWHERE in that bent little head of yours, I want to hear it pretty damn quick or I'm going to take a large blunt object roughly the size of Elminster AND his hat, and stuff it lengthwise into a crevice of your being so seldom seen that even the denizens of the nine hells themselves wouldn't touch it with a twenty-foot rusty halberd! Have I MADE myself CLEAR?!"
I love Baldur's Gate.
Disingenuous assertions was that moment. It is, however, topped by:The_root_of_all_evil said:
"Ok, I've just about had my FILL of riddle asking, quest assigning, insult throwing, pun hurling, hostage taking, iron mongering, smart arsed fools, freaks, and felons that continually test my will, mettle, strength, intelligence, and most of all, patience! If you've got a straight answer ANYWHERE in that bent little head of yours, I want to hear it pretty damn quick or I'm going to take a large blunt object roughly the size of Elminster AND his hat, and stuff it lengthwise into a crevice of your being so seldom seen that even the denizens of the nine hells themselves wouldn't touch it with a twenty-foot rusty halberd! Have I MADE myself CLEAR?!"
I love Baldur's Gate.
Yeah, but you know it would have been better with "this bullshit". Disingenuous just seemed to turn the moment against Shephard.PureIrony said:
Compare/Contrast your example, Dexter's "I own you", "I am your Father", "This is Sparta!" or "He is the One."
If you can get that one moment - and it can be like Tali's blushing acceptance or Rimmer's "Smoke me a kipper" - then you've not only sold the dialogue, but the character and, quite possibly, the game.
Wake up, Mister Freeman, wake up and smell the ashes.
I'm going to disagree with you on this one. If Shepard had said something like "I've had enough of your bullshit!" it would have just been another Renegade interrupt. "Disingenuous assertions" elevated that moment to something memorable, even if it doesn't sound as much "bad ass action hero" as the former option would.The_root_of_all_evil said:
I think you guys are taking that whole summary of dialogue choice to an extreme. this is more of a case of noticing the bad, but forgetting the good. those dialogue tests that shamus proposed are made. But you cant be perfect, specially in a game MADE 50% of dialogue selections n stuff. And you cant be perfect when people can interpret things so differently from individual to individual. in the ME things, i only 3 or 4 times got a thing i didnt expect. the renegade for the reporter? knew it was gonna be bad from the dialogue. not kill bad, but punk bad. as well as many paragon stuff. of course there will always be a thing here n there that yoll be like OH DAMN IT i didnt think it would be THAT bad or THAT idioticly good. and the problem really is that youll remember that stupidity, but forget the other 90% that went more or less like you chose. the attack option in dialogue choice IS sth i want fixed thou...
The worst experience I ever had with BioWare's summary wheel was the first Mass Effect where the tabloid reporter jumps Shepard coming out of the elevator for an interview. I was doing fine until I selected the option "Time to Shut You Up!" (which I don't believe is marked as being Renegade or Paragon specifically). I thought it'd be some witty repartee that would leave her speechless. Pretty shocking to instead see Shepard punch a reporter right in gut. Worse, I was playing with an audience, who were all just as shocked as I was as to what had just transpired.
That last one.
ESPECIALLY that last one.
Seriously.
That last one is brilliant.
I kind of agree with your other points, but ho boy, that last one. Bioware- take note.
ESPECIALLY that last one.
Seriously.
That last one is brilliant.
I kind of agree with your other points, but ho boy, that last one. Bioware- take note.
I agree with every damn point in this list.
Although i imagine most of the people who enjoined mass effect dialogues and put thought in choosing answers does.
Although i imagine most of the people who enjoined mass effect dialogues and put thought in choosing answers does.
Well the big problem Shamus is that Bioware is pretty much into "do nothing" desicians that don't really influance much except maybe a sidequest here or there. No matter your desicians or moral compass all of the same basic events take place the exact same way.
