JRPGs and WRPGs both have stories, but JRPGs give you the story directly, while in many WRPGs you have to go out and find the story for yourself.
A Question about RPGs.
- Thread starter DreamKing
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Has anyone ever thought that maybe unnecessary "combat" just doesn't belong in games, especially rpgs? You are role playing after all and what if you don't want to kill anything? This is why I like Metal Gear Solid. You can avoid killing almost every soldier or enemy in the game except for the climatic showdowns. Or how about Harvest Moon or The Sims? These games are rpgs that allow you do more with your time than just killing innocent monsters for experience or gil. I am no pacifist because I enjoyed killing all those ultra tough enemies in Metal Gear Solid, but I didn't have to resort to violence unless I wanted to.
I think Final Fantasy, Dragonquest, Blue Dragon, and Phantasy Star can get away with having the characters kill a bunch of monsters and humans because the titles of these games are based on fake, supernatural fantasy. Unless you are illiterate, there is no way you can complain about it because you signed up to play games that have no basis in reality.
Star Ocean, Xenosaga, Lost Odyssey, Romancing Saga, Front Mission, and Chrono Cross are misleading though. These games are similar to The Bible in that they want you to believe that this type of crap could possibly happen in order to make you interested in the game. I think that is wrong especially when it has pseudo scientific, philosophical nonsense in it similar to Scientology. Xenosaga really made me angry because it tries to make you believe in some type of religious cult stuff.
It is just sad that the same guys who brought us Final Fantasy and Dragonquest made garbage like Star Ocean, Xenogears, Valkyrie Profile, and both of the Chrono games. And they are still pumping out Star Ocean games because people keep buying that crap thinking that we can explore space using rockets and wasting fuel like there is no tomorrow. I hope people stop buying it so Square can focus on more fantasy stuff.
I think Final Fantasy, Dragonquest, Blue Dragon, and Phantasy Star can get away with having the characters kill a bunch of monsters and humans because the titles of these games are based on fake, supernatural fantasy. Unless you are illiterate, there is no way you can complain about it because you signed up to play games that have no basis in reality.
Star Ocean, Xenosaga, Lost Odyssey, Romancing Saga, Front Mission, and Chrono Cross are misleading though. These games are similar to The Bible in that they want you to believe that this type of crap could possibly happen in order to make you interested in the game. I think that is wrong especially when it has pseudo scientific, philosophical nonsense in it similar to Scientology. Xenosaga really made me angry because it tries to make you believe in some type of religious cult stuff.
It is just sad that the same guys who brought us Final Fantasy and Dragonquest made garbage like Star Ocean, Xenogears, Valkyrie Profile, and both of the Chrono games. And they are still pumping out Star Ocean games because people keep buying that crap thinking that we can explore space using rockets and wasting fuel like there is no tomorrow. I hope people stop buying it so Square can focus on more fantasy stuff.
I must ask... "feels like a british guy made it"? Where the hell does that come from? Oh, X game is unbalanced, a British guy probably made it. Care to explain what you mean?Kyuumi said:
All RPGs can be compared to D&D, typically because 99.99999999999999 *GASP* 999999% of RPGs are ripping it off in one way or another.
The videogame RPG world has two camps; the slack-jawed drooling idiots who yell "TRESUER! YAAAR!" and rush every bastard dungeon with intent to hack everything inside to pieces, and the disturbing nerdy types who obsessively map every square inch on graph paper and go around calling themselves "Great Sorcerer Zoldimac".
These two groups can typically be classed as "Western" RPGs for the former, and "Japanese" RPGs for the latter. Sadly, unlike D&D, they rather miss out on the all-important third category; the "D&D" RPG.
The beauty of D&D is that somewhere between kicking the door in style Dungeon-blitzing and being able to read and write fluently in Abyssal, we have normality. Most D&D gamers appreciate a bit of cleverness because solving problems with brains makes them feel clever. Likewise, they all enjoy the occasional smash-and-grab because the Fighter just bought a +4 Holy Bastard Sword and is determined some poor Undead sod's going to get on the receiving end before the night is out. A 'typical' D&D adventure can swing between these two peaks, but typically goes down the middle-road; you put a few traps, locks and obstacles to overcome with brains, then you smash the brains out of whatever's waiting up ahead.
Sadly, RPGs in videogaming don't seem to have grasped this. In theory, the Videogame middle-road is the MMORPG, which is so unlike the social event of playing D&D with a few mates around the kitchen table it's frightening. Ideally, we need to find a way to get RPGs to recognise the benefit of a big, complicated story, but to do so without resorting to the T-Rex on The Plains.
The videogame RPG world has two camps; the slack-jawed drooling idiots who yell "TRESUER! YAAAR!" and rush every bastard dungeon with intent to hack everything inside to pieces, and the disturbing nerdy types who obsessively map every square inch on graph paper and go around calling themselves "Great Sorcerer Zoldimac".
These two groups can typically be classed as "Western" RPGs for the former, and "Japanese" RPGs for the latter. Sadly, unlike D&D, they rather miss out on the all-important third category; the "D&D" RPG.
