A Person Uses Transgender Law To Expose Gender Discrimination

[kaizen2468]

Ladies night is for the men, it's not for the ladies. It's to get women in the bar, and thus men will go. And what will they do once they're there? They will be buying full price drinks for women.

 

[viranimus]

Do you think this guy has a point or he is being an insensitive jerk?

There is a point being made and in all likelihood the guy is an insensitive jerk. Nothing precludes both from being true.

People want to look at trans as if it is the next layer of civil rights progression now that homosexuality has basically been accepted regardless if people agree with it or not. However what people fail to acknowledge is that the trans issue is both more simple and far more complex than people want to consider. That complexity means that it is no where near as cut and dry of an argument as homosexual rights issues were portrayed as being. So if this is the beginning of a discussion on trans acceptance, it will take a LOT longer for the individual issues revolving around it to be "resolved" in enough peoples minds to shift society in one direction or another when it gets around that same 50% acceptance mark that seems to be the modern barrier of acceptance.

This is not simply an issue of "its what people want to do, let them do it" because this is rooted in a mental health issue on the individual level. like it or not and the cases must be considered on a case by case situation to do them justice, which means it is not going to be right to simply pass blanket laws saying either yae or nae. Further it is a perfect example of "no man is an island unto himself" because like it or not what one individual does WILL have repercussions on not only themselves or those they interact with, but people they pass in proximity to, people they have never met and honestly society as a whole, because when you get right down to it this "question" is one that will either force society to fundamentally change, or stay the same because there is no possibility for middle ground because as stated, No one is an island unto themselves and this is a case where what ever answer will effect all, regardless if it is something that is personally relevant to them or not.

So my point? People need to realize this is not some simple situation of discrimination against a group of people. This is a question of do we as a species intend to fundamentally alter keystone concepts and adopt a completely divergent social philosophy. So even if this guy IS a jerk and by the sound of it, he probably is. The underlying question this poses is one that must be genuinely debated because these are legitimate questions that must be considered or else we either run the risk of neglecting groups of people if we do not properly consider all sides of the equation, regardless of which path society decides to slog its way through.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Do you think this guy has a point or he is being an insensitive jerk?

There is a point being made and in all likelihood the guy is an insensitive jerk. Nothing precludes both from being true.

People want to look at trans as if it is the next layer of civil rights progression now that homosexuality has basically been accepted regardless if people agree with it or not. However what people fail to acknowledge is that the trans issue is both more simple and far more complex than people want to consider. That complexity means that it is no where near as cut and dry of an argument as homosexual rights issues were portrayed as being. So if this is the beginning of a discussion on trans acceptance, it will take a LOT longer for the individual issues revolving around it to be "resolved" in enough peoples minds to shift society in one direction or another when it gets around that same 50% acceptance mark that seems to be the modern barrier of acceptance.

This is not simply an issue of "its what people want to do, let them do it" because this is rooted in a mental health issue on the individual level. like it or not and the cases must be considered on a case by case situation to do them justice, which means it is not going to be right to simply pass blanket laws saying either yae or nae. Further it is a perfect example of "no man is an island unto himself" because like it or not what one individual does WILL have repercussions on not only themselves or those they interact with, but people they pass in proximity to, people they have never met and honestly society as a whole, because when you get right down to it this "question" is one that will either force society to fundamentally change, or stay the same because there is no possibility for middle ground because as stated, No one is an island unto themselves and this is a case where what ever answer will effect all, regardless if it is something that is personally relevant to them or not.

So my point? People need to realize this is not some simple situation of discrimination against a group of people. This is a question of do we as a species intend to fundamentally alter keystone concepts and adopt a completely divergent social philosophy. So even if this guy IS a jerk and by the sound of it, he probably is. The underlying question this poses is one that must be genuinely debated because these are legitimate questions that must be considered or else we either run the risk of neglecting groups of people if we do not properly consider all sides of the equation, regardless of which path society decides to slog its way through.

Yeah, no... As a trans person who reads the polls and the laws, you're full of crap. It's the same discrimination, it comes from the same place, and it's done for the same reasons... In fact the only reason they started targeting trans people is because of the legalization of same sex marriage in the US. All of the leaders of the anti-trans BS currently explicitly admitted that even.

