A primer on D&D spellcasting?

barbzilla

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Dec 6, 2010
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As a note, I have not played 4th or 5th edition, but I started with Advanced Dungeons and Dragons (about 1 year), played AD&D 2nd Edition (about 9 years), 3E to 3.5E (around 10 years), and many other games/systems (including some proprietary ones that never made it to publication and some of my own personal design). Throughout all of this time, I tended to lean towards casters and rogues, but I would play any class as long as I had a fun roleplaying idea for it.

Something I didn't see mentioned in here after skimming a bit and reading the ones I found interesting (so I may be completely incorrect about this being unmentioned, and if so feel free to ignore this) is spell weaving or spell combos. Now I don't mean that you can pick two spells and mix their attributes (though if your DM is game and your Spellcrafting is high enough, then right on). What I am talking about is knowing how spells interact with each other either after having been cast (like Grease and Burning Hands causing all surfaces affected with Grease to become ignited, though this was removed in 3rd edition I am just using it as a reference) or during casting when paired with another caster/spell (such as wall of force or bigby's grasping hand being cast to enclose a tightly grouped enemy, and then wall of fire to engulf the area with crazy damage). The spells and how they will be allowed to interact will be solely at the discretion of your DM, so I'd discuss it with him prior to the event (or at least let him know you are planning on trying some spell combinations in game, and if he doesn't think they should fly, to just have your character fail (potentially in devastating fashion if he is the malicious sort) at the cast. Outside of this, the limit is purely your imagination and your ability to interpret the unspoken rules of the spells in your DM's world.

Most players I encounter believe that wizards are weak, and in a typical engagement they usually are of pretty limited use, however no other class has the potential to destroy an army with a single spell (ex, mass illusion to create an illusion of an army attacking said army across a field, when it is actually over a large gorge), completely derail a campaign by forcing an enemy to begin explaining every detail of his plot to destroy the kingdom (though in fairness a skilled Face combined with a bit of magic through items or potions can accomplish this as well), or even creating a situation where he becomes immortal or even a God (which is actually the same exact effect to the player as though the character had died, since you now have to hand your sheet over to the DM).

Seriously though, read the spells and how the spells work in 5th edition very carefully. Think about any synergies you can see, consider adding trap synergies to the list if you have a good rogue in the party as a spell laced trap can end an encounter before it even really begins. Learn any specific caster rules the DM wants for his world. Then finally, come up with a spell list that allows for the most versatile gameplay in the system (though please stay within your character's personality scope you designed when rolling him).
 

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barbzilla said:
As a note, I have not played 4th or 5th edition, but I started with Advanced Dungeons and Dragons (about 1 year), played AD&D 2nd Edition (about 9 years), 3E to 3.5E (around 10 years), and many other games/systems (including some proprietary ones that never made it to publication and some of my own personal design). Throughout all of this time, I tended to lean towards casters and rogues, but I would play any class as long as I had a fun roleplaying idea for it.

Something I didn't see mentioned in here after skimming a bit and reading the ones I found interesting (so I may be completely incorrect about this being unmentioned, and if so feel free to ignore this) is spell weaving or spell combos. Now I don't mean that you can pick two spells and mix their attributes (though if your DM is game and your Spellcrafting is high enough, then right on). What I am talking about is knowing how spells interact with each other either after having been cast (like Grease and Burning Hands causing all surfaces affected with Grease to become ignited, though this was removed in 3rd edition I am just using it as a reference) or during casting when paired with another caster/spell (such as wall of force or bigby's grasping hand being cast to enclose a tightly grouped enemy, and then wall of fire to engulf the area with crazy damage). The spells and how they will be allowed to interact will be solely at the discretion of your DM, so I'd discuss it with him prior to the event (or at least let him know you are planning on trying some spell combinations in game, and if he doesn't think they should fly, to just have your character fail (potentially in devastating fashion if he is the malicious sort) at the cast. Outside of this, the limit is purely your imagination and your ability to interpret the unspoken rules of the spells in your DM's world.

