A question for non British people

[catalyst8]

As for the Falklands, there was no way to avoid that. The Argentinian army invaded and occupied our territory. As in: Not threatening action, they had already done it. America tried to mediate a solution but the Argentines told them to fuck off in no uncertain terms. In the end the US prohibited arms sales and backed the UK. This was not a 'fake war' or a political war, this was the UK protecting her territory against invaders.

EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_General_Belgrano#Sinking_of_ARA_Belgrano

That's a pretty good summary of the sinking of the Belgrano, read the section on 'controversy'. Our Government didn't receive any news about a possible cease fire until afterwards. We also kept offering a ceasefire, history has forgotten that in the same way as a lot of what happened in Vietnam has been forgotten.

It's appalling that you think Wikipedia is in any way a useful or reliable source, I suggest you look at the available official records instead (some cited below). The main body of these are the court records for then Head of MoD Navel Operations Clive Ponting's prosecution under the Official Secrets Act (acquitted) at the Old Bailey in 1985; Commons minutes; official statements by Ponting, Dalyell, & Thatcher; & Lawrence Freedman's official account published in June 2005. The records sent to Tam Dalyell by Ponting (the now famous Crown Jewels) clearly demonstrate Thatcher's selfishly ruthless disregard for truth, law & life in her struggle for re-election.

The initial so-called 'occupation' consisted of a few scrap metal scavengers who raised an Argentinian flag on South Georgia in March '82. It wasn't until 1st April that any military presence was made, & immediately the British task force arrived on 2nd May Argentina capitulated. Despite this Thatcher ordered HMS Conqueror to open fire on The Belgrano, sinking it. There's little argument that this murderous act of needless hostility saved Thatcher's hugely unpopular government & got her re-elected. Patriotism, especially when it's rabid & misplaced as in this instance, can cause people to assume a mob mentality of the lowest possible denominator. If you remember that's exactly what happened.

Sources
House of Commons Minutes [http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1982/apr/03/falkland-islands] During which Thatcher admits acting unilaterally, without cabinet consultation & despite MoD & Whitehall advice.
Dalyell's statement [http://belgranoinquiry.com/?page_id=700] re. Thatcher lying about the peace proposal offered before the Belgrano was sunk.
Ponting's Official Statement at the Belgrano Inquiry '86 [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXHsLleeg6I&feature=related] (sound file) asserts illegality of Thatcher's actions.
Dalyell's evidence at the Belgrano Inquiry [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmCIOA6wpt8&feature=related] re. Thatcher lying about the peace proposal & the resulting cover-up.
Ponting on 'The Crown Jewels' [http://belgranoinquiry.com/?page_id=705] (audio-transcript available).

 

[A big red rooster]

Have heard of her, yet I don't know nearly enough about what she did in office.

 

[googleboy]

I of course know who the Iron Lady was, its hard to imagine than any American wouldn't know given how close she was with our President of the same era.

I am a firm believer that you can only judge what you know, so I can only judge her foreign policy (as domestic relies on local culture/stereotypes etc). As a world leader, she reminded the world that the United Kingdom was a proud nation and not to be trifled with. She dealt fairly with friends and enemies abroad. Not knowing what she did inside of the UK, I would say she seemed alright.

With that said, I was shocked at how closely Ms Streep was able to mimic her! Very impressed.

 

[EradiusLore]

thatcher fucked up a lot of stuff but at least britain was still britain, im not sure what it is now after so many years of new labour, we need someone like thatcher back in power, at least to sort out the cultural problems faced by the nation, as for the falklands we werent the agressors, blame argentina

 

[ma99us]

In Russia she was very well known and mostly refereed as Iron Lady. She was seen as very strong and fearless politician and was refereed with respect. She was not considered as negative figure but rather worthy opponent.

 

[Blitzwarp]

Wow, patently ridiculous. At the opening of hostilities the "fleet" to which you refer consisted of 1 ship which was closer to a survey vessel than a warship, and the event to which you refer does not exist. Also, the wikipedia article which you so quickly deride is quite well cited. You, not so much.

The 'survey vessel' you refer to was a nuclear submarine [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Conqueror_%28S48%29]. Hardly a survey vessel. Oh, and the event to which I refer was the sinking of the fucking Belgrano [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_General_Belgrano#Sinking_of_ARA_Belgrano], which was mentioned in the Wikipedia article right here [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War#Sinking_of_ARA_General_Belgrano].