That's beside the fact that over 60% of the general public supports our equal rights, over 60 percent... It hit 76% approval before same sex marriage was legalized.

The guy in the article didn't present as female, then proceeded to prove he as a misogynist shit who doesn't understand transgenderism even the slightest. Your backing his argument... You just prove you don't understand the facts either.

I bet by case by case basis you mean weather, or not someone passes. Which as someone who passes flawlessly I can authoritatively say is bullshit, because I personally know non-trans crossdressers who and that don't ask for trans centric protections.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

So my point? People need to realize this is not some simple situation of discrimination against a group of people. This is a question of do we as a species intend to fundamentally alter keystone concepts and adopt a completely divergent social philosophy. So even if this guy IS a jerk and by the sound of it, he probably is. The underlying question this poses is one that must be genuinely debated because these are legitimate questions that must be considered or else we either run the risk of neglecting groups of people if we do not properly consider all sides of the equation, regardless of which path society decides to slog its way through.

Why? I don't understand why we should pander to infantile actions and make a fuss at all. Nor should society be an arbiter for the individual for no reason. If the guy wants to act like a dickhead, let him act like a dickhead, and most people who realise that ladies night is merely a way to get women into bars when they face a realistic (though variable) risk of being roofied or some other misfortune. It's a sleazy business tactic, but the majority of male patrons whn they think about it ... nod their heads ... and see why it works in their favour if they just so happen to want to get drunk and hook up with equally drunk women and have a likely pitiful performance because copious alcohol has that affect.

I fail to see what legitimate questions people doing this can raise. We know why bars do this.

More over, why exactly does this need extension into transgender identity? Why does it have to go that route? Nothing good will come from pretending this dickhead represents a 'viewpoint' of which should be entertained on the issue. It's like hearing a 7 year old call Trump a poopy-head and then pretend it's a valid topic of discussion just how much fecal matter might be between his ears. The discussion doesn't need to go there, because nothing of value can come from it and no enlightened opinion can be maintained with this as a platform.

 

[Jadak]

Hey, if he says he's a woman then he's a woman. I thought that was the whole point. If it doesn't matter what your DNA says, what your biology says you are, or what you have lived your life as for decades, if you say you're suddenly a woman, you must be treated as such and anyone who says differently is transphobic, right? Besides, who are any of you to judge? You should all check your privilege.

If he actually identified as a woman, I would consider him a woman. Instead, he claimed to identify as a woman for a piss poor excuse of a "social experiment," and actually identifies as a man. Hope that clears it up.

What you're talking about is more about whether he's an asshole or not. Of course he is. But how do you argue that he's the wrong? Short of actually having a doctor diagnosed mental illness and carrying around something that proves it, what the difference between an actual trans-gendered person and an asshole? Who is in a position at your average club to judge how 'serious' they are?

Point being, asshole has a point and you're left with a couple options.

1) Fuck trans laws and only acknowledge birth sex
2) Formalize gender identification and only acknowledge people as something if they have the legal documents to support it
3) Abolish anything and everything that gives a shit about what gender a person is.

This guy seems to be going for 3, and that's fair enough.

Overall, still a moot point. Things like 'ladies night', if anything, aren't discriminatory enough. They don't need to be fair, they need to generate a demographic the club desires to result in their guests having a good time and making them more money. Male or female, it should have nothing to do with gender, just the current club ratio and how fuckable you are.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Hey, if he says he's a woman then he's a woman. I thought that was the whole point. If it doesn't matter what your DNA says, what your biology says you are, or what you have lived your life as for decades, if you say you're suddenly a woman, you must be treated as such and anyone who says differently is transphobic, right? Besides, who are any of you to judge? You should all check your privilege.

If he actually identified as a woman, I would consider him a woman. Instead, he claimed to identify as a woman for a piss poor excuse of a "social experiment," and actually identifies as a man. Hope that clears it up.

What you're talking about is more about whether he's an asshole or not. Of course he is. But how do you argue that he's the wrong? Short of actually having a doctor diagnosed mental illness and carrying around something that proves it, what the difference between an actual trans-gendered person and an asshole? Who is in a position at your average club to judge how 'serious' they are?