People have this vision of games where you can make all of these meaningful desicians with equal, but differant content coming from each one, and the game winding up being entirely differant based on what you choose to say or do. Right now, no company has wanted to invest the time, effort, or resources into doing that, especially for a very long game. The technology for it exists, especially in games with a fairly sandbox approach to begin with, but nobody has really wanted to go there.
In the case of games like "Mass Effect" or "The Old Republic" your storyline isn't going to change much based on what you do. What's more there is a deliberate effort being made to prevent one path or another from giving an undue advantage. Being able to make fights easier by say blowing a minion or boss away during dialogue with one moral choice or another would make that desician advantageous and give you an advantage over someone who made the other desician.
Likewise you can pretty much guess that a dialogue desician that would change the purpose of the NPC or plot development (which is usually pretty shallow and predictable) isn't going to turn out that way. To be honest I think Bioware is screwing with people intentionally with the whole "what you pick, isn't what comes out of the guy's mouth" schtick.
To be honest though my big problem with Bioware is that I increasingly feel like a moron playing their games, since your character rarely picks up on the most obvious subtexts, asks the right questions, or presents reasonable, oftentimes obvious, alternative solutions to various problems. In general if you play the "bad" path you are pretty much going to kill people or do nasty things for da lulz, if you play the "good" path your going to be a frakking moron with no sense of scope. In a Bioware game your pretty much given an option where you for example either turn a superweapon you just recovered on the civilian population or let it rape a planet of all it's resources to fire, or destroy it right then and there... no middle ground, no thought for the long term, just one moronic all or nothing solution or the other, neither of which are going to change anything as far as what you do next is concerned.
Honestly a lot of this is why I'm becoming less enthused of all the cinematics and "fully voiced conversations" in games nowadays, I saw the potential in this, but it long ago ceased to move forward, and 90% of the people doing it can't even be bothered to have multiple main character voice tracks for the same plotline like Saint's Row 2/3 did, never mind actually making them mean anything, or even put any serious weight behind them because usually I wind up with a choice of two equally stupid or extreme things, neither of which I would do in that situation IRL.
People have this vision of games where you can make all of these meaningful desicians with equal, but differant content coming from each one, and the game winding up being entirely differant based on what you choose to say or do. Right now, no company has wanted to invest the time, effort, or resources into doing that, especially for a very long game. The technology for it exists, especially in games with a fairly sandbox approach to begin with, but nobody has really wanted to go there.
In the case of games like "Mass Effect" or "The Old Republic" your storyline isn't going to change much based on what you do. What's more there is a deliberate effort being made to prevent one path or another from giving an undue advantage. Being able to make fights easier by say blowing a minion or boss away during dialogue with one moral choice or another would make that desician advantageous and give you an advantage over someone who made the other desician.
Likewise you can pretty much guess that a dialogue desician that would change the purpose of the NPC or plot development (which is usually pretty shallow and predictable) isn't going to turn out that way. To be honest I think Bioware is screwing with people intentionally with the whole "what you pick, isn't what comes out of the guy's mouth" schtick.
To be honest though my big problem with Bioware is that I increasingly feel like a moron playing their games, since your character rarely picks up on the most obvious subtexts, asks the right questions, or presents reasonable, oftentimes obvious, alternative solutions to various problems. In general if you play the "bad" path you are pretty much going to kill people or do nasty things for da lulz, if you play the "good" path your going to be a frakking moron with no sense of scope. In a Bioware game your pretty much given an option where you for example either turn a superweapon you just recovered on the civilian population or let it rape a planet of all it's resources to fire, or destroy it right then and there... no middle ground, no thought for the long term, just one moronic all or nothing solution or the other, neither of which are going to change anything as far as what you do next is concerned.
Honestly a lot of this is why I'm becoming less enthused of all the cinematics and "fully voiced conversations" in games nowadays, I saw the potential in this, but it long ago ceased to move forward, and 90% of the people doing it can't even be bothered to have multiple main character voice tracks for the same plotline like Saint's Row 2/3 did, never mind actually making them mean anything, or even put any serious weight behind them because usually I wind up with a choice of two equally stupid or extreme things, neither of which I would do in that situation IRL.