A moral dilemma (in a dream)

[Strazdas]

Ok, this is kind of awkward. I had a very strange experience tonight. I dreamt that certain events happened, and then i couldn't decide what to do, so i typed them out on Escapist forums, pretending its my friends problem. Yes, i dream about escapist apparently.
However the question is really an existing one, so i decided to do post it on escapist forum after all, cards on the table. One has to note that what happens in a dream does not have to be logical, and while i tried to figure out why, dreams aren't always logical.

Ill tell the way i dreamt it. So this is what happened....


I went on a unspecified trip abroad and for whatever reason one of the requirements of staying overnight at a stop on the road was to find partners on our own to share rooms with in the local hotel. So a girl sought me out and asked if i wanted to do that with her, and i agreed. In the room she confessed that she loves me, we had sex and talked on for like whole night. it felt like she could understand me perfectly and so on. In the end i asked if she was going to be back the next night (dream logic!) and she said yes.
in the dream felt like there is absolutely no way she was lying. however, quite suddenly scenery changed and i am outside the next morning, and i see my "Dream girl" who i longer for for many years walking around (how she got here? dream logic) and for some reason i offer to do her shoulder massage (i got no idea how to do that in reality) which thanks to dream logic means we have sex. (yay dream logic?).
However as i lay in bed afterwards i reach a dilemma, i now have two girls to chose from, and i dont want to disappoint either, but i have to choose.
at this point thants to dream teleportation logic i am now typing this on escapist forums asking for help....


So the rest of the night i sat there with this dilemma trying to solve it.
On one hand i got a girl that loves me, initiated contact first (which is a HUGE bonus in my book), and i can connect with. Plus she was first.
On the other hand i got a girl who i dreamed about for a very long time.
And during the night, i failed to solve the choice problem, so i decided to follow my dreams advise and ask for your opinion.
Now remember, this happened in a dream so this is as hypothetical as it comes, and while the two woman are based in real life woman, they are both happily married/partnered as far as i know and this wont translate into real life in any way.

So escapists, what would YOU do in such situation.

Edit: formatting and grammar, damn notepad.

 

[krazykidd]

Love the person that loves you , no the one the doesn't love you back .

Is what i would say if i wasn't a complete asshole in real life . What i would really do is try to get a threesome going ( which i will fail at but i'd try anyways ), and ask both of them how they feel about polyamorus relationships . If they both said no ,i'd date my dream girl and sleep with the other one.

Yes i know , i'm a horrible person .

 

[Rowan93]

I'll second the "why not both?" answer. Nothing unethical about polyamory, we just have dumb social norms that say monogamy is the only way.

Failing that, I'd go for dream girl, politely break it off with other girl, initiating contact isn't that big a plus as long as at least one of you are capable of doing so.

 

[Strazdas]

And thats why i like escapist, i didnt even think of that. interesting answers.
Initiating contact is a big deal for me, since i am unable to do that in any shape or form in real life.

 

[game-lover]

Love the person that loves you , no the one the doesn't love you back .

Is what i would say if i wasn't a complete asshole in real life . What i would really do is try to get a threesome going ( which i will fail at but i'd try anyways ), and ask both of them how they feel about polyamorus relationships . If they both said no ,i'd date my dream girl and sleep with the other one.

Yes i know , i'm a horrible person .

Just as long as you know...

OT: The polyamory solution is not a bad one. It's just not very probable. Hell, the first guy clearly said he'd probably fail at trying to start it with them. So in my opinion, it's likely a waste of time.

Especially if it's not for the right reasons anyway. You can't just want both girls. You have to love them, I imagine. Maybe equally which I doubt is an easy trick.

Anyway... based on this tiny bit of info, I wanna lean towards the first girl. What has the dream shown about her? She loves you, you guys had a good soulful talk and she pursued you. What did the dream say about the second girl? Nothing. Other than the fact that your dream self wanted her for a long time, we get nothing. I'll assume that the sex wasn't very emotional. Or memorable in any case. Like perhaps your dream self put "Dream girl" on this idolized pedestal only for your dream self to discover that you did just that.

So... that's my answer. Go with the one who appears to be a sure thing. First girl.

Here's hoping you get one of those dreams that continues the story. And you can tell us all about it.

 

[Angie7F]

If you are just dating, you can date both girls.
You never promised to be exclusive.

Right?

 

[Knife]

Not really a moral dilemma - there's nothing more or less moral about either choice. It's a question of preference. What I do in situations like this when I can't decide is drop a coin - say heads for the first girl, tails for the second. If say it falls on heads and you feel fine with it then go for the first girl, but if you have the urge to say that drop doesn't count and needing to drop again, then clearly you want the second girl and should pursue her. Basically find what you want to do and stick with it.

 

[krazykidd]

Love the person that loves you , no the one the doesn't love you back

I'd say this is bad advice. "Going after" someone just because they like you, isn't going to form a relationship. Even though you like them in return, if the deciding factor for you is just that it'd be easier, it's doomed to fail.