Because he obviously doesn't even understand he first thing about gender dysphoria, or transgenderism. He claimed to identify as a woman, then turned around and identified himself as a man. Also he talked about transitioning to being a woman, which was patently obvious bullshit on his part, considering he couldn't even be bothered to look the part even a little bit. The claim that people need to carry a medical document and out themselves to have their gender identities respected is patent crap at any rate. There 23 states with laws that prevent discrimination against trans people in public accommodation, employment, and housing. They never had any of the problems you're talking about, at least not until the right-wing got all pissed about the Obergefell v Hodges rulings and started doing false flag claims of being transgender, while presenting as men, just to scare people. We really shouldn't be looking to punish the trans community for other people being bigoted fear mongering assholes.

Point being, asshole has a point and you're left with a couple options.

1) Fuck trans laws and only acknowledge birth sex
2) Formalize gender identification and only acknowledge people as something if they have the legal documents to support it
3) Abolish anything and everything that gives a shit about what gender a person is.

This guy seems to be going for 3, and that's fair enough.

Actually he has no point...

1) Every state that's doing what you're suggesting is get hammered economically for doing it. They're doing it for petty dishonest reasons, and now trans protections are going have to be heard by the supreme court.
2) This is already being implemented, or has been implemented in most of the first world. Most places require sexual reassignment surgery to legally change gender, but that's changing because of how badly it hurts people who don't want, or can't get bottom surgery for various reasons. A lot of places are also getting gender neutral identification for people who are gender non-conforming.
3) Will never happen, it's too valuable as a political pawn, when lying politicians can claim that being inclusive hurts women and children.

This guy isn't going for any of this stuff though, he's doing the internet A Voice for Men MRA, where you complain over something meaningless to stick it to women...

 

[ErrrorWayz]

I like these topics because it brings the bigoted feminists out of their caves, even if he's just a crazy old guy or is talking about trivial things, some people can't seem to identify the simplest forms of discrimination. sigh

Really, getting cheap drinks at bars is a privilege?

It doesn't matter that a woman is four times more likely to be raped than a man, or that an entire wing of American politics wants to use them as little more than breeding stock, the real injustice is that some bars give women a discount. Feminism defeated, we can all go home now.

Do you realize that nothing you've said is true?

I dunno, getting cheap drinks in a bar is a privilege.

Some people do seem to get so caught up in the narrative they lose all perspective huh? That breeding stock comment is just bizarre. I wonder how it happens?

 

[9tailedflame]

We're gonna have to face these sorts of things one way or another, not surprising that this popped up, anyway, ladies nights ARE sexist, just because they benefit men by attempting to make the ratio of men and women more even in the bar doesn't make them not sexist, it's still very clearly giving an advantage to women. I've always hoped that transgendered people being more out there in the world would end up doing this too, that is, cracking the gender problem right open like a ripe watermelon. It's gonna suck for everyone for awhile, but i think if we can finally stop giving a shit legally about whether you have a penis or a vagina, or whether you identify as a man or woman, we can finally topple one of the oldest and most ingrained prejudices of society, and i think that's worth it.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

We're gonna have to face these sorts of things one way or another, not surprising that this popped up, anyway, ladies nights ARE sexist, just because they benefit men by attempting to make the ratio of men and women more even in the bar doesn't make them not sexist, it's still very clearly giving an advantage to women. I've always hoped that transgendered people being more out there in the world would end up doing this too, that is, cracking the gender problem right open like a ripe watermelon. It's gonna suck for everyone for awhile, but i think if we can finally stop giving a shit legally about whether you have a penis or a vagina, or whether you identify as a man or woman, we can finally topple one of the oldest and most ingrained prejudices of society, and i think that's worth it.

Right, but there are business reasons why companies do this. There is a difference between sexism in the workplace, or in education, but that has never really extended to private enterprise advertisement. The only reason why there is moderation at all in this regards is because people often complain to channel operators or because it often involves pissing off potential patrons to the point where they avoid the brand in question.

Doesn't exactly help the situation, police knocking on bars and pointing accusatory fingers at private enterprise owners saying; "Naughty!"