Sorry but can we have a source on that as the main problem with invasion of the falklands for the uk was that we did not have any navy ships anywhere near the islands after the HMS Endurance was withdrawn from the area.

Certainly. The ship was called the Belgrano [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_General_Belgrano#Sinking_of_ARA_Belgrano] (I don't know why I thought it was a civilian vessel, my mistake - there were civilians on board, but only 2 of them were killed; the remaining 321 casualties were military), and it was sunk by the British nuclear submarine Conqueror despite the fact that it was retreating from and actually outside of the Total Exclusion Zone. So Thatcher sank it even though it did not pose a threat (and this was heavily criticised later despite the fact that the victory in the Falklands effectively sealed a Conservative re-election), making Britain the first to fire a shot, ergo we technically started the war over the Falklands.

Galteri was probably half-pleased, half-shitting-himself over this, as he wanted his own invasion to appear as peaceful as possible to the U.N. (who probably cared more about the loss of natural resources rather than the loss of Argentinian civilian life, but that's my own cynicism seeping in, not historical fact) and because he honestly didn't think the British would dare invade thanks to, as you said, Thatcher's plans to downsize our Navy.

EDIT: This fabulous post [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.263473-A-question-for-non-British-people?page=10#9981567] explains it better than I ever could.

 

[AudienceOfOne1]

Don't you think calling her heartless is a bit redundant? When entering the political arena you should expect to have to make tough decisions and as a leader she did. My grandparents hate her and in fact Conservatives in general, but she and her part get a lot of unwarranted shit flung their way.

When John Major left offict Britain was well in the black. She left Major with a booming economy in the 90's and he kept it that way.

I'm sorry but sometimes people in positions of power have to make tough decisions. That's what they're there for. David Cameron is taking it on the chin right now; responses over unpopular policies and reforms; well guess what: sometimes they just have to be done.

Maggie Thatcher pulled out economy up from a low point and employment took the fall for it. It might just happen again. I sincerely hope this is more of a tribute to her legacy and not an excuse to poke relentlessly at the Milk Snatcher.

This.

 

[maninahat]

Speaking of the Falklands war, I always thought the conflict was interesting for one reason: The Argentine air force had exocet missiles that could really mess up a ship if it hit, but it had to be fired from within line of sight as opposed to over the horizon, and since the Argentines needed to avoid British radar before launching, they'd have to fly very close to the water before they launch, taking the British by surprise. HOWEVER, the Brits would then send Harrier jets back at the Argentines, which, being subsonic, the Argentines could outrun if they used their afterburners. The problem being, the British ships were parked so far off shore that if the Argentines used their afterburners, they wouldn't have enough fuel to make it home.

Moral of the story: The British could have absolutely trounced the Argentine air force if they'd just had two or three AWAKS to watch for the Argentine jets before they got within line of sight of a Royal Navy ship. The Argentine air force could have absolutely trounced the Royal Navy if they'd just had two or three mid-air refueling planes to get their jets home after running away.

The Argentinians would have trounced the British if they didn't run away full stop. Though British technology and aircraft were much more advanced, the Argentinian airforce outnumbered the British Harrier group 5 to 1 (and the harriers knew it).

 

[Blitzwarp]

Don't you think calling her heartless is a bit redundant? When entering the political arena you should expect to have to make tough decisions and as a leader she did. My grandparents hate her and in fact Conservatives in general, but she and her part get a lot of unwarranted shit flung their way.

When John Major left offict Britain was well in the black. She left Major with a booming economy in the 90's and he kept it that way.

I'm sorry but sometimes people in positions of power have to make tough decisions. That's what they're there for. David Cameron is taking it on the chin right now; responses over unpopular policies and reforms; well guess what: sometimes they just have to be done.

Maggie Thatcher pulled out economy up from a low point and employment took the fall for it. It might just happen again. I sincerely hope this is more of a tribute to her legacy and not an excuse to poke relentlessly at the Milk Snatcher.