Depends on the situation . I see a bunch of people , wasting time and effort going after someone that is clearly not interested. That's why we have so many people yelling " friendzone". While i agree it shouldn't be the defining factor , it's a lot better than chasing after the wind .

 

[Strazdas]

Not really a moral dilemma - there's nothing more or less moral about either choice. It's a question of preference. What I do in situations like this when I can't decide is drop a coin - say heads for the first girl, tails for the second. If say it falls on heads and you feel fine with it then go for the first girl, but if you have the urge to say that drop doesn't count and needing to drop again, then clearly you want the second girl and should pursue her. Basically find what you want to do and stick with it.

But thats the thing - i spent whole night trying to decide and failed.

capcha: three short words
Did you meant "i love you"?

 

[TWRule]

The fact that this is a dream is highly relevant. Ethics, guilt, and interpersonal relations don't work the same way in dreams, not to mention moral thinking.

The fact that you forgot all about what was supposedly a meaningful connection - or at least your own promises - immediately, should tell you more about yourself and perhaps how similar or different it is to your waking life - especially what constitutes a meaningful relationship to you - than any moral dilemma (which would probably be no dilemma at all for you if you experienced a waking equivalent).

If you want a better understanding of what I mean, read or better watch the film 'The Trial' after the book by Franz Kafka. He does a perfect job of representing a persons waking life that operates more like a dream (the main character even has a somewhat similar experience to the one you are describing). The idea is that most of us are stumbling through life in a similar fashion, even when we supposedly have our senses about us - but there are forces, including our own profound sense of responsibility for our lives, and in sometimes other (real) people, demanding of us that we start paying attention.

 

[Knife]

But thats the thing - i spent whole night trying to decide and failed.

capcha: three short words
Did you meant "i love you"?

There's a reason I mentioned the coin drop - it's meant to force your decision within a time limit. It takes only a few seconds to drop a coin and then observing your own reaction. Don't think about what you want, feel it and realize you're feeling it.

 

[Strazdas]

But thats the thing - i spent whole night trying to decide and failed.

capcha: three short words
Did you meant "i love you"?

There's a reason I mentioned the coin drop - it's meant to force your decision within a time limit. It takes only a few seconds to drop a coin and then observing your own reaction. Don't think about what you want, feel it and realize you're feeling it.

I dont gamble. ever. not even in games. i would never trust a coin drop to decide my actions. I understand what you trying to say, but i wouldnt be throwing the coin to begin with. and even if i forced myself to do that, this wouldnt work. the choice been made and i woudl stick with it out of stubbornness regardless of personal feelings. because im shit like that.

The fact that this is a dream is highly relevant. Ethics, guilt, and interpersonal relations don't work the same way in dreams, not to mention moral thinking.

The fact that you forgot all about what was supposedly a meaningful connection - or at least your own promises - immediately, should tell you more about yourself and perhaps how similar or different it is to your waking life - especially what constitutes a meaningful relationship to you - than any moral dilemma (which would probably be no dilemma at all for you if you experienced a waking equivalent).

This is indeed an interesting perspective. Yes i did mention that logic does not wok in a dream but forgot the other parts. mostly because i try to live my life as logically as possible in this illogical world.
I didnt "Forget" about it, but rather saw a long awaited opportunity and took it. at least thats what it felt more like. Thing is, i would never take such an opportunity in real life, i am way too sky/incapable of approaching people to even begin this.
If this was a waking situation, the second girl would never happen, but it did in a dream, which left me with a insolvable[footnote]Im too stupid to solve it it seems[/footnote] dillema.
I really appreciate your input, you seem to dig deeper than most.

Capcha: there is no spoon
spoon is a lie. wait what?

 

[TWRule]

This is indeed an interesting perspective. Yes i did mention that logic does not wok in a dream but forgot the other parts. mostly because i try to live my life as logically as possible in this illogical world.

Funny, because that's pretty much what the main character of The Trial tried to do and, well, you should go watch the film haha.

Anyway, it probably doesn't make sense to ask what your intentions were or should have been in a (dream) situation where you were basically acting on whimsy more than anything; though that doesn't mean there's nothing to be learned from the experience. Reflecting on what you felt in what circumstances of the dream, and especially comparing each aspect of the dream to how you operate and the general attitudes you take toward things in the waking world can be fruitful.

I didnt "Forget" about it, but rather saw a long awaited opportunity and took it. at least thats what it felt more like. Thing is, i would never take such an opportunity in real life, i am way too sky/incapable of approaching people to even begin this.
If this was a waking situation, the second girl would never happen, but it did in a dream, which left me with a insolvable

I didn't really mean you actually "forgot" about it - I'm willing to bet it was more like you were vaguely aware of the first encounter in the 'back of your mind' while the second encounter was happening, or after, but despite that you acted on whims, doing something you never would have done if 'fully awake'. That's pretty common in dreams I think, or at least I've had similar experiences. I think of that in terms of 'guilt' - in the sense that there is something you know you have to do but aren't paying attention to it or failed to follow through. Compare that with your overall situation in waking life and see what happens...

I really appreciate your input, you seem to dig deeper than most.