 

[Adeptus Aspartem]

See, this sort of thing fails when you say, "hey, I'm gonna do this thing to be a douchbag expose gender discrimination". You gotta go undercover for this sort of thing to be effective.

You know, get a psychiatrist involved, start taking hormones, etc. Otherwise, the people who said weren't trans were right.

Otherwise, you're just a douchbag complaining about unequal cover charges for an event most male patrons are perfectly okay with. 13 freaking dollars, who has the kinda time to sue over that.

After reading the article: Oh shit, I've actually heard of this d-bag before. He's been ridiculous for years.

Those 13 dollars depend on the country though. In my city you've the decision between shitty clubs for 0-10 bucks or the good clubs for 30-40 bucks entrance fee. And by good i don't mean some international crazy special club, just a regular non-sucky club. Jeah, Switzerland is crazy expensive.
Also, if there's a free drink for the lady that's an aditional 15 bucks diffrence. And 50 friggin bucks isn't something to sneeze at, specialy as a student.
All that for women to lure in men who want to fuck them.

I'm not really fond of that practice. Heck, most female friends i know regularly club and never take any money with them. Free entrance, 1 free drink and then get 1 or 2 drinks paid, ggwpkkthxbye.
Meanwhile i'm shellin' out nearly 100 bucks for the entrance and 3 shitty watered down drinks that barely make you tipsy.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

See, this sort of thing fails when you say, "hey, I'm gonna do this thing to be a douchbag expose gender discrimination". You gotta go undercover for this sort of thing to be effective.

You know, get a psychiatrist involved, start taking hormones, etc. Otherwise, the people who said weren't trans were right.

Otherwise, you're just a douchbag complaining about unequal cover charges for an event most male patrons are perfectly okay with. 13 freaking dollars, who has the kinda time to sue over that.

After reading the article: Oh shit, I've actually heard of this d-bag before. He's been ridiculous for years.

Those 13 dollars depend on the country though. In my city you've the decision between shitty clubs for 0-10 bucks or the good clubs for 30-40 bucks entrance fee. And by good i don't mean some international crazy special club, just a regular non-sucky club. Jeah, Switzerland is crazy expensive.
Also, if there's a free drink for the lady that's an aditional 15 bucks diffrence. And 50 friggin bucks isn't something to sneeze at, specialy as a student.
All that for women to lure in men who want to fuck them.

I'm not really fond of that practice. Heck, most female friends i know regularly club and never take any money with them. Free entrance, 1 free drink and then get 1 or 2 drinks paid, ggwpkkthxbye.
Meanwhile i'm shellin' out nearly 100 bucks for the entrance and 3 shitty watered down drinks that barely make you tipsy.

Remember, you're not going to the club for drinks, or even really any service, you're going to the club because it's a social environment and the social status of getting. Most of these clubs are designed for people with more money than brains anyways. Half of going to a trendy night club is just getting to be smug about having got in, the other half getting phone numbers and dancing to tracks picked by some DJ most people are only pretending to have heard of. For that people will pay a huge cover charge to get in, then buy a few of the club's terrible and insanely over priced drinks. The reason for ladies' night in those sorts of clubs need to keep attracting women all night, otherwise their target clients won't come and spend any money. Mostly it's just trendy clubs that have ladies' night and I can't for the life of me fathom the appeal of these clubs.

This is why I'm glad I live in Reno, NV. There are few trendy clubs here and the only places that ever have cover charges here are near casinos and/or only attract tourists. The places geared for locals never get lines around the block that require them to institute a cover charge period, few have ladies' night, because locals' bars in tourist towns like Reno, just don't don't benefit from that. They do things like buy one, get one free, or all you can drink happy hour(usually 2 or 3 hours in practice) for one price, or other promotions. Then there are the casinos, from the tiny gambling clubs to the big hotel casinos, it's always free drinks as long as you're gambling. Although here in the Reno/Sparks area, places that aren't overpriced tourist traps, charge ~5 dollars per drink, and those are never watered down here.

 

[Karadalis]

Do you think this guy has a point or he is being an insensitive jerk?

