A question for Christians

Houseman

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Assuming the following premises:
  • God exists
  • God knows the future
  • God can't be wrong
How can anyone be said to have free will?

If God sees that someone is going to go to Hell, then why should that person even try to be good?
Why is God predetermining that people should go to Hell before they are even born to begin with?
Why reward or punish us based on what we can't change or control?

Unless there's some explanation, then it seems like the only way that God can be good is if God doesn't/can't know the future.
 
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Xprimentyl

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I’ve actually posed this question to practicing Christians for decades.

In Catholicism (the religion I was raised in,) God is bestowed three primary properties: omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence; knows everything, is everywhere and is infinitely capable. Then we’re sold “free will,” the assumption that we choose to do right or wrong and suffer or gain in the eternal sense for those choices. But if God knows everything, he knew the choices we would make eons before we ever make them in the grander scheme of “God’s plan.” And none of us asked to be here, “gifted” this life of servitude towards a silent, invisible father who holds our very eternal fates in his hand. Either free will is an illusion or God is fallible. Catholics believe the Pope, the head of the Catholic church, to be an infallible human, but no one wants to suggest that God effectively has to be fallible in order for our choices to have any weight; he can’t know what we’re going to do if our “choices” determine our fate.

Hence I fell into agnosticism. I do believe in a God, but I believe him to be beyond our understanding and thusly, knowing his will and intention (if any) is beyond our capabilities. Do I believe the words of the Bible? Not really. Stories from a people two thousand years less learned than ourselves and more susceptible to seeing an exceptional act of nature as a miraculous act of God and write stories about them, i.e.: Hurricane Katrina could easily have been “God’s smiting of a city that prides itself on debauchery and hedonism.” But to think our perfect existence (“perfect” as in the sequence of cosmic coincidences necessary for us to exist are incalculably minute) were initiated by happenstance, I find equally unlikely. I’m also open to the idea that yes, they could have been purely coincidental and we’re an accidental result.

So at the end of the day, I subscribe to the tenet that I treat everyone as I’d like to be treated, with respect, dignity and tolerance. I don’t “know” anymore than a Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, etc., so I’m not going to pretend I do let alone try to sell anyone on my personal beliefs. And when people start blowing up innocent people because “God” or knocking on my door because “God,” or telling me I’m living my life (one of respect, dignity and tolerance of others at MINIMUM) incorrectly because “God” my beliefs don’t align with their own, my disdain rangers from eye-rolls to disgust.

Any God I believe in doesn't permit the existence of a Hell. Why create an eternal consequence for someone if they're not told plainly the rules of life? Where's the burning bush in the 21st century? How many variations of God and an afterlife must we sift through only to be told at the end that we're the biggest loser in the game of life we never asked to play? I can be a good person, yet a bad Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Christian, (not sure how to be a bad atheist) by any standards outlined by those particular faiths; do I deserve go to Hell? Because I live a decent life, but with as many sets of rules that life came with, it's easy to get confused; eternal suffering seems a steep penalty by any standard.
 
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Bob_McMillan

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I don't see what God being all powerful and all knowing has to do with our free will. Should the question not be "If God has a plan, then do we have free will? Why does God allow terrible things to happen?" And etcetera.
 

Houseman

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I don't see what God being all powerful and all knowing has to do with our free will.
If the "all-knowing" part includes knowledge of the future, if the future can be known, then we don't have free will.
But those other questions are just as valid.
 

fOx

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If the "all-knowing" part includes knowledge of the future, if the future can be known, then we don't have free will.
But those other questions are just as valid.
I mean, when I asked whether slavery constituted social welfare, I already knew what your response was going to be. But I didn't force you to make it, and I was still disappointed.

It's like that.
 

Satinavian

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Ok, that is a lot of difficult stuff. And some of the answers are personal belief, not canon, even if i am catholic.

In Catholicism (the religion I was raised in,) God is bestowed three primary properties: omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence; knows everything, is everywhere and is infinitely capable. Then we’re sold “free will,” the assumption that we choose to do right or wrong and suffer or gain in the eternal sense for those choices. But if God knows everything, he knew the choices we would make eons before we ever make them in the grander scheme of “God’s plan.” And none of us asked to be here, “gifted” this life of servitude towards a silent, invisible father who holds our very eternal fates in his hand. Either free will is an illusion or God is fallible.
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One could say that free will is indeed an illusions. But not because god knows all of our decisions beforehand. Ask yourself, if some timetraveller came and knew about the decisions you will do tomorrow and all their consequences, would those decisions stop being yours ? No, they wouldn't. Just because the future is fixed and someone knows it, that doesn't stop free will as long as that knowledge is not known to you.