Most players I encounter believe that wizards are weak, and in a typical engagement they usually are of pretty limited use, however no other class has the potential to destroy an army with a single spell (ex, mass illusion to create an illusion of an army attacking said army across a field, when it is actually over a large gorge), completely derail a campaign by forcing an enemy to begin explaining every detail of his plot to destroy the kingdom (though in fairness a skilled Face combined with a bit of magic through items or potions can accomplish this as well), or even creating a situation where he becomes immortal or even a God (which is actually the same exact effect to the player as though the character had died, since you now have to hand your sheet over to the DM).

Seriously though, read the spells and how the spells work in 5th edition very carefully. Think about any synergies you can see, consider adding trap synergies to the list if you have a good rogue in the party as a spell laced trap can end an encounter before it even really begins. Learn any specific caster rules the DM wants for his world. Then finally, come up with a spell list that allows for the most versatile gameplay in the system (though please stay within your character's personality scope you designed when rolling him).
This guy has the right idea, although Warlock really isn't the best class for it considering at level 20 you have a total of 4 slots and your selection is quite limited, but if you decide to play a Bard considering that you can grab spells from any class you get to have a lot of fun with it, also see the illusionist Wizard, easily one of the most powerful Archetypes in the game, granted it's power comes from a level 13 ability so they don't gain their best ability until fairly late but with the ability to make their illusions [footnote]Any kind of any spell including minor illusion cantrip AKA free spell[/footnote] real for a moment[footnote]Time not specified, but the example given in the book is summoning a bridge to cross a chasm with the whole party and making it go back to an illusion once the party finishes crossing making the enemies chasing fall, which implies that it lasts a long enough to cross a bridge that is long enough to still have a large group of people in it[/footnote] with the only condition being that it can't directly damage the enemy the possibilities are practically endless just as long as you have imagination, do note that the only condition is that it can't directly damage the enemy, if you are creative enough Minor Illusion becomes the absolute best cantrip in the entire game, I mean just as a free illusion is already the most versatile but having that illusion become material or immaterial takes it to a whole new level.

Man I want to play Wizard so bad but people keep beating me to it in my party, I mean it's not bad I'm enjoying playing Paladin at the moment but man, they choose Wizard but don't go for illusionist, which is fine they aren't going for the deceitful Wizard and admittedly the other archetypes for Wizard are also fantastic but they are no illusionist, which I'll admit was the wizard I wanted to play even before I read that bit or the fact that they get an extra cantrip.
 

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Kaleion said:
barbzilla said:
As a note, I have not played 4th or 5th edition, but I started with Advanced Dungeons and Dragons (about 1 year), played AD&D 2nd Edition (about 9 years), 3E to 3.5E (around 10 years), and many other games/systems (including some proprietary ones that never made it to publication and some of my own personal design). Throughout all of this time, I tended to lean towards casters and rogues, but I would play any class as long as I had a fun roleplaying idea for it.

Something I didn't see mentioned in here after skimming a bit and reading the ones I found interesting (so I may be completely incorrect about this being unmentioned, and if so feel free to ignore this) is spell weaving or spell combos. Now I don't mean that you can pick two spells and mix their attributes (though if your DM is game and your Spellcrafting is high enough, then right on). What I am talking about is knowing how spells interact with each other either after having been cast (like Grease and Burning Hands causing all surfaces affected with Grease to become ignited, though this was removed in 3rd edition I am just using it as a reference) or during casting when paired with another caster/spell (such as wall of force or bigby's grasping hand being cast to enclose a tightly grouped enemy, and then wall of fire to engulf the area with crazy damage). The spells and how they will be allowed to interact will be solely at the discretion of your DM, so I'd discuss it with him prior to the event (or at least let him know you are planning on trying some spell combinations in game, and if he doesn't think they should fly, to just have your character fail (potentially in devastating fashion if he is the malicious sort) at the cast. Outside of this, the limit is purely your imagination and your ability to interpret the unspoken rules of the spells in your DM's world.

Most players I encounter believe that wizards are weak, and in a typical engagement they usually are of pretty limited use, however no other class has the potential to destroy an army with a single spell (ex, mass illusion to create an illusion of an army attacking said army across a field, when it is actually over a large gorge), completely derail a campaign by forcing an enemy to begin explaining every detail of his plot to destroy the kingdom (though in fairness a skilled Face combined with a bit of magic through items or potions can accomplish this as well), or even creating a situation where he becomes immortal or even a God (which is actually the same exact effect to the player as though the character had died, since you now have to hand your sheet over to the DM).