No no, he's fine. We need people to help this sort of thing out. Of course, I'd expect in the future that ID cards - Because getting carded on these occasions seems reasonable, at least - should be used to back the claim up. If you're going to be legally changed or even somewhere in the middle, your identification should probably reflect that.

But what about gender queers?

You know the people that wake up every morning feeling like they are any of the 160 different genders that are suposedly existing by now... you cant simply tie them down to this.

Anyways OT:

There are greater problems out there then "ladies night" at your local bar.. to be quite honest things like ladies nights are not a problem at all.. this is just petty foot stomping.


There are much better example of blatant and outrageous sexism issues and mind boogling priviliges that come with claiming being trans: Like being able to avoid going to jail for rape:

https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2014/10/07/is-transgender-the-get-out-of-rape-free-card-twitter-rapist-dana-mccallum-walks-free/

or this one:

http://www.somersetlive.co.uk/woman-admits-making-boy-tie-her-up-hit-genitals-and-humiliate-her-when-she-was-a-man/story-29572998-detail/story.html

Even pleaded GUILTY him/herselfe... but still walked out of court a free man/woman. And the justification of the judge is just hilarious... he sentenced non guilty because there are no programs to help out transgender rapists... so because of that this person was found NON GUILTY... even thought the person themselves pledged guilty... the insanity at work here...

Those are the real scandals... not some dude trying to get cheaper drinks at ladies night and being a complete dick (HA!) to everyone around. Dude simply is an asshole and not exposing anything.

 

[FalloutJack]

Snip

I understand what you're saying, but the logical outcome of this is that if you want to be legally known as a specific gender, there needs to be documentation. It's a weirdly tedious thing, but it's also law. Your ID is your statement of proof that you are who you say you are, recognized by state, county, and so on as what-have-you. It would prevent alot of arguments in regards to what people desire to be. Granted, this is become something of a red tape issue, but it's far more in control. Basically, it would grant and prove the right, but tie you to the responsibility.

 

[SecondPrize]

I'll wait till he handily wins the kids in a divorce to cheer him on. Ladies Nights are for everybody. They're not even worth a strongly worded letter to the editor, much less faking a gender transition.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Snip

I understand what you're saying, but the logical outcome of this is that if you want to be legally known as a specific gender, there needs to be documentation. It's a weirdly tedious thing, but it's also law. Your ID is your statement of proof that you are who you say you are, recognized by state, county, and so on as what-have-you. It would prevent alot of arguments in regards to what people desire to be. Granted, this is become something of a red tape issue, but it's far more in control. Basically, it would grant and prove the right, but tie you to the responsibility.

The bigger problem is, even when people legally transition, there is a lot of legal and policy based crap going on, like how transwomen get put in mens prisons and trans men in women's. Even after they have gender-affirming/sexual reassignment surgery. Legally speaking we can get our IDs and birth certificates changed and so on, but still get mistreated in the legal system in general. That's beside the fact that so many places make a demand for an invasive and expensive surgery that many don't want, can't afford, or simply isn't an option for medical, or practical reasons.

-snip-

Gender queer people don't identify how you say they identify, they just don't identify firmly within the gender binary. Meaning in a general sense they don't identify as female, or male strongly enough to say either fits them. Further more gender queer people don't just randomly wake up identifying as a different gender...

As to your "get out of jail free" card assertion:

Your first link is from a vehemently transphobic TERF blog that's dedicated to smearing trans people, and the primary source for the story... Gawker. Yeah that's a worth while journalistic source. You can't believe a single word on that page. If there is any truth to the allegations stated, the question of Dana McCallum dodging jail... That's almost definitely a result of her being very wealthy, because wealthy people manage to dodge jail time for things like rape and domestic abuse, even murder, all the time. Because they can afford the best criminal defense lawyers. So not if the allegations are true, which I highly doubt, she got off the hook because she's rich, not because she's transgender. The source you cited is well known in the trans community for being a dirty, biased, bigoted, lying, and transphobic dispensary of anti-transgender bullshit.

The second story is a failure on the judge's part, and Brittan's criminal justice system, because they can't handle the case properly. Also she didn't get off Scot-free as it were, while the punishment was lenient she was still basically put on probation, had to pay reparations, and register as a sex offender. Plus the whole thing has basically ruined her public image for the rest of her life. That's beside the fact that the UK has somewhat of a reputation of being pretty lenient on sex-offenders.