The reason why one could say there is no free will, is because god not just knows all our decisions, but could have made us different if he wanted to make us make different decisions.
Catholics believe the Pope, the head of the Catholic church, to be an infallible human, but no one wants to suggest that God effectively has to be fallible in order for our choices to have any weight; he can’t know what we’re going to do if our “choices” determine our fate
Now back to canon. Catholics don't actually believe the pope is infallible, only that he is infallable when speaking ex cathedra. Which he basically never does. It is very much part of catholic doctrine that nearly everything the pope says might be wrong or misguided and that the pope is just a human like all the other priests. Infallability is a power the first Vaticanum bestowed to the pope to have a final say for the doctrine so that he can overrule all other bishops. But because of how binding it is for future popes and theologians and because you need a concil to revert such a decision, popes don't use it. There are also branches of Catholicism that don't accept this pope power even if never used, most famously the Old Catholics.
Hence I fell into agnosticism. I do believe in a God, but I believe him to be beyond our understanding and thusly, knowing his will and intention (if any) is beyond our capabilities. Do I believe the words of the Bible? Not really. Stories from a people two thousand years less learned than ourselves and more susceptible to seeing an exceptional act of nature as a miraculous act of God and write stories about them, i.e.: Hurricane Katrina could easily have been “God’s smiting of a city that prides itself on debauchery and hedonism.” But to think our perfect existence (“perfect” as in the sequence of cosmic coincidences necessary for us to exist are incalculably minute) were initiated by happenstance, I find equally unlikely. I’m also open to the idea that yes, they could have been purely coincidental and we’re an accidental result.
Bilbical literacy is something for protestants. Catholics have a really long tradition of interpreting the bible allegorcal and considering the circumstances it was written it.
It is less a book of "These things really happened" and more a book of "Educational stories and guidelines". Considering that a lot of Jesus' teachings are clear and blatant allegories, it is not farfetched to interpret the other bible stories with a similar mindset.

And yes, an allknowing god can't really be surprised, and won't be irritatedly dealing out punishment stors for cities. In fact, a lot of Jesus teachings are about how the poor, miserable people having various problems are certainly not punished by god and how being rich and successful is not a sign of gods favor and more a sign that you did not do enough to help others.
That is also why i consider the Prosperity gospel as one of the worst heresies in existance.

Any God I believe in doesn't permit the existence of a Hell.
I don't actually believe in hell. In Catholicism every human is a sinner and every sin can be forgiven. There is not really much difference between one human and another and making some arbitrary threshhold about how much sin is acceptable would be pretty unfair. I also do believe that people can still ask forgiveness after they died and are in the presence of god and every sin they want to be forgiven, will be forgiven which allows everyone to avoid hell.
But i also do believe that people can chose not to reconcile with god after death which would technically damn them. How various kinds of afterlives actually work, i am not really sure. Bible descriptions here are clearly metaphors about pleasant and less pleasant things. But as afterlifes clearly can't follow the same natural laws as our phisical world, it is probably very strange.
Modern Catholicism itself is also pretty vague on the idea of hell. There is the sentiment that the punishment for unforgiven sins is distance to god and not getting to bask in his glory. But what that means practically is everyones guess.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Assuming the following premises:
  • God exists
  • God knows the future
  • God can't be wrong
How can anyone be said to have free will?

If God sees that someone is going to go to Hell, then why should that person even try to be good?
Why is God predetermining that people should go to Hell before they are even born to begin with?
Why reward or punish us based on what we can't change or control?

Unless there's some explanation, then it seems like the only way that God can be good is if God doesn't/can't know the future.
You know a child will eventually hurt themselves if they go outside to play everyday. You can tell them what not to do and take precautions for the worst injuries so that they don't happen but you're going to have to let them use their own judgement outside because letting them avoid bumps and bruises on their own, having free will, is better for them than directing them in every move they make.

Or to put it another way, you see in stories that have people that can see the future often having plot points centered on the person with future prediction debating whether or not they should tell someone what they foresaw. This sounds like you're more debating whether we have free will in general rather than specifically whether it exists for Christians because the question of what free will is and whether all we are is reactions to other actions is a far more broad philosophical question.
 