Seriously though, read the spells and how the spells work in 5th edition very carefully. Think about any synergies you can see, consider adding trap synergies to the list if you have a good rogue in the party as a spell laced trap can end an encounter before it even really begins. Learn any specific caster rules the DM wants for his world. Then finally, come up with a spell list that allows for the most versatile gameplay in the system (though please stay within your character's personality scope you designed when rolling him).
This guy has the right idea, although Warlock really isn't the best class for it considering at level 20 you have a total of 4 slots and your selection is quite limited, but if you decide to play a Bard considering that you can grab spells from any class you get to have a lot of fun with it, also see the illusionist Wizard, easily one of the most powerful Archetypes in the game, granted it's power comes from a level 13 ability so they don't gain their best ability until fairly late but with the ability to make their illusions [footnote]Any kind of any spell including minor illusion cantrip AKA free spell[/footnote] real for a moment[footnote]Time not specified, but the example given in the book is summoning a bridge to cross a chasm with the whole party and making it go back to an illusion once the party finishes crossing making the enemies chasing fall, which implies that it lasts a long enough to cross a bridge that is long enough to still have a large group of people in it[/footnote] with the only condition being that it can't directly damage the enemy the possibilities are practically endless just as long as you have imagination, do note that the only condition is that it can't directly damage the enemy, if you are creative enough Minor Illusion becomes the absolute best cantrip in the entire game, I mean just as a free illusion is already the most versatile but having that illusion become material or immaterial takes it to a whole new level.

Man I want to play Wizard so bad but people keep beating me to it in my party, I mean it's not bad I'm enjoying playing Paladin at the moment but man, they choose Wizard but don't go for illusionist, which is fine they aren't going for the deceitful Wizard and admittedly the other archetypes for Wizard are also fantastic but they are no illusionist, which I'll admit was the wizard I wanted to play even before I read that bit or the fact that they get an extra cantrip.
Should just tell 'em you want to play a wizard next. And then also just in case make the character sheet far in advance so you can put it out there the second you hear about a new game =P
 

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The Decapitated Centaur said:
Should just tell 'em you want to play a wizard next. And then also just in case make the character sheet far in advance so you can put it out there the second you hear about a new game =P
To be honest, I'm saving it for when I roll really good stats, in my table we always roll and I'm going to want good charisma for the character I want to make, in addition to good intelligence and at least decent dexterity and constitution, but once I it, it's going to be a blast, like I said right now I'm having fun with the Paladin although I don't like not being able to lie (Oath of Devotion, wanted to go for Vengeance but we have another Paladin but he's not good at RP at all[footnote]DM automatically makes the Paladin the leader and we didn't want him, last time I was the leader from the shadows so everyone decided it should be me, mostly because I have common sense, still I've been wanting to try Paladin for a while, I was sick of playing Rogue to be honest.[/footnote] and since we didn't want to have the same kind of character and neither of us is an Elf it was really up to Devotion and Vengeance and vengeance is a bit easier to RP, though so far all he's done is make me look good by comparison of how awful he is at RP, I'm awful at combat so it balances out.
 

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Kaleion said:
The Decapitated Centaur said:
Should just tell 'em you want to play a wizard next. And then also just in case make the character sheet far in advance so you can put it out there the second you hear about a new game =P
To be honest, I'm saving it for when I roll really good stats, in my table we always roll and I'm going to want good charisma for the character I want to make, in addition to good intelligence and at least decent dexterity and constitution, but once I it, it's going to be a blast, like I said right now I'm having fun with the Paladin although I don't like not being able to lie (Oath of Devotion, wanted to go for Vengeance but we have another Paladin but he's not good at RP at all[footnote]DM automatically makes the Paladin the leader and we didn't want him, last time I was the leader from the shadows so everyone decided it should be me, mostly because I have common sense, still I've been wanting to try Paladin for a while, I was sick of playing Rogue to be honest.[/footnote] and since we didn't want to have the same kind of character and neither of us is an Elf it was really up to Devotion and Vengeance and vengeance is a bit easier to RP, though so far all he's done is make me look good by comparison of how awful he is at RP, I'm awful at combat so it balances out.
By your power combined, you are two mediocre paladins!