The problem is that both Margaret Thatcher and David Cameron are making decisions that are only really hard on one sector of society: the poor. And because they know that the majority of Conservative voters are white upper-middle and upper-class individuals, they don't care. Most of the Tory party equate being poor with not being able to afford the road tax on one of their Rolls Royces, instead of, you know, not having anywhere to live or anything to eat. The day the Tory party do something good for the working class is the day Satan has to break out the ice skates. In the mean time, Cameron is slowly but surely moving us towards another double-dip recession, during which the City Types can take advantage of slumping house prices to make even more money, just as they did in the mid-eighties to mid-nineties. :/

Also, Maggie didn't have nerves of steel so much as rampant megalomania. Towards the middle-to-end of her reign, she even referred to herself as the royal "we", which caused a lot of embarrassment for the Tory party.

 

[Elburzito]

In Britain one of our main parties would be viewed as Socialist by most Americans, not forgetting the NHS which is an entirely Socialist idea. So why does everyone else hate, or why are you scared of Socialism?

I was born just after the Socialists/Communists were pushed (not kicked) out of office. It was a horrible time. Socialist policies bankrupted the country and did little good in return (Many Socialists here boast that they got rid of the slums. They forget to mention that most people weren't relocated after). They ruined the police force (My grandfather was the assistant commissioner at the time. Crime was at an all time high but police couldn't do anything because they couldn't arrest Socialists. On the other hand, the Special forces burnt down buildings, killed innocent Conservatives and Nationalists and created fear under Mintoff's command). The educational system was ruined because almost every subject was altered badly. The country became almost completely Dependant on Libyan and British Labour Party support. The Socialists also ruined some of the most beautiful areas on the island with their ugly Communist-style buildings. They destroyed tourism (the country's main source of income) and unsuccessfully replaced it with manufacturing, even though we couldn't keep up with international demands. The list just goes ON and ON. We are STILL paying off debts from that period.

The Socialist's here started out with good, although hypocritical, intentions. They then warped those intentions and created a horrible regime. What happened? The Socialists NEVER got punished for their actions, but got called out by some corrupt centre-rightists who claimed legitimacy by stating to have some minor connections with the former Conservative/Fascist party. The former Socialist leader, Mintoff, still has too much influence in parliament, at 94 years of age.

That's why I hate Socialists.

 

[Sleekgiant]

This is precisely why everybody calls Americans stupid and ignorant. You're not even making an effort.

Basically, saying this is like saying "No, I don't know who Jimmy Carter was, and I don't give a toss."

I don't really think it shows Americans as being ignorant, its just I'm not a walking encyclopedia. So sorry I don't keep up with British politics.

 

[Lionsfan]

Never heard of this lady before. In response to your edit: You can debate the pro's and con's of Socialism/Communism/Capitalism/Facism/etc etc all day. Most people here don't like it because they think it's gonna lead to no freedoms whatsoever with the Government being a cold cruel one. Don't forget, the people in charge of the media and the people who are always the loudest are the old people who grew up when the US was staring down the USSR with both sides having Nuclear Weapons out the wazoo. They grew up scared of and hating the "Dirty Commies"

 

[PinochetIsMyBro]

(I <3 Simon Darby and Griffin)

I have few things I hate, facists are one. They have nothing to do with British politics and a lot to do with keeping our age old tradition of xenophobia alive, thankfully the BNP have now gone bankrupt, that's right, they couldn't keep a party of 40 racists going, if they were in charge of the country we'd long be fallen to dust.

I think you need to research the British National Party a hell of a lot before you say that they have anything to do with British politics. They're evil.

To be blunt, you're the one needing to do research on the BNP if you think they're fascist. You clearly have no idea what the word means, and are using it like most people - the political equivalent of calling someone you don't like a 'poohead.'

Also calling them evil? I have no words for such stupidity.

 

[Kallesh]

I'm British, and half my family are One-Nation conservatives, the other are modern liberals; personally I think holding any single political ideology is Stubborn and close minded.

I think that on Argentina, Thatcher was right, they were a dictatorship, who wanted to conquer the islands to prop up support for their regime and displace the British population who have lived there for hundreds of years.

On Union reform I think it was right, the Unions held the country to ransom, she came in following the winter of discontent in 1979, where frozen corpses lay on the sides of the streets because grave diggers wewre striking, electricity used to cut out in the evenings, and the government was forced to pay for useless crap like coal which was not economically efficient to mine anymore.