Xprimentyl

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One could say that free will is indeed an illusions. But not because god knows all of our decisions beforehand. Ask yourself, if some timetraveller came and knew about the decisions you will do tomorrow and all their consequences, would those decisions stop being yours ? No, they wouldn't. Just because the future is fixed and someone knows it, that doesn't stop free will as long as that knowledge is not known to you.
And you stumble upon the crux of the dilemma. Let's make a more literal analogy: if I write a book with characters I created per my specific design, do any of the characters within it have free will? Do they make any actual choices? Do they at all control their fate? The "future being fixed and someone knows it" is not the same as the "future being fixed because someone CREATED it."

So, back to the premises Houseman put forth in the OP: God exists, knows the future and can't be wrong, then it's impossible to say we have true free will.

However, one thing Houseman did not put forth is that we should assume God created everything. I assumed that was the case because most often, when people mention a singular "God" with a capital "G," that's what they mean, but for funsies, we could assume that God is an all-powerful being that exists with dominion over our immortal souls yet is NOT our creator. He simply watches over and judges us for the choices we make, but what kind of pointless existence would that be? He'd effectively be the operator of an amusement park ride, issuing a procession of first-time riders onto and off the endless loop of the same rollercoaster, repeating the same set of rules, checking the same safety harnesses, etc. Have you ever looked into the eyes of one of those guys? They're dead inside, yet they somehow manage to be the stewards of joy and thrill.

Another scenario might be God knows everything and willfully ignores the future or, by some ability, gives himself amnesia and truly watches his creation in blind judgment, but how sadistic an idea is that? A God that created the game, shuffled the deck, dealt the cards to us then said "the rules are kinda wishy-washy; figure it out as you go. Oh, and by the way, instead of chips, you're playing with your immortal soul."
 

Satinavian

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As i said, an omniscient god does not conflict with free will. Someone knowing our decisions does not change who makes them.
But an omnipotent god does conflict with free will because having complete control over everything implies also control over every decision everyone makes.

Another thing not yet mentioned is that an omniscient god does know all his own decisions, ideas, thoughts all the time and thus can never change his opinion. In the same way an omnipotent god can not only act on the here and how but on the past and future as well, all the time. Taken together that means that there is no sense in stating that god does or thinks anything at a certain time only. He is a timeless being altogether, he does not really exist in time anymore than he exists at specific places. Considering that time is also something strictly in-universe that stops to make sense when you approach the boundaries of the universe, one should really not consider the creator to be part of the creation. God is outside of timeflow and causality if he is omniscient and omnipotent.
 

Xprimentyl

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As i said, an omniscient god does not conflict with free will. Someone knowing our decisions does not change who makes them.
It's not merely someone "knowing" them; it's someone who CREATED them.

But an omnipotent god does conflict with free will because having complete control over everything implies also control over every decision everyone makes.
It doesn't just "imply," it ASSUMES it.

Another thing not yet mentioned is that an omniscient god does know all his own decisions, ideas, thoughts all the time and thus can never change his opinion. In the same way an omnipotent god can not only act on the here and how but on the past and future as well, all the time. Taken together that means that there is no sense in stating that god does or thinks anything at a certain time only. He is a timeless being altogether, he does not really exist in time anymore than he exists at specific places. Considering that time is also something strictly in-universe that stops to make sense when you approach the boundaries of the universe, one should really not consider the creator to be part of the creation. God is outside of timeflow and causality if he is omniscient and omnipotent.
Note that you're saying what an omnipotent and omniscient being can and cannot do and know. How that being can and cannot exist. Assuming limits to properties that are, by virtue of their very definition, defined as "limitless."
 

Satinavian

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Note that you're saying what an omnipotent and omniscient being can and cannot do and know. How that being can and cannot exist. Assuming limits to properties that are, by virtue of their very definition, defined as "limitless."
Omnipotency does not include being able to do selfcontradictory ill-defined stuff. Otherwise we get to this stone-lifting nonsense. If omnipotency does include power X then an omnipotent being cannot be in a state that precludes having power X.

A "limitless" being cannot be bound by limits. If your befinition of omnipotency does not include that, the problem is with the definition. It is just one of four primary dimensions and does not even flow in the same way everywhere.
 
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Xprimentyl

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Omnipotency does not include being able to do selfcontradictory ill-defined stuff. Otherwise we get to this stone-lifting nonsense. If omnipotency does include power X then an omnipotent being cannot be in a state that precludes having power X.