But yeah, waiting for a good stats roll isn't a bad idea.

And yah, common sense is something you always want from the leader. Though having some people lacking it entirely is quite fun in other ways... XD
 

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DarklordKyo said:
Kaleion said:
Here's what I have thus far, any ideas?: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByAW86pWuT_ZeG4td1ZSdWYyRDA/view?usp=sharing
Starting out I think it's most important to define your personality are you really Chaotic Good?

A chaotic good character is generally the least likely to listen to other people's arguments, mostly because it means they have a very strong set of beliefs that drives them out of the norm, AKA what is normally accepted which tends to mean they have very extreme beliefs, sure you could listen to other people's arguments but it also implies that you are very likely to dismiss them immediately afterwards if they do not match your values or beliefs, generally the thoughtful kind of manipulative character that still listens to people and does some morally questionable things while still remaining good is the Neutral Good alignment, I mean willing to listen in chaotic good just means you'll listen just to dismiss them or tell them that they are wrong.[footnote]I must say that I am biased against CG, my characters always get in trouble because of them and consider them idiots and incompetent, never had a CG character that did not fight or got threatened to death by one of my characters, which tend to be very level-headed and reasonable, what I mean is that I hate CG and I think I immediately think a character is a complete idiot if they have that alignment, you develop weird biases when you play OK, but serious fuck Chaotic Good characters, "You DON'T burn the house down OK?! You fucking idiot!", "I swear to you if you get arrested again I will make sure to execute you myself, you have no idea how much work it took to get you out!", "I had to assassinate 2 people to get you out, 2 PEOPLE, I AM A THIEF DAMN IT, I DON'T ASSASSINATE PEOPLE!" <<<Things you'll say to the Chaotic Good character because Chaotic Good are just the worst.[/footnote]

Anyway disregarding my hatred of the chaotic good, unless that by secretive you mean you are a deceitful character it would be good to know which skills you have in order to compliment your personality but regardless, as far as spells if you have the Great Old one the Warlock has some cool options flavour-wise, mine mostly had utility shit like manipulating dreams, opening portals to other realms and my beloved banishment AKA the "literally go to hell you stupid piece of shit ranger", anyway I don't think that focusing on spells about knowledge and manipulation is a good idea in this case so let me take a look at the list, anyway I'm going to assume you are using the player's handbook only, here are my suggestions, now I wouldn't say go with this necessarily, but maybe give them a read and then compare them to other spells to see if you like them.

Cantrips:
Eldritch Blast -- A must for any Warlock really, Force damage, scales with level, upgradable through invocations.
Poison Spray -- Goes well with your Green Dragonborn thing, might be worth considering just for flavor.
Friends -- Advantage on charisma skills, always useful, but do be aware they'll know you used it once you're done.
Preregistration -- A variety of things, can be useful if you get creative, seems like party tricks but it can save your life.
Mage Hand -- Mostly useful if you land in jail[footnote]Which you will because you are a chaotic good piece of shit.[/footnote], but it's good for flavor, the Arcane Trickster Rogue gets the most use out of it.
Minor Illusion -- Only good if you are creative, but it can be a life saver, especially if you are sneaky.

Level 1:
Arms of Hadar: For Eldritch flavor it's good but it's only going to be useful for the Bladelock,[footnote]Pact of the Blade Warlock.[/footnote] if Bladelock also get Armor of Agathys.
Charm Person: More advanced Friends, good if you are going to be manipulating same drawback though.
Comprehend Languages: Good one if you are going to be traveling a lot.[footnote]Might be good to grab but as part of the Pact of the Tome pack of ritual spells instead, I mentioned before that my character did not have much use for it but do keep in mind that was a character that was a linguist and knew 7 languages total.[/footnote]
Expeditious Retreat: Good for cowards that want to run away[footnote]Running away is a valid a strategy and something you should consider, not every battle can be won, learn to run away when appropriate.[/footnote], not as good as Dimension Door though.
HEX -- This is your Bread and Butter, combos with Eldritch Blast and with your Pact Weapon if Bladelock.
Protection from Evil/Good -- This one is always good, definitely going to have use for it but kinda boring.
WitchBolt -- It's quite powerful at earlier levels, good attack spell.

