A question for Star Wars fans.
- Thread starter DanDeFool
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It generates anger for the same reason that the issue of "The Flash" featuring an imp caused anger- but sort of in reverse. Midichlorians try to introduce science to a previously magical world, just like that issue introduced magic into something based in a scientific basis.
Its not that its a bad plot device. Its just that its not what the series has been traditionally based in.
Its not that its a bad plot device. Its just that its not what the series has been traditionally based in.
Midi-chlorians were written about long before Episode 1, introduced as simply a thing that indicates a Force-sensitive being, nothing more. Thus, especially from within the myth I see no reason to hate them. The fact that Anakin has lots of midi-chlorians does not mean that he suddenly doesn't need any training, that he's automatically a good Jedi, nothing of that. Heck, he was a horrible Jedi even though he had the highest midi-chlorian count ever. That shows just how important the personal road of self-discovery is Susan talked about to make a good Jedi, and why I think midi-chlorians don't take anything away from the mythical part of the Jedi Order.Captain Blackout said:
As for the writing, again, midi-chlorians were just used as an indication that Anakin could be very powerful. And he ended up béing powerful, just not a Jedi. The only thing midi-chlorians simplify is that they make it a bit easier to confirm that someone is Force-sensitive. You still have to spot them first, thén confirm by doing a midi-chlorian count. You can't go around stabbing random people with a meter, hoping to encounter a Force-sensitive person.
I'm still not seeing the big problem with midi-chlorians, they're just an extension of the already existing concept of Force-sensitivity.
I think the midi-chlorians are just symbolic of What Went Wrong with the Phatom Menace, much like Jar Jar himself. It's too hard to explain the plot holes, mischaracterizations, logical fallacies, terrible dialogue, etc. in a reasonable time frame. If Jar Jar represents the kid level of silliness fans revile, midichlorians represent the adult silliness fans revile. We didn't want meaningless exposition, dammit!
Sure thing [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Midi-chlorian#Origins], Episode 1 was just their first public appearance and acted as an explanation why some were Force-sensitive and others were not. As I said, just an extension of the concept of Force-sensitivity. In Episode 1 they're also used for some metaphor about symbiotic relationship and all that philosophical jazz, but factually they're nothing more than Force-sensitivity-indicators.Captain Blackout said:
I just got back from doing the research myself and had found the same reference. Here's my problem with it: There's no actual proof, it's all according to Lucas. He told it to a staff member who isn't listed as having a page in the wiki. For the rest of us the only other mention of them isn't until episode 1. Furthermore, I know for a fact that Lucas is a lying bastard. Case in point: In the interview someone else posted with John Stewart, Lucas says he didn't expect the different generational reaction to Eps 4-6 and Eps 1-3. However, he said in an interview (I may have to take some time to research this if you want the source) prior to the release of Ep 1 that he was not going to try and please the fans of 4-6 because that was too hard to do (couldn't be bothered to admit his own limitations and invite Kasdan back) and was writing for children (really, a shakespearean level tragedy for kids??? Epic fail). He set the stage for the generational difference and he knows it.Cowabungaa said:
I appreciate where you're coming from. Lucas is(was) a brilliant idea man. However, he is a terrible writer and director. There's a reason why Empire Strikes Back is the best, from an objective standpoint. It's written and directed by Lawrence Kasdan.
Maybe George really did consider midi-chlorians in 1977. However, when he finally does anything at all with them, it is as a McGuffin, it is poor writing, it is a Drive-by franchise murder.
I agree with your points there, I realise what Lucas is, most of Anakin's dialogue in Episode 2 and 3 (the sand conversation...ugh) but I still don't see why one would attribute such a large roll to the midi-chlorians, because from my p.o.v they mean fairly little to the whole franchise, they don't actually do much besides being an indication for Force-sensitivity, and Qui-Gon uses midi-chlorians as a metaphor for philosophical stuff.Captain Blackout said:
So, care to explain why exactly midi-chlorians are a McGuffin? Why are they apparently so important that Lucas delivered a mortal blow to the franchise with them? I guess you're seeing something that I'm missing.
This seems a very good argument until you remember that Anakin 'the Chosen One' Skywalker doesn't have a father, and that it is even suggested in Episode I that the midi-chlorians took it upon themselves to impregnate Shmi. Which, in my view, gives these microorganisms a conscience and a common will that sets them well beyond being just markers for a Force-sensitive person.Cowabungaa said:
Like some of the previous posters, I don't like the midi-chlorian concept because it was used as a very cheap plot device.
Lucas needed something more than just 'I sense great potential in him'. He wanted a clear-cut, quantifiable measure of potential, and this is the best he could come up with.
As for the midi-chlorians being a 'drive-by franchise murder', as clever as that may sound, it's far from reality. The fact that we're discussing this today it's a clear indication that the franchise is alive and well. It will be alive as long as there is something with 'Star Wars' in its name in development.