Why thank you; glad to help.

 

[Strazdas]

Funny, because that's pretty much what the main character of The Trial tried to do and, well, you should go watch the film haha.

Yeah, i really should. I guess its the 1993 one since that one seems to be based on Kafka. though im not sure when i will due to my schedule being silly nowdays.

And indeed you seem to know me better than i know myself. this really lead to some interesting thoughts forming and i see the implication your going for here. doubtful it will have strong impact on the waking me though. for better or worse.

 

[TWRule]

Funny, because that's pretty much what the main character of The Trial tried to do and, well, you should go watch the film haha.

Yeah, i really should. I guess its the 1993 one since that one seems to be based on Kafka. though im not sure when i will due to my schedule being silly nowdays.

There is also a 1962 version (the novel was first published in 1925), which a lot of people I know rave about, but I haven't seen. I did see the 1993 version though, and it's excellent.

And indeed you seem to know me better than i know myself. this really lead to some interesting thoughts forming and i see the implication your going for here. doubtful it will have strong impact on the waking me though. for better or worse.

Haha, well it's just that I've had similar experiences, and I have reason to believe there are some universally human factors that might have given rise to both your experiences and my own.

It's easy to move on with your daily life and difficult to really find an immediate way to learn something of significance from every potent dream experience, but I would at least try to keep the dream in mind for possible latter reflection and associations.

By the way, another work of Kafka's "The Country Doctor", was made into a short animation by some Japanese artists, and though it is more surreal in many ways than The Trial, you might find that it powerfully evokes a feeling similar to the one you may have had in your dream (maybe even a more potent version, or at least a related feeling). Be warned though, like all of Kafka's works, it can be very disturbing, and the surrealist animation just adds to that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbOLSY3sX9g

 

[Strazdas]

There is also a 1962 version (the novel was first published in 1925), which a lot of people I know rave about, but I haven't seen. I did see the 1993 version though, and it's excellent.

And indeed you seem to know me better than i know myself. this really lead to some interesting thoughts forming and i see the implication your going for here. doubtful it will have strong impact on the waking me though. for better or worse.

Haha, well it's just that I've had similar experiences, and I have reason to believe there are some universally human factors that might have given rise to both your experiences and my own.

It's easy to move on with your daily life and difficult to really find an immediate way to learn something of significance from every potent dream experience, but I would at least try to keep the dream in mind for possible latter reflection and associations.

By the way, another work of Kafka's "The Country Doctor", was made into a short animation by some Japanese artists, and though it is more surreal in many ways than The Trial, you might find that it powerfully evokes a feeling similar to the one you may have had in your dream (maybe even a more potent version, or at least a related feeling). Be warned though, like all of Kafka's works, it can be very disturbing, and the surrealist animation just adds to that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbOLSY3sX9g

Right. the IMDB page for 1962 version does not credit Kafka so i picked the 1993 version.

The thing that i posted this meant that the dream stuck, i forget most of them, especially nowadays that my head is already overloaded with variuos stuff, this forum not excepting. I very rarely make threads anywhere. it needs to be something really special for me to do that. like right now i found out some "interesting" stuff about transexuals, and isntead of making new thread i searched for quite a while to post it in relevant thread. and that a while is almost 3 hours now. havnet found though.

I lost belief in disturbing. Couple years ago i set out to find the most disturbing movie out there. ive seen plenty, human centipede, salo, rewind, the serbian, revolver, you name it. the most disturbingo ne is probably salo. i watched that while eating. they didnt satisfy me. so i went to look for more realistic ones, 3 guys one hammer, ect. those were easier to find than fictional movies surprisingly. but i didnt feel anything watching them either.
As a horror fan i am dissapointed that "disturbing" doesnt exist.
Though, i guess, the closest i ever did come to disturbed was watching Session 5 of all things. those audio tapes!

So kafka is peanuts. but not something id watch at work. plus no audio at work.

 

[TWRule]

I lost belief in disturbing. Couple years ago i set out to find the most disturbing movie out there. ive seen plenty, human centipede, salo, rewind, the serbian, revolver, you name it. the most disturbingo ne is probably salo. i watched that while eating. they didnt satisfy me. so i went to look for more realistic ones, 3 guys one hammer, ect. those were easier to find than fictional movies surprisingly. but i didnt feel anything watching them either.
As a horror fan i am dissapointed that "disturbing" doesnt exist.
Though, i guess, the closest i ever did come to disturbed was watching Session 5 of all things. those audio tapes!

So kafka is peanuts. but not something id watch at work. plus no audio at work.

Haha, well I meant a totally different sort of 'disturbing' than any of those things, more like an existential anxiety kind; it's probably not going to 'shock' you or anything, just make you think maybe heh. Best to watch it at home when you won't be interrupted anyway. All this goes for The Trial as well.

 

[MiskWisk]

Personally, I'd probably go with the first. This could be due to me being a spineless wimp in such matters but I'd feel the better chance of happiness came from the first rather than the second. Alternatively, I'd go for my back up plan of panic and hide.