Level 2:
Crown of Madness -- It's good for the Evil Elder God flavor, spooky.
Darkness -- Pretty good and pretty useful, especially if you have the Devil's Sight invocation.[footnote]Which you might need anyway if you are playing a dark campaign, since Dragonborn don't have Darkvision, note that it is better than Darkvision as it does not have distance limit and it works on Magical Darkness.[/footnote]
Hold Person -- Generally very useful I'd be surprised if you can't find a use for it.
Invisibility -- A must if you plan on being sneaky.
Mirror Image -- Can be useful, especially for a Bladelock.
Misty Step -- Sometimes it's better just to run, and this is really good, Bonus Action, you can still attack after using it.
Shatter -- Decent AOE spell but will damage your friends.
Spider Climb -- Can be very useful especially if you aren't going to have athletics, can also get you into hard to reach spaces for sniping.
Suggestion -- Another one for manipulators note that this one does not reveal the charm to the victim upon its end.

For the moment I've gotten bored with doing this but if you need more advice I'm happy to oblige, but to end, if you grab Pact of the tome, Comprehend Languages, Detect magic[footnote]If you aren't going to grab the Eldritch Sight Invocation, which is better because it eliminates the time requirement, but there are so many good Invocations that it's understandable.[/footnote] and Identify are fantastic as Rituals, definitely get all of them, if you go Bladelock make sure to get the 2 Bladelock invocations and combine it with the use of Hex, although Eldritch Blast ends up doing more damage that an average weapon, you can make any non sentient Magical Weapon into your Pact Weapon so it might be worth it if you find a really cool one.

Anyway this is basically up to level 3 which is when you get your Pact.
 

iwinatlife

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barbzilla said:
Most players I encounter believe that wizards are weak, and in a typical engagement they usually are of pretty limited use.
I had always heard the opposite.The phrase that comes to mind is Linear Warriors and Quadratic Wizards.
That Warriors Paladins and Rangers start strong but progress at a measured rate,
While Wizards Sorcerers and Clerics Start terribly weak but gain strength exponentially.
Although I always thought Clerics had the higher op potential, Especially evil clerics. Always wanted to make a Lawful Evil Cleric with a massive host of Undead following me. Possible eventual Lichdom if it had the right benefits.
 

barbzilla

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iwinatlife said:
barbzilla said:
Most players I encounter believe that wizards are weak, and in a typical engagement they usually are of pretty limited use.
I had always heard the opposite.The phrase that comes to mind is Linear Warriors and Quadratic Wizards.
That Warriors Paladins and Rangers start strong but progress at a measured rate,
While Wizards Sorcerers and Clerics Start terribly weak but gain strength exponentially.
Although I always thought Clerics had the higher op potential, Especially evil clerics. Always wanted to make a Lawful Evil Cleric with a massive host of Undead following me. Possible eventual Lichdom if it had the right benefits.
Really it is dependent on world and DM. Most of the DMs I can find around here are all into high magic worlds and all the players typically have magical weapons, armor, and trinkets by level 7-12 (note: this is not how I like to run my campaigns, but that has more to do with the fact that it doesn't matter what type of gear you give your character, a good DM knows how to balance the encounter to the difficulty the party is capable of handling, but still have a threat of death. I am also known to fudge rolls or stats on my encounters to make them more exciting or help save a character that deserves it for some reason or I just like the way they created its personality). In a high magic world, it is super easy for a level 12 warrior to out damage a level 12 mage on single target damage (and even potentially on group damage if the warrior is munchkining his way through the game (AKA power gaming). That isn't necessarily a bad way to play and it certainly made me more creative as a caster, it just isn't the way I prefer them. In a high magic world I typically grab 2 spells to for each need and try to make sure that they are the right ones before hand, because it is pointless to try and out DPS the warrior who's specialized with his keen bastard sword of sharpness and critting for 40+ damage. Instead I turn into Mr. Gadget and have a spell or utility set up for any situation I can think of.

