A nitpick on Persona 4

[CaitSeith]

The more I think about this little detail in the game, the more it bothers me. In several parts of the game, you're at listening to a High School lecture, and out-of-the blue the teacher makes you a question on the topic (like "how many yens does it cost to make a 1 yen coin?" or "what happens to a plant when you touch it?"). If you choose the correct answer, you get congratulated and your Knowledge increases. If you don't, the teacher tells the correct answer and your Knowledge doesn't increase.

So, how can one's knowledge increase when one already knows the answer? And how is it that it doesn't increase when learning something new?

Game logic sometimes... just... blows my mind!

 

[Elvis Starburst]

I had an explanation, but prior thought threw it out the window. I guess it's not so much your existing knowledge, but showing you're knowledgeable? But even that doesn't line up for the stat increases when you study, for example. That's really weird now that you mention it...

 

[Kotaro]

I have no idea.

Funny timing seeing this thread now though, when literally five minutes ago I beat Margaret in my latest NG+ run of Golden. Just one trophy left to platinum the game, but it's frustratingly not one you can get on the final day.

 

[DeliveryGodNoah_v1legacy]

...huh.

 

[Catfood220]

They do the same thing in Persona 5 and I never gave it much thought. But now you mention it, it does seem a bit weird.

 

[Tony2077]

i don't know who asked this the first time i saw it when i saw it but i have come to the conclusion after these years it either we will never know or better not to ask

 

[Okamisama]

The more I think about this little detail in the game, the more it bothers me. In several parts of the game, you're at listening to a High School lecture, and out-of-the blue the teacher makes you a question on the topic (like "how many yens does it cost to make a 1 yen coin?" or "what happens to a plant when you touch it?"). If you choose the correct answer, you get congratulated and your Knowledge increases. If you don't, the teacher tells the correct answer and your Knowledge doesn't increase.

So, how can one's knowledge increase when one already knows the answer? And how is it that it doesn't increase when learning something new?

Game logic sometimes... just... blows my mind!

Stat increases aren't explicitly tied to an existing action or bit of trivia. In the case of knowledge treat it similarly to IQ. Your character's knowledge is more a relative baseline and as it grows he is generally considered smarter but that doesn't mean he IS smarter. The game doesn't expect you to know it immediately (ng+ and all that) so it tells you the answer if you are wrong. You need the answers because the midterm and final exams use questions based off those answers as well as judging your success with the tests based off your general knowledge. If you got every question right, but neglected knowledge regardless you would do poorly on them. Hard to say how poorly, especially compared to "questions wrong, but max knowledge", but that is aside the point.

It's like the nurse in Persona 3 or working in the hospital at night with Persona 4. Bravery/courage start low, but just because you do one thing that is brave doesn't make you courageous. A higher Bravery level shows your character's general endurance for being scared off. Too low, and no matter how many near death experiences he suffers or occasional brace choice, he doesn't have the courage to consistently endure whatever fear there is.

It's a matter of consistency for his behavior.

 

[TilMorrow]

I always took your social stats as actually being a representation of your social standing/perception in society e.g. when you demonstrate your intelligence through answering questions correctly, doing well on tests, present yourself as someone who frequently studies or works late into your the night your social reputation rank concerning knowledge goes up. Though I only really started considering that as a possibility after realising that even drinking coffee in Persona 4 Golden can affect your stats.

 

[Yoshi178]

The more I think about this little detail in the game, the more it bothers me. In several parts of the game, you're at listening to a High School lecture, and out-of-the blue the teacher makes you a question on the topic (like "how many yens does it cost to make a 1 yen coin?" or "what happens to a plant when you touch it?"). If you choose the correct answer, you get congratulated and your Knowledge increases. If you don't, the teacher tells the correct answer and your Knowledge doesn't increase.

ok.

So, how can one's knowledge increase when one already knows the answer? And how is it that it doesn't increase when learning something new?

it's a videogame. it doesn't have to make sense.

Game logic sometimes... just... blows my mind!

ok...?

 

[CaitSeith]

it's a videogame. it doesn't have to make sense.

But it's better when it does.

EDIT: And it isn't like it doesn't make any sense: it's a stat increase as reward for success. It only makes sense when using game logic.

 

[Yoshi178]

it's a videogame. it doesn't have to make sense.

But it's better when it does.

not really.

for example the mario universe wouldn't be the mario universe if everything in it made sense.

 

[CaitSeith]

snip

Have you heard of TVTropes' Rule of Cool (all but the most pedantic of viewers will forgive liberties with reality as long as the result is wicked sweet or awesome)? I think in making the Rule of Game for this (all but the most pedantic of players will forgive liberties with reason as long as the result is really well gamified)

EDIT: Also, Super Mario and Persona 4 are pretty different games in terms of setting and world-building, so that comparison is too stretched.

EDIT 2: Also this is a nitpick. No game is perfect (no, not even Nintendo ones; and this isn't even a Nintendo in the first place), and this is just some fridge logic. I don't think about this while playing the game (because I'm more worried about following the game logic than most other details); but I like the game so much that I keep thinking about it long afterwards, and once the game logic is out the way, these details suddenly pop out when I think about them.