Go watch this, it explains in detail why episode 1 was bad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxKtZmQgxrI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxKtZmQgxrI&feature=related
Drained mystery, input logic.
If we wanted everything expalined down to the tiniest screw, we'd watch Star Trek. Since we want action and mystery and we don't really care why things work just that they do so in an entertaining manner, we watch Star Wars.
Which also sums up the whole Star Trek vs Star Wars bit as well. Overly nerdy explanations vs explosions.
If we wanted everything expalined down to the tiniest screw, we'd watch Star Trek. Since we want action and mystery and we don't really care why things work just that they do so in an entertaining manner, we watch Star Wars.
Which also sums up the whole Star Trek vs Star Wars bit as well. Overly nerdy explanations vs explosions.
This and also it seems to indcate that there is a "cap" on how powerfull you can become.Furburt said:
Like the reason yoda was powerful wasn't because he had trained his mind and body over 900 years but that he had some crazy high lvl of a type of cell organelle.
The big thing I think was explained in a review I watched which basically pointed out that a good Jedi was supposed to be about the person, that if a Jedi tried hard enough and believed in yourself that they can do it, they'd be able to accomplish almost anything. The midichlorian thing just gives the idea that if you have lots, you'll be a good Jedi, if not, you won't. This kinda results in "Anakin is the best because he was born that way and you won't be as good as him no matter how you try because he was just born better than you" which kinda defeats the whole purpose of almost everything Yoda was teaching Luke.RebellionXXI said:
The Force is something you bond with, something you can get stronger to once you give yourself over. Midi-chlorians constricts this theory. In fact, it abolishes it. Now it's about how many of them you have in your body. Hard work does not get rewarded, only if you are lucky can you be really good.
It's dumb. It's really dumb.
It's dumb. It's really dumb.
I can't believe all these responses, specifically this one, from page one: "No matter what George Lucas does to damage the franchise, there are skilled writers who can fix it down the line." Did he not create this entire alternate universe? I understand the point you're trying to make, but it seems contradictory to say that one of the most successful film franchises of all-time is "damaged" by it's own creator, and then repaired by those following in the wake of his success.
As for all these people that say "it takes the magic out of it," keep in mind that the description given to Schmi (Anakin's mother, SP?) by Qui-Gon, which I assume is the topic of this debate, is a vague description given to an "ignorant slave." Lightning comes out of a dark-sensitive force users' fingers, not midichlorians. Midichlorians are simply a CONNECTION to the force. They don't create or define the force, only help their host to be aware of it. It is the will of the force-sensitive which actually affects the force.
And the Star Wars universe, despite it's many (theoretically) impossible technologies (faster than light travel, anti-gravity, etc.) is very much rooted in science. This is why certain sources explain how shield generators work while others have created entire stories about the companies that make the laser guns which are mounted on the ships that are never even seen in the movies... you get the idea. I think this is the reasoning for addressing midichlorians in the movie.
The term midichlorian is a clear reference, in my opinion, to mitochondria, the part of the human cell which supplies the cell's energy. Get it? Cellular power? Lucas was a great epic author but he wasn't very creative in his definition of ANYTHING. I use the terms Death Star (ooh nice name), Stormtroopers (a WWII reference), and X-Wing (a shape-named craft?) as examples. Hence, the inherent "weakness" of the explanation. (Lucas really wasn't that creative, and if you know a bit about the creation of Star Wars, you'll likely agree)
One more argument I'll shoot down: some said something about (I'm too lazy to quote everybody) it contradicting with the explanation's given by Yoda, Kenobi, and Solo. This is untrue. Qui-Gon is defining midichlorians, not the force.
So to offer my own answer to RebellionXXI's question "so why all the rage over the midi-chlorians?"
Because these enraged "fanboys" don't know what they're talking about. If they knew more about the force or midichlorians they wouldn't have their feathers ruffled by this explanation.
As for all these people that say "it takes the magic out of it," keep in mind that the description given to Schmi (Anakin's mother, SP?) by Qui-Gon, which I assume is the topic of this debate, is a vague description given to an "ignorant slave." Lightning comes out of a dark-sensitive force users' fingers, not midichlorians. Midichlorians are simply a CONNECTION to the force. They don't create or define the force, only help their host to be aware of it. It is the will of the force-sensitive which actually affects the force.
And the Star Wars universe, despite it's many (theoretically) impossible technologies (faster than light travel, anti-gravity, etc.) is very much rooted in science. This is why certain sources explain how shield generators work while others have created entire stories about the companies that make the laser guns which are mounted on the ships that are never even seen in the movies... you get the idea. I think this is the reasoning for addressing midichlorians in the movie.