On the other hand in a low magic world, the opposite tends to be true. The mage far out damages the rest of the party, and has high versatility (though when I do play in a low magic world, most of the other players typically want me to focus on meming war magics, but I find that boring. i'd rather have a couple of encouter wipe spell combos and then grab some versatility.
 

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barbzilla said:
it is super easy for a level 12 warrior to out damage a level 12 mage on single target damage
The problem with wizards has never really been that they do too much (or too little) damage in D&D. It's the fact that they can just bypass encounters in a variety of ways, often without even needing to make damage. A good spellcaster will throw a spell and stuff would happen - I cannot emphasise this enough. But let's explain - let's first look at a pure warrior - he swings a sword and has some chance to miss - in that case, nothing at all happens. If the fighter hits then the enemy takes some HP damage (though it might be mitigated, but let's ignore that) and...realistically, nothing happens, unless the enemy either dies or will die before its next turn. This is very important thing to consider - if a pure fighter doesn't kill their target, then they aren't actually affecting the combat that much - the enemy will still attack, activate an ability, or do another action which is still bad. And that's regardless of how much damage they do - even if each hit deals 99% of the total health, it's only worth it if the monster dies. Yes, you have the party there but if they miss or are occupied with other monsters or simply lack the damage output to kill a monster right now then the monster is still a problem. Yes, fighters can use few tricks to to inconvenience enemies like tripping them but that comes at a big cost - they usually forego damage to do that, and secondly, these tactics usually have less of a chance for success, so it's easier for a fighter to do absolutely nothing in a turn by failing. Finally, something that is perhaps merely funny, but it has at least some effect on the game - the best swordmasters are the clumsiest with a sword. You read that right, but let's explain - fighters usually have multiple attacks per turn and they usually have the most attacks per turn. So, this means that they roll attack the most times. Which by pure statistics means that they will roll the biggest amount of critical fumbles - a fighter with 4 attacks per round will, on average, roll a 1 on attack once every 5 rounds. So, for 100 rounds of combat (perhaps a week or two of encounters?), fighters will, on average, have managed to drop their swords, or attack the wrong guy or whatever 20 times. Let's assume that a lowly level 1 peasant was also there - they will have only managed to do something similar 5 times. So, to recap - a peasant will embarrass themselves with a sword less than a level 17 slayer of dragons. Depending on how the DM handles critical fumbles, that can be a problem.

Now, let's examine a smart wizard - a smart wizard will probably have some attack spells but that will not account for the majority of their arsenal. Speaking for 3.X (I've got the most experience with that edition), a level 1 wizard can throw Sleep and probably immediately end an encounter with, say, several kobolds - no need for HP damage. Even if the spell fizzles on some of them, chances are high that at least some would fall asleep. So, right off the bat, that's way more of an impact on combat as several of the enemies are not active any more. There are other spells, as well - some also take out targets by bypass HP like the save-or-die spells, others really inconvenience them like save-or-suck spells. Many spells even have multiple modes where they do an effect even if they "fail". Furthermore, when it comes to damage, spells can do guaranteed damage in a variety of ways - some can be saved against but what only deals half damage to enemies, for example.

So, spellcasters just get stuff done with spells. To compound the issue, they can attack a verity of factors, unlike fighters - most of the time, a fighter will just challenge AC, which could be good but if a target has a lot of it, then there is hard to find an easier way. At the same time, spellcasters could target AC with some spells but, if need be, they can target Will, Fortitude, or Reflexes - the choice is usually "which is the lowest", so if an enemy is well protected in one area, they can just exploit weak one(s). Moreover, some spells don't really have protection against - not total, at least, like the aforementioned "half damage on save" ones. Yes, there is spell resistance, but here is the thing - some spells ignore that, too. Not to mention that some spells don't even require the spellcaster to roll.

So, spellcasters can just do more and impact combat more with their skills, while not being hindered by enemy protection as much. They can take out enemies without bothering with HP, or they can make enemies ineffectual. At high levels, they just go completely out of control, too as all of those advantages just grow - they don't need to roll for a lot of challenges - if a wall needs to be scaled, they don't need to invest in Climb, they can just cast Fly, for example, they can make enemies into allies, bind various beings as servants and so on. HP damage is quite ineffectual at that point too, as enemies just get more of it, thus they take longer to die. Casters can still just bypass it completely - who cares that some monster with fifty hojillion hit points comes at them - high level wizards can deal with this in a single round still, for example, the monster could be enclosed in a little bubble of space and then banished to the depths of the earth. For an eternity. Good luck. If I remember correctly, the spell was listed as so strong that not even Wish or Miracle can bring the target out.
 