The beauty of D&D is that somewhere between kicking the door in style Dungeon-blitzing and being able to read and write fluently in Abyssal, we have normality. Most D&D gamers appreciate a bit of cleverness because solving problems with brains makes them feel clever. Likewise, they all enjoy the occasional smash-and-grab because the Fighter just bought a +4 Holy Bastard Sword and is determined some poor Undead sod's going to get on the receiving end before the night is out. A 'typical' D&D adventure can swing between these two peaks, but typically goes down the middle-road; you put a few traps, locks and obstacles to overcome with brains, then you smash the brains out of whatever's waiting up ahead.
Sadly, RPGs in videogaming don't seem to have grasped this. In theory, the Videogame middle-road is the MMORPG, which is so unlike the social event of playing D&D with a few mates around the kitchen table it's frightening. Ideally, we need to find a way to get RPGs to recognise the benefit of a big, complicated story, but to do so without resorting to the T-Rex on The Plains.
I'm leaning to disagree on JRPGs having good combat mechanics compared to westerns. I've been playing Chrono Trigger for the DS since christmas and re-living the nostalgia experience with the story again. It's still loads of fun, but the combat is...Well...Slow.
This is coming from a guy who can play Etrian Odyssey on his DS as well. Turn-based games can be fun and hold lots of strategy, but when I look at Chrono Trigger, it just reminded me of a procedural program I write in C++ where the computer could only do one thing at a time. I have to wait first before Chrono's cleave skill finishes on a monster before the next skill in the queue, Ayla's Boulder Toss, starts up. Oh it's still great, but it just reminds me of how primitive and slow-paced JRPG combat is.
The pokemon series is another one that comes to mind. My sister and I actually timed how long a simple random encounter in Pokemon Pearl at the beginning takes. It was like 40 to 60 seconds from beginning to end, and that is with no animation and fast text on! Of course Chrono Trigger is not this bad, but JRPGs just relatively feel slow in combat compared to a fast-paced RPG like "Diablo" series or "Deus Ex". Strategy is something I'd say Etrian Odyssey or the Megaten (SMT: Nocture, Persona, etc.) series do well at, but I've seen most JRPGs just focus more on beating the enemy fast and with little resources.
Actually they do throw in a monster that might absorb or reflect a common move you spam frequently. In Chrono Trigger, I'm at this point where I found these frogs that can absorb Chrono's Luminaire, which means I can't kill them easily. Still, I just switch to different moves and move on to the next monster to slay.
If you have a Game Boy Advance or a Nintendo DS, I would recommend looking for either "Mazes of Fate" game. It is turn-based, but is a pure classic dungeon crawler that gets really fun when you get 3 party members. The game also has an interactive story that can change according to your character's decisions. "Rune Factory" 1 or 2 is another RPG to recommend, which are from the makers of Harvest Moon series but with dungeon crawling elements thrown in.
This is coming from a guy who can play Etrian Odyssey on his DS as well. Turn-based games can be fun and hold lots of strategy, but when I look at Chrono Trigger, it just reminded me of a procedural program I write in C++ where the computer could only do one thing at a time. I have to wait first before Chrono's cleave skill finishes on a monster before the next skill in the queue, Ayla's Boulder Toss, starts up. Oh it's still great, but it just reminds me of how primitive and slow-paced JRPG combat is.
The pokemon series is another one that comes to mind. My sister and I actually timed how long a simple random encounter in Pokemon Pearl at the beginning takes. It was like 40 to 60 seconds from beginning to end, and that is with no animation and fast text on! Of course Chrono Trigger is not this bad, but JRPGs just relatively feel slow in combat compared to a fast-paced RPG like "Diablo" series or "Deus Ex". Strategy is something I'd say Etrian Odyssey or the Megaten (SMT: Nocture, Persona, etc.) series do well at, but I've seen most JRPGs just focus more on beating the enemy fast and with little resources.
Actually they do throw in a monster that might absorb or reflect a common move you spam frequently. In Chrono Trigger, I'm at this point where I found these frogs that can absorb Chrono's Luminaire, which means I can't kill them easily. Still, I just switch to different moves and move on to the next monster to slay.
If you have a Game Boy Advance or a Nintendo DS, I would recommend looking for either "Mazes of Fate" game. It is turn-based, but is a pure classic dungeon crawler that gets really fun when you get 3 party members. The game also has an interactive story that can change according to your character's decisions. "Rune Factory" 1 or 2 is another RPG to recommend, which are from the makers of Harvest Moon series but with dungeon crawling elements thrown in.
Definitely.Wargamer said:
Huh?Wargamer said:
A large class of players are interested in watching a cool story with fighting as pretty much just light entertainment on the side. And many games, both "Eastern" and "Western", cater specifically to this kind of thing.
I don't think D&D itself represents a middle group between extremes, either, but that's a matter for another thread.