The term midichlorian is a clear reference, in my opinion, to mitochondria, the part of the human cell which supplies the cell's energy. Get it? Cellular power? Lucas was a great epic author but he wasn't very creative in his definition of ANYTHING. I use the terms Death Star (ooh nice name), Stormtroopers (a WWII reference), and X-Wing (a shape-named craft?) as examples. Hence, the inherent "weakness" of the explanation. (Lucas really wasn't that creative, and if you know a bit about the creation of Star Wars, you'll likely agree)
One more argument I'll shoot down: some said something about (I'm too lazy to quote everybody) it contradicting with the explanation's given by Yoda, Kenobi, and Solo. This is untrue. Qui-Gon is defining midichlorians, not the force.
So to offer my own answer to RebellionXXI's question "so why all the rage over the midi-chlorians?"
Because these enraged "fanboys" don't know what they're talking about. If they knew more about the force or midichlorians they wouldn't have their feathers ruffled by this explanation.
Being a fan of Star Wars who has read the novels, comic books, played the video games, and participated in fan fiction roleplaying websites based on it, instead of "only" watching the movies, I'll try to give my honest opinion on the subject of midi-chlorians.
Though midi-chlorians to some degree hurt the mystical aspect of the force, Lucas has said before that the force itself is a supernatural force. Midi-chlorians sort of act as the medium of sorts between those who can use the force and the force itself. Something that force sensitives had to channel to some degree, even if they weren't aware of it, to touch the force and use it's powers.
To be honest, in my opinion, it probably helped the explanation of the Force and Star Wars to some degree to add the midi-chlorians in it. In the expanded universe of Star Wars before Episode I came out, the whole making the force completely mystical was leading the entire franchise into something like those Fantasy stories involving Witches and Sorcerers after the end of the orginal trilogy. Lot's of fans who were devoted to the franchise as a whole did not like that way it was going, making Star Wars look like something out of Lord of the Rings. They didn't completely like the whole Sith Magic, Witches of Dathomir, and Shaman's turning the force as something more along the lines of magic than something that's truely supernatural. No one wanted to see force users conjuring fire in their hands, or making a blizzard come out of nowhere in a desert planet like Tattoonie for pete's sake.
Giving the force some scientific explanation helped create boundaries concerning the force, allowing fans understand what can't and cannot be done with it's supernatual aspects. It helped to create some more depth into how the people in the Star Wars universe are able to connect to a supernatual presence they could not see like as if it were air, and not turn the Star Wars franchise as something that revolved around something that just could be also be called magic. Does it harm some of it's supernatural aspects, yes, but it helps to put a difference between the force itself and magic.
Also, as far as I'm concerned, the people were more probably more upset about Jar Jar Binks in Episode I than the midi-chlorians.
Though midi-chlorians to some degree hurt the mystical aspect of the force, Lucas has said before that the force itself is a supernatural force. Midi-chlorians sort of act as the medium of sorts between those who can use the force and the force itself. Something that force sensitives had to channel to some degree, even if they weren't aware of it, to touch the force and use it's powers.
To be honest, in my opinion, it probably helped the explanation of the Force and Star Wars to some degree to add the midi-chlorians in it. In the expanded universe of Star Wars before Episode I came out, the whole making the force completely mystical was leading the entire franchise into something like those Fantasy stories involving Witches and Sorcerers after the end of the orginal trilogy. Lot's of fans who were devoted to the franchise as a whole did not like that way it was going, making Star Wars look like something out of Lord of the Rings. They didn't completely like the whole Sith Magic, Witches of Dathomir, and Shaman's turning the force as something more along the lines of magic than something that's truely supernatural. No one wanted to see force users conjuring fire in their hands, or making a blizzard come out of nowhere in a desert planet like Tattoonie for pete's sake.
Giving the force some scientific explanation helped create boundaries concerning the force, allowing fans understand what can't and cannot be done with it's supernatual aspects. It helped to create some more depth into how the people in the Star Wars universe are able to connect to a supernatual presence they could not see like as if it were air, and not turn the Star Wars franchise as something that revolved around something that just could be also be called magic. Does it harm some of it's supernatural aspects, yes, but it helps to put a difference between the force itself and magic.
Also, as far as I'm concerned, the people were more probably more upset about Jar Jar Binks in Episode I than the midi-chlorians.
It was a one-liner fact that simply made a 'power level' meter for a single minute in just one of the movies. Just to point out that Anakin had greater potential than Yoda.
They destroyed and dismantled a lot of the magical, light-hearted, and mysterious aspect about it, just to do something that could have been left to, "I have never felt one so strong in The Force..."
That scene would have been immensely better if Qui-Gon gave the same speech Obi-Wan did to Luke, and most people, I think, would agree with me.
They destroyed and dismantled a lot of the magical, light-hearted, and mysterious aspect about it, just to do something that could have been left to, "I have never felt one so strong in The Force..."
That scene would have been immensely better if Qui-Gon gave the same speech Obi-Wan did to Luke, and most people, I think, would agree with me.
Watch the first half of the Eve Online episode of Zero Punctuation and replace "space" with "the force".