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iwinatlife said:
barbzilla said:
Most players I encounter believe that wizards are weak, and in a typical engagement they usually are of pretty limited use.
I had always heard the opposite.The phrase that comes to mind is Linear Warriors and Quadratic Wizards.
That Warriors Paladins and Rangers start strong but progress at a measured rate,
While Wizards Sorcerers and Clerics Start terribly weak but gain strength exponentially.
Although I always thought Clerics had the higher op potential, Especially evil clerics. Always wanted to make a Lawful Evil Cleric with a massive host of Undead following me. Possible eventual Lichdom if it had the right benefits.
Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards, Permanently OP Clerics is more like it.
 

DarklordKyo

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Kaleion said:
Well, I figured I'd choose Chaotic Good because he's chaotic for a different reason. The type of nightmares he's seen (from both warlock pact and trauma) would make him pretty unhinged, and he walks the line between sanity and insanity daily.

He's less The Punisher or Ragna the Bloodedge, and more a more psychologically-durable Lovecraft protagonist.
 

Saelune

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DarklordKyo said:
Kaleion said:
Well, I figured I'd choose Chaotic Good because he's chaotic for a different reason. The type of nightmares he's seen (from both warlock pact and trauma) would make him pretty unhinged, and he walks the line between sanity and insanity daily.

He's less The Punisher or Ragna the Bloodedge, and more a more psychologically-durable Lovecraft protagonist.
Just remember your alignment as a whole.

I personally prefer CG, but I consider my real life alignment most like CG.

It is Chaotic Neutral I have the most issue with, aka "I want an excuse to be a selfish jerk without having Paladins attack me".
 

barbzilla

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DoPo said:
sniped for space
I'm very aware of that. I only stated the damage variance as the reasoning most people give when I ask them why they think that melee classes are more powerful than casters. As far as I'm concerned... well you saw some of my suggestions and comments in the previous post as well as me saying multiple times I could easily either wipe, reset, or bypass an encounter (and sometimes the entire campaign... yeah my DM doesn't like it much when I hop on a mage, so I typically have to give myself some strange quirk to make up for it).

Anyway, the person I was replying to asked why I made the comment that people seem to think that melee classes are stronger, and I responded with the reason I most commonly hear, though some people just prefer them because their is a lot less to manage of the character. Other players just don't like the fact that you have a resource you have to take care of and keep memorized the right quantity of damage spells, mitigation or reality altering spells, persuasive or illusionary spells, and the ever present utility spells for situational encounters etc. and they get board in combat with regular enemies as they have to pretty much sit on their spells and save them for encounters that put the party at high risk.

In the end there are going to be as many reasons as their are people for why they feel certain ways about certain classes, and my knowledge is of little relevance at this point as my group took one look at 4th and said "Nope!" and went back to 2nd out of spite for a while (we are back on 3.5 and pathfinder right now though). So for all I know these issues could be completely different or have different mechanics guiding or controlling them.

Edit:
As an after thought, please try to remember I said most of the DMs that live near me tend to like playing in high power plentiful magic style worlds where the warrior or rogue can generally speaking find items for the right price that do actually make me pretty well redundant. After all what good is a wizard with cast limited by memory when (for example) a Rogue can have as many spells as he has scroll cases or room in his bags for, and he can do it for a simple 4 skill points at level 1 and 1 per level afterwards and can keep up with the spells the wizard would learn as he grows. Around level 12-15 the rogue actually outpaces the wizard entirely since he has an entire arsenal of spells at hand, more skill points than a bard can blow a flute at, magical weapons with improved duel wielding, improved critical, power critical (provided he's human and has the stats for it), a pair of keen scimitars of sharpness, a set of mithril chain armor +whatever, the ability to disarm traps, and the ability to backstab.

