A question of value

[Curiosity's Cat]

Hi, I'm comparatively new to the forums and I thought I'd have a stab at creating my own thread. The question I pose to the superior brains of escapist users is this:

If you take the Atheist view that religion is based on a false supposition (that there is a god or realm beyond the spiritual one) as your starting point, is religion therefore without value?

STOP

before you answer that, note the following

I AM NOT AN ATHEIST, OR TRYING TO SUPPORT ATHEISM. This question is HYPOTHETICAL. If you are religious, I realise accepting the starting point requires an act of empathy. I don't mean to be condescending, I'm just worried that this might turn into an "Atheism v Faith" flame war and no-one would benefit from that.

I'm an agnostic that is interested in the value of religion as a human institution, in whether faith is good for the human psyche, things like that. Often I'll hear Atheists totally discount religion as an institution, blame all war on it, things like that. I think human spirituality can't be written of in a single stroke and I want to hear what you think.

Please be respectful, all viewpoints are valid.

 

[the_tramp]

I don't understand the question (I'm an atheist by the way). I believe that religion is false, therefore is religion without value? Well... no because organised religion is one of the most lucrative businesses ever invented, they're constantly taking in money.

 

[Curiosity's Cat]

Sorry I"ll re word that

 

[Flishiz]

Is it just me, or are religion/atheism threads running rampant on the Escapist lately? If it didn't provide so many responses, I'd say that's a bit of a break in the guidelines. Can't they be consolidated into "The most epic religion thread ever", and leave it at that?

 

[theklng]

depends on which context you take it in. is 0 a value? is null a value? in the binary world, everything has a value. out here? you define things by having value. because it is defined, it also has a value. things that are not defined do not have a value.

 

[Curiosity's Cat]

There are tonnes of different aspects to religion. I think if you made it all the one thread it would be pretty confusing. I have to say I did start this thread after answering another one on religion, but I didn't want to side track that one with irrelevance...

 

[Undeed]

Often I'll hear Atheists totally discount religion as an institution, blame all war on it, things like that.

War happens because people are different from each other. Yes, religion has factored into many wars, but so has politics, race, and geography. Those atheists are just the loud ones.

This is like asking "If you were never a member of any clubs in high school, did the clubs do anything interesting?" The answer will vary depending on each person's definition of value. One might come to the conclusion that since religion provides moral guidance for so many people there is value in the institution. Others might find that the charity work religious organizations do quite valuable. Still others will see these things as obvious and unnecessary acts, and mock any who helped. It depends on what the person you ask values. Some particulary loathsome fellows might see value in it as a 'personal fundraiser' of sorts, and value the donation plate. It's an immensly subjective question, depending on each indviduals values and reasoning.

 

[Curiosity's Cat]

depends on which context you take it in. is 0 a value? is null a value? in the binary world, everything has a value. out here? you define things by having value. because it is defined, it also has a value. things that are not defined do not have a value.

Define it however you like. To me, in this context, value means "of positive worth". I kinda meant it in an emotional, ethical or social way, but someone has already pointed out the religion has an immense dollar value, which is very true.

 

[S.H.A.R.P.]

I am not quite sure what I am, agnostic or atheist. But I don't think that religion is without value. Throughout the times (mostly medieval ages I reckon), religion has been an anchorage for millions of people on the bottom of the social ladder. It kept cohesion between the masses, and has been quite valuable for that. Also the quest for wisdom has progressed mankind in some ways.

Yet on the flip side, religion has caused millions of deaths through wars and persecutions. Also, in my humble opinion, religion has hampered mankind in the quest for knowledge. Holding stubbornly onto aged ideas.

Something that brings value, yet de-valuates at the same time, is hard to evaluate (sorry for the terminology). Does something like that equate to zero? Does evil deeds always tip the scale towards devaluation? Or does good outweigh evil?

Personally, I don't think religion has been worth it. But of course I may have forgotten something important here in the equation. Something that religion has contributed which has progressed mankind in ways otherwise unattainable. Any suggestions?

 

[Mr_spamamam]

it differs from person to person. i feel religion has value, it can inspire people to do wonderful things, look at Mother Teresa, or Ghandi, where as misapropriation or misinterptitation of religion can lead to horrific acts such as the Spanish Inqusition or the Jonestown massacare.

i think the real question here should be not whether religion is good or bad but are people good or bad, because any organisation is only as good as the participants

 

[SmilingKitsune]

This is well worded thread (and this is not sarcasm by the way).
I'm agnostic myself, I'm pretty sure there's something there, I'm just damned if I know what it is. I think religion gives people a sense of belonging, it makes you part of something larger and that's comforting to people, of course a lot of people use religion as a means to avoid figuring things out for themselves which I think is bad for the human psyche.
So yes religion has it's value, and can be a very beautiful thing, and it can also have negative effects when it's used as a "head in the sand" solution to problems.

 

[traceur_]

It's not without value, it helps people deal with their problems, helps them to be good people and gives them a sense of purpose. All very good things, no one can disagree, though I think it may have been better if people learned to do that from the beginning without the influence of religion but that's my opinion. It's true that bad things have been caused by religion but that is true for pretty much everything.

 

[Undeed]

Religion is inherently untrue and based off of heresay.

The balls of it is that, although it's stupid, it is extremely potent because, due to the nature of it's conception, it satisfies human nature totally and therefore is one of the easiest things on earth to devote oneself to. Interestingly, because of it's nature as a totally illogical institution, it's also one of the easiest things to align yourself against. Therein lies the rub; the power of religion lies in it's status as a polarizing influence.

As sickening as it is, this world is shaped and driven by religion.

urprobalyright despairs

The polarizing agent is any difference in humanity. People seperathe themselves from each other for any number of reasons: religion, geography, race, income, political ideals, education, personal values, etc. You can rally aginst how illogical the institution is, but may great men have been religious, and there has never been a U.S. president that wasn't. Maybe I'm being a bit excessive in this response, but it seems like you didn't comment on thee discussion, you just attacked religion.

 

[The Infamous Scamola]

I think religion has at least some kind of cultural value but that's about it.

 

[li-ion]

If you take the Atheist view that religion is based on a false supposition (that there is a god or realm beyond the spiritual one) as your starting point, is religion therefore without value?

Good question.

You could argue that practicing a religion costs a considerable amount of effort (i.e. praying, going to church... following whatever rules your religion has) and people would be stupid to pursue this if they wouldn't get some form of payoff. This payoff can come in many forms. It can be emotional, like the feeling of purpose, the feeling of belonging to a group, the feeling that random atrocities are not just random but follow some greater plan. It can be social, like the idea that there are people of similar worldview that will help you out in time of need. In ancient times gods were often a explanation for things that were unexplainable at that time. Lightning is the hand of Zeus for example. Today there is no need for religion as form of explanation, since science provides insight in this. Ok, there are those who truly believe that the earth is 20.000 years old or that celestial monkeys built bridges to connect islands, but that's anachronism in my eyes. What remains are emotional and social ties for a lot of people.
In my view the question if religion is of value is entirely subjective. Do you need religion to give you comfort or purpose? Do you like to go to church to be in a social group? Do you believe that your holy book explains things better than modern science? If you can answer any or all of these questions with yes, then religion is of value for you. If you find social ties somewhere else, think science is a better way of explaining things than holy books and if you don't need the believe in some higher being to give you comfort, then religion has no value for you.

All IMHO, IIRC and AFAIK.

 

[Tich]

We discuss religions on a gaming forum because one a normal religion forum they discuss gaming.

The alue of religion is measured by the person who sees it. In that regard, I will ignore this topic unless you want someone to tell you things you will be offended by.