 

[Here Comes Tomorrow]

I always took your social stats as actually being a representation of your social standing/perception in society e.g. when you demonstrate your intelligence through answering questions correctly, doing well on tests, present yourself as someone who frequently studies or works late into your the night your social reputation rank concerning knowledge goes up. Though I only really started considering that as a possibility after realising that even drinking coffee in Persona 4 Golden can affect your stats.

This. Social stats represent peoples impression of you. Otherwise it means the MC is a conceited arsehole for thinking he's the most handsome, brave and intelligent mother fucker in the land.

 

[CaitSeith]

I always took your social stats as actually being a representation of your social standing/perception in society e.g. when you demonstrate your intelligence through answering questions correctly, doing well on tests, present yourself as someone who frequently studies or works late into your the night your social reputation rank concerning knowledge goes up. Though I only really started considering that as a possibility after realising that even drinking coffee in Persona 4 Golden can affect your stats.

This. Social stats represent peoples impression of you. Otherwise it means the MC is a conceited arsehole for thinking he's the most handsome, brave and intelligent mother fucker in the land.

Then that would make illogical the parts where you increase your social stats in private (as there is no one to impress).

 

[mysecondlife]

I always took your social stats as actually being a representation of your social standing/perception in society e.g. when you demonstrate your intelligence through answering questions correctly, doing well on tests, present yourself as someone who frequently studies or works late into your the night your social reputation rank concerning knowledge goes up. Though I only really started considering that as a possibility after realising that even drinking coffee in Persona 4 Golden can affect your stats.

This. Social stats represent peoples impression of you. Otherwise it means the MC is a conceited arsehole for thinking he's the most handsome, brave and intelligent mother fucker in the land.

Then that would make illogical the parts where you increase your social stats in private (as there is no one to impress).

Maybe it's not so much an either/or thing. It could be a combination of both. *Shrug*.

 

[CaitSeith]

I always took your social stats as actually being a representation of your social standing/perception in society e.g. when you demonstrate your intelligence through answering questions correctly, doing well on tests, present yourself as someone who frequently studies or works late into your the night your social reputation rank concerning knowledge goes up. Though I only really started considering that as a possibility after realising that even drinking coffee in Persona 4 Golden can affect your stats.

This. Social stats represent peoples impression of you. Otherwise it means the MC is a conceited arsehole for thinking he's the most handsome, brave and intelligent mother fucker in the land.

Then that would make illogical the parts where you increase your social stats in private (as there is no one to impress).

Maybe it's not so much an either/or thing. It could be a combination of both. *Shrug*.

It's hard to me to buy that. There are parts of the game that are locked up until you reach ceratain level in certain social stat, or events that also require certain stat level to happen (that's the goal of having high social stats). These are the moments where other people evaluate you the most (ex. high knowledge gives you high grades at school exams, which makes you very popular at school). *Shrug*

 

[Drathnoxis]

Because true knowledge comes from within. If you answer the question, your brain gets stronger and can answer more difficult questions. Like when working out, if you can already lift the weight and complete the rep you get stronger if you can't then your arms fall off and you die.

I hope that answers your question.

 

[Kurt91]

I always took your social stats as actually being a representation of your social standing/perception in society e.g. when you demonstrate your intelligence through answering questions correctly, doing well on tests, present yourself as someone who frequently studies or works late into your the night your social reputation rank concerning knowledge goes up. Though I only really started considering that as a possibility after realising that even drinking coffee in Persona 4 Golden can affect your stats.

This. Social stats represent peoples impression of you. Otherwise it means the MC is a conceited arsehole for thinking he's the most handsome, brave and intelligent mother fucker in the land.

Then that would make illogical the parts where you increase your social stats in private (as there is no one to impress).

That one's easy. You answer a question correctly in class, people think you're intelligent and the corresponding stat point goes up. You study when you're alone, and your character is able to more easily answer questions and stuff "off-screen". They just give you the points immediately for how your classmates perceive you during that time. As for stuff like drinking coffee, I've never played Golden, just the PS2 version. Is that at a cafe? Let's say you're walking by, and you see somebody relaxing while drinking a cup of coffee at a cafe, reading a newspaper or whatever. Doesn't that give a different immediate impression than if you were to walk by and see the same person opening a Happy Meal or something? It's all in the impression you give to passers-by. (Now, it would be nice if in the next Persona game, they expressly showed a classmate or somebody walking by while doing an action, and they acknowledge you directly before you get the "stat up!" message.)

 

[Kotaro]

I always took your social stats as actually being a representation of your social standing/perception in society e.g. when you demonstrate your intelligence through answering questions correctly, doing well on tests, present yourself as someone who frequently studies or works late into your the night your social reputation rank concerning knowledge goes up. Though I only really started considering that as a possibility after realising that even drinking coffee in Persona 4 Golden can affect your stats.

The cafe doesn't raise your stats: it gives you skill cards. Which arguably makes even less sense, but whatever. It's a video game, things don't need to make complete logical sense all the time.

I've never played Golden, just the PS2 version. Is that at a cafe?

Remember the nearby city that shows up in a couple social link events? In Golden, you can unlock the ability to visit it on your own as a standard location. There's a movie theater (you can see movies with friends to get social link points with them and potentially raise their stats if they're party members), a claw game (you can win dolls for the shelf in your room), a clothing store (you can buy alternate costumes), and yeah, a cafe (drinking coffee lets you extract cards from your Personas that you can use to teach specific skills to other Personas).