The fighter can do the same things only without disarm traps, backstabbing, and use magic item to allow cross classing items but makes up for it with extra HP, Saves, Attack Rating, and Feats (which can allow him the ability to cross class use magic items.... There really is a reason I don't like high magic worlds, and it isn't actually about how the DM does things so much as how the other players like to meta-game or power-game/munchkin (though my favorite DMs will find a way to punish the players who take it a bit too far). Anyway, maybe their is more to the melee classes being stronger than the wizard at least in some worlds with certain DMs/Groups.
 

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barbzilla said:
DoPo said:
sniped for space
I'm very aware of that. I only stated the damage variance as the reasoning most people give when I ask them why they think that melee classes are more powerful than casters. As far as I'm concerned... well you saw some of my suggestions and comments in the previous post as well as me saying multiple times I could easily either wipe, reset, or bypass an encounter (and sometimes the entire campaign... yeah my DM doesn't like it much when I hop on a mage, so I typically have to give myself some strange quirk to make up for it).

Anyway, the person I was replying to asked why I made the comment that people seem to think that melee classes are stronger, and I responded with the reason I most commonly hear, though some people just prefer them because their is a lot less to manage of the character. Other players just don't like the fact that you have a resource you have to take care of and keep memorized the right quantity of damage spells, mitigation or reality altering spells, persuasive or illusionary spells, and the ever present utility spells for situational encounters etc. and they get board in combat with regular enemies as they have to pretty much sit on their spells and save them for encounters that put the party at high risk.

In the end there are going to be as many reasons as their are people for why they feel certain ways about certain classes, and my knowledge is of little relevance at this point as my group took one look at 4th and said "Nope!" and went back to 2nd out of spite for a while (we are back on 3.5 and pathfinder right now though). So for all I know these issues could be completely different or have different mechanics guiding or controlling them.

Edit:
As an after thought, please try to remember I said most of the DMs that live near me tend to like playing in high power plentiful magic style worlds where the warrior or rogue can generally speaking find items for the right price that do actually make me pretty well redundant. After all what good is a wizard with cast limited by memory when (for example) a Rogue can have as many spells as he has scroll cases or room in his bags for, and he can do it for a simple 4 skill points at level 1 and 1 per level afterwards and can keep up with the spells the wizard would learn as he grows. Around level 12-15 the rogue actually outpaces the wizard entirely since he has an entire arsenal of spells at hand, more skill points than a bard can blow a flute at, magical weapons with improved duel wielding, improved critical, power critical (provided he's human and has the stats for it), a pair of keen scimitars of sharpness, a set of mithril chain armor +whatever, the ability to disarm traps, and the ability to backstab.

The fighter can do the same things only without disarm traps, backstabbing, and use magic item to allow cross classing items but makes up for it with extra HP, Saves, Attack Rating, and Feats (which can allow him the ability to cross class use magic items.... There really is a reason I don't like high magic worlds, and it isn't actually about how the DM does things so much as how the other players like to meta-game or power-game/munchkin (though my favorite DMs will find a way to punish the players who take it a bit too far). Anyway, maybe their is more to the melee classes being stronger than the wizard at least in some worlds with certain DMs/Groups.
Well if it comes to 9th level spells that's about 4k gold spent every spell. Of course that's way in the future. I mean if you have absolutely abundant gold I suppose a rogue could keep a ton of scrolls and act like a wizard...
 

barbzilla

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The Decapitated Centaur said:
Yet another of the issues with high magic worlds. When magic items are dropping like a hot pan picked up with a bare hand, it isn't hard to come by gold. Especially when you have players that work in business acquisitions and liquidation in the group. Though honestly I see this as more of an issue for the DM than myself.
 

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barbzilla said:
The Decapitated Centaur said:
Yet another of the issues with high magic worlds. When magic items are dropping like a hot pan picked up with a bare hand, it isn't hard to come by gold. Especially when you have players that work in business acquisitions and liquidation in the group. Though honestly I see this as more of an issue for the DM than myself.
I was wondering if that might be the case... Yeah I can really see your point here about this replication thing given enough gold and scroll access. Could always go for feats or class abilities to make it stand out, but I suppose they'll pale in comparison to being able to spam magic all day long