A "limitless" being cannot be bound by limits. If your befinition of omnipotency does not include that, the problem is with the definition.
You're speaking of "God" in a very abstract way, one I think is outside the spirit of the OP's thought experiment. God, in the context of this thread, is not a "thing" bound by literal and physical semantics. Assume "God" is a thinking being, one with a will and intent who so happens to be the omnipotent and omniscient creator of all things; don't say he "cannot be bound by limits," imagine he can choose to confine his focus as he sees fit.

Or continue down this meta-rabbit hole, weighing the various aspects of "a God" on your scales of logic and feasibility until you conclude God simply cannot exist; as an agnostic, I see that as equally possible as anything else.
 

Satinavian

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You're speaking of "God" in a very abstract way, one I think is outside the spirit of the OP's thought experiment. God, in the context of this thread, is not a "thing" bound by literal and physical semantics. Assume "God" is a thinking being, one with a will and intent who so happens to be the omnipotent and omniscient creator of all things; don't say he "cannot be bound by limits," imagine he can choose to confine his focus as he sees fit.
Of course he could limit himself. But as long as he is all-powerful, he obviously has not done so. Or maybe he did and we call the result Jesus, a both divine and very much limited presence. But that has not really stopped him being everywhere and everytime and all-powerfull anyway.

I do believe that god is a being with will and intent but also unchanging and timeless. Time itself is only part of the creation and loses any meaning when apllied to greater concepts.
 

Houseman

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Ask yourself, if some timetraveller came and knew about the decisions you will do tomorrow and all their consequences, would those decisions stop being yours ? No, they wouldn't. Just because the future is fixed and someone knows it, that doesn't stop free will as long as that knowledge is not known to you.
"As long as that knowledge is not known to you?"
Are you saying, then, that if someone tells you your future, you lose your free will?

In any case, I'd say the answer to your first question is "yes". If a time traveler came to you and told you about the decisions that you are going to make, they would stop being your decisions. Actually, it would shatter the illusion that you've ever had free will. If someone told you that, tomorrow, you're having oatmeal for breakfast, and you try to change that future, but can't, then by definition you do not have free will.

Free will is the ability to make choices. If you can't choose to eat anything other than oatmeal for breakfast, despite your attempts, then you must not have free will.
You might think the decisions are yours, but introducing knowledge of your own future shatters that illusion because you can't choose to change it.
 

Satinavian

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"As long as that knowledge is not known to you?"
Are you saying, then, that if someone tells you your future, you lose your free will?
Yes, time travel can (not must) destroy causality. If it does, it puts the concept of free will into question because it stops being possible to say what actually caused the decision. That is what happens when cause and effect don't work anymore.

But what actually breaks causality is not the timetraveller knowing your decision. That is still fine and preserves free will. What breaks it is the time traveller telling you. Then you suddenly have a closed timelike trajectory carrying the information of your decision that stops coming from somewhere.

Free will is about "Where does the decision really come from, why did it happen", not about who knows about it but did not contribute to the process.


@Xprimentyl : Because i had Houseman on ignore, i thought, yours were the opening post, sorry.


As for the real OP answer : There is no hell, everyone gets saved. That is how god can be good. There is also not really free will as god the allknowing creator is responsible for everything.
 
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Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
I don't see what God being all powerful and all knowing has to do with our free will. Should the question not be "If God has a plan, then do we have free will? Why does God allow terrible things to happen?" And etcetera.
House is trying to do a Epicurus quote.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”


And asking how christians come to terms with such.
 

Houseman

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But what actually breaks causality is not the timetraveller knowing your decision. That is still fine and preserves free will. What breaks it is the time traveller telling you. Then you suddenly have a closed timelike trajectory carrying the information of your decision that stops coming from somewhere.
I don't think it makes any difference whether or not the time traveler tells you about your future. I think the important part is whether or not the future can be known at all.

If we think of time, or just the future, as a book, where all the events are written down, then those words are written down whether we open the book or not. If one's future can be known, then it is already set in stone. The person having knowledge of it doesn't change anything, it only preserves or shatters the illusion.

I'm not so interested in the illusion, I'm more interested in the actual workings behind the illusion.

You could resolve this by just having the time traveler "create" a new timeline when he travels back, or when he tells the person, which may make it possible for him to be wrong. I prefer the "different timeline" style of fictional time travel to the "stuck in a loop" style. But this can't apply to God, because God can't be wrong.


House is trying to do a Epicurus quote.
No I'm not. I'm primarily talking about God's knowledge of the future and how it impacts free will. Any other consequences from following this line of reasoning are secondary.