-- Alex
The reason D&D represents the middle group is largely because of how open it is - as the players (or rather, the DM, who is 'technically' playing the game as well) pretty much define every aspect of how much, or how little story there is, and the same with combat, it generally falls into a happy medium. People don't play RPGs for hack-'n'-slash thrills, that's what hack-'n'-slash games are for. Likewise, you don't play RPGs solely for the story, because you might as well watch a film, or read a book. There's a happy mid-ground where everything works well together, and that appears far more in tabletop RPGs than computer-based ones.
I think that video games are limited in the amount of stuff that can they put in, but that problem has been solved somewhat by downloadable content. There is a Fallout 3 expansion pack that is coming out that allows the main character to survive after the water purifier turns on. I don't know if there is a patch or expansion tha will let me target opponent's body parts with melee weapons or if there is a dual wielding option. I do not own any JRPGs that have a DLC option, by from what I am used to with my older ones, is that even though the animations for magic and attacking, there will always be a new item waiting for me to use it.Wargamer said:
It's less the amount of stuff (a DM is limited too) it's more the Inflexibility of what the player can do with that stuff. For Example with Fallout 3 if it were a Table-Top RPG then you could simply ditch Project Purity and simply make a better water purification system using the ones in the vaults. Hell in a table top game you could play a character other than a normal guy with a gun.DreamKing said:
Err..what? that made no sense at all. Those games are just as "misleading" as dragon quest, final fantasy ect, your argument holds no ground. You call those games garbage because...why? game like final fantasy also followed the same story telling formulas and themes. These games are rpg's not simulators, they are supposed to have fantasy type scenerios, the way they "want you to beleive" in them is the same way as immersing you in a whole other world.R.O. said:
Honestly calling games garbage because they use cultural themes, real mythos, and speudo science to spin and tell a good story is rather shallow to do. You need to broaden your concept of fantasy a little.
Well, I know I play pen-and-paper RPGs chiefly for "story". They're collaborative, improvisational, and personal, which is different from the experience of reading a book or watching a movie. I like the game-mechanical geegaws of an RPG (maybe I should say some RPGs) because they set constraints that make it easier to create compelling fiction on the fly; I don't usually enjoy fiddling with the fiddly bits for their own sake.Wargamer said:
When I want a balance of (non-collaborative, non-improvisational, not-very-personal) story and hack-n-slash gameplay, I actually turn to video-game RPGs. Hack-n-slash combat is way faster than it is on the tabletop; sometimes it's more interesting tactically, too (the much-vaunted flexibility of pen-and-paper RPGs actually makes combat less tactics-focused). The storylines are limited but fairly well-written, which is more than you can expect from a just-follow-my-plot GM.
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Honestly, though, is a Bioware game all that different from playing through a railroaded-but-well-designed D&D campaign? The distribution of fighting monsters, talking to shopkeepers, and advancing the plot in Baldur's Gate 2 certainly isn't much different from the distribution of fighting monsters, advancing the plot, and talking to shopkeepers in Against the Giants, or in Queen of the Demonweb Pits, or in Dragons of Despair, or in Keep on the Shadowfell, or in most play reports you would find on a D&D forum.
-- Alex
My favorite RPG of all time has to be Golden Sun. The story and characters are very well developed and has great combat. although, there aren't many side quests, as they all lead to the same goal really. But, it has fun combat with the addition of Djinn, and a great story with great characters
I think I agree with you somewhat here. For one, Crystal Chronicles was a big dissappointment to me at least, but the other FF games (considered JRPGS) have such an in-depth story I really don't know what you're talking about. A JRPG that I found that focuses a little on both is Tales of Symphonia for gamecube. It doesn't have the turn based combat system but lets you control each individual character as to whats needed. I never really understood the you-go I go bullshit.
HOWEVER
There is one exception to this which is Legend of Dragoon.
By far my favorite RPG, even though it is old as the hills. Even though its turn based, the amount of animation and characterization won me over till the very end. The story took many twists and turns which kept me on the edge. By the final conclusion, I was deeply saddened that it was over. I still to this day hold it as my all-time favorite game. Here's hoping to a LoD remake or LoD2 =D
HOWEVER
There is one exception to this which is Legend of Dragoon.
By far my favorite RPG, even though it is old as the hills. Even though its turn based, the amount of animation and characterization won me over till the very end. The story took many twists and turns which kept me on the edge. By the final conclusion, I was deeply saddened that it was over. I still to this day hold it as my all-time favorite game. Here's hoping to a LoD remake or LoD2 =D
I think Elder Scrolls: Oblivion's combat system was fabulous. It had a healthy supply of button mashing and manslaughter for my inner FPS player as well as a level of martial skill that challenged me. That said, I really only used the melee combat system. Needless to say, the Elder Scrolls franchise has some of the best and most expansive intellectual property of any swords & sorcery franchise today. So, in general, yes, I think having storyline and combat coincide is completely possible.... And has been done.
I have played too many FF games (3).delta4062 said:
And I DO AGREE VERY FUCKING MUCH!!!
E.g. in FF VII on Ps1: At least ten lessons on how to junction this and junction that... blah blah blah............
Couldn't they just have said 'equip'?.......
JRPGS focus more on combat?
No on Square Enix's life...........