However Poll tax was undoubtedly wrong, and she put too much empohasis on cultivating the financial sector of the city, replacing the old men in bowler hats with modern banking; and utterly neglected to support large scale infustry in the North and scotland.

Not only did this damage the UK as a whole, it made tories into hate figures,a stereotype which they still haven't shaken off.
Most Northeners and Scottish people seem to think of Tories as hard line Monetarists, who hate the EU, believe we should still have an Empire, who seek a capitalist Plutocracy where money rules.
However Old conservativism, One-Nationism was about reconciling the differences between the classes and creating a united undivided country without a social dialectic, the polar opposite of what both New Right Tories like Thatcher and Reagan , and New Socialism leaders like Blair and Deng Xiaopeng stand for, which is a divided plutocratic society.






http://isthatcherdeadyet.co.uk/

 

[B Goy]

I'm going to that guy who everyone is going to hate for saying this.

The thing about Thatcher is that, contrary to the attempts by everyone to make you forget this, Thatcher was not a dictator who everyone hated during those days but was a democratically elected leader who did the policies that were in her manifesto that gained her three election victories (two with majorities over 100) with a consistent voting base of over 40% of the nation and over 12 million votes which was a great achievement for a three-party system that uses the First Past the Post electoral system.

Another thing is that we sort of make it our aim to have Thatcher be someone that she wasn't. Some will call her a great defender of British sovereignty when she signed the Single European Act and others call her The Mine Closer when Harold Wilson and James Callaghan had closed down more mines then she did. She was a product of the era when trade unions could, and would, go on strike for someone being fired for sleeping on the job and the trade union leaders that she faced were more then happy to advocate ignoring the giant electoral victories she gained and tried to overthrow her and she was more then happy to fight.

Another myth is that Falklands was the only thing that kept her from losing 1983. While she was unpopular, her Opposition's manifesto was, to quote one of the people who wrote it 'The longest suicide note in history' and the other alternative was something that people say they would vote for, but don't really commit to it. She would have had a far smaller majority, but not lose the election.

Were all of her decisions good? No. Were all of her decisions bad? No. Did she lose the plot in the end and ignored her cabinet to the point of rebellion at the end? Yes. Did she have an electoral mandate for her policies that even made the Labour Party change so that it would maintain the principles of her policies? Yes.

Is the blind Thatcher hate a bit silly? Yes and I will now be mauled by said people.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Recently, shooting began on a film about Margaret Thatcher starring Meryl Streep as the 'Iron Lady' (if you're interested, Iron Lady is the name of the film). Since Thatcher is now knocking on deaths door I'm guessing that the film is going to be more of a homage than a insult, but Thatcher was truly a woman without humanity or goodness, killing every ounce of community and industry in Britain and sending men out to a war which (in my opinion) could of been avoided.

So here's the question to all you non Brits, if you had heard of Thatcher before now, what was your opinion on her?

EDIT: If you are British express your anger for the ***** having a film made about her

Oh and a lot of people are talking about their reasoning for hating Thatcher, here's mine I was born 4 years after she left office, my family on my fathers side were both coal miners and industrial workers. When I go up North to see them it feels like something's been lost, it's just painful to see.

EDIT EDIT: This is getting a whole lot of views and comments, so as the Thatcher debate rages on, I'd like to ask the rest of the World (especially those of you writing from America) what's so bad about Socialism?

In Britain one of our main parties would be viewed as Socialist by most Americans, not forgetting the NHS which is an entirely Socialist idea. So why does everyone else hate, or why are you scared of Socialism?

While I don't like how she treated the Irish(they were political prisoners whether she wanted to realize that or not and it shouldn't have taken the death of Bobby Sands to realize this) or Argentinian people(the island doesn't belong to England, nor should it anymore than Hong Kong), but WOW. From the youtube video's I see of her, she really can defend herself against the Labor party! Here is what I'm talking about:


andthis one too...

 

[The Artificially Prolonged]

Not much love for her in the North of England, mining towns or Scotland. Alot of towns in those regions took big hits to their economies when industries starting being shut down causing alot unemployment and generating alot of of ill will towards Thatcher and the Conservative party in general down to this day.

I was walking to work yesterday, when I saw a bus with a banner advertising the movie. Someone had dented the poster so it looked like Lady Thatcher had a bullet in the head, which made be laugh and quite nicely sums up the sentiment of alot of Brits have to Thatcher.