Neither story really proves being trans is a "get out of jail free" card either. As transgender people are disproportionately incarcerated, often on false charges of prostitution and rape. Trans people are far more likely to be convicted of crimes than not being convicted, even in the case where the evidence can't support the charges and it's blatantly obvious the trans person on the stand had nothing to do with the crime that happened.

 

[FalloutJack]

Snip

By no means did I imply that this wasn't complicated or that it didn't have its own problems to deal with. It's just where I see things leading to with the whole gender thing. Perhaps - Perhaps! - to prevent trouble in prisons, felons would be given some leeway on the prison type to prevent it from being absolutely horrible. Rehabilitation isn't suppose to be torture, after all.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Snip

By no means did I imply that this wasn't complicated or that it didn't have its own problems to deal with. It's just where I see things leading to with the whole gender thing. Perhaps - Perhaps! - to prevent trouble in prisons, felons would be given some leeway on the prison type to prevent it from being absolutely horrible. Rehabilitation isn't suppose to be torture, after all.

Well right now, on all levels, there is a massive battle going on to prevent trans folk from being able to easily transition, legally be recognized as the gender we transition to... They're even pushing for policies, like the bathroom bill crap that's going on now, to make public life impossible for a trans person who transitioned. Not to mention how they're trying to strike down all LGBTQI+ protections all over the place. A push coming solely from the religious far right-wing conservative establishment, backed by dishonest hate groups like the "Family Research Council". The reason we even started getting targeted was because the extreme right-wing political side lost on same-sex marriage in the US. For anyone whose trans, right now things are looking really bleak going foreword.

Prisons don't seem to be about rehabilitation, they seem to be about punishment, more than anything else... Unless you're in the US, where prisons are a for profit and states have to pay for empty cells, so there's an incentive to incarcerate as many people as possible and leads to stories like: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/08/dramatic-showdown-over-trans-rights-san-francisco Which we're going to keep seeing for quite a while going foreword.

Crap like this makes me feel humanity isn't a species that deserves it's continued existence.

 

[FalloutJack]

Snip

Yeah, the crap going on right now is idiotic to me, and frankly a waste of time. The bathroom thing is especially stupid. I refuse to take it seriously because of {A} its parallel to the race descrimination issue and {B} the fact that it revolves around toilets.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Snip

Yeah, the crap going on right now is idiotic to me, and frankly a waste of time. The bathroom thing is especially stupid. I refuse to take it seriously because of {A} its parallel to the race descrimination issue and {B} the fact that it revolves around toilets.

The bathroom issue is just the tip of the iceberg. It's just a tiny symptom of the attempt to systematically oppress and exclude transgender people, then eventually all LGBTQI+ from society in general. The bathroom stuff is just what they can dress up saying "it's not about transgenders, it's about non-transgender perverts misusing the rules to commit crimes and get away with it" and "it's for the safety and privacy of women and little girls"... When both are bullshit, it's absolutely about harming trans people, doesn't make any crime in a bathroom less illega, and doesn't protect privacy. In fact it violates the medical privacy of transgender people, by forcing us to out ourselves and information about a confidential medical issue.

Still the bigger goal is to eliminate all protections for LGBTQI+ people in all sectors of life, so that we can be subject to discrimination in employment, housing, and public accommodation again. The more insidious part of the anti-trans part is that they're trying to make it so both private and public medical insurance won't cover transition, that we can be treated awfully by doctors, and so we can never legally transition. In the last case by making gender change on any identifying document from passports, to IDs, and birth certificates illegal. Really a lot of them are vocal about how we shouldn't have the right to live and exist, that's trans, gay, bi, lesbian, and whatever else.

People should be taking this very seriously, because the people pushing this crap have an honest agenda to roll back all civil rights progress.

 

[FalloutJack]

Snip

Indeed. If only someone - Maybe Colbert - would just go on national television and tell 'em all to quit faffing about and try to do something MEANINGFUL with the issue. You know, like shit that'll make the problem stop BEING a problem, like solving it!