A Question to the Forums: WTF is "Toxic Masculinity"?

Izanagi009_v1legacy

Anime Nerds Unite
Apr 25, 2013
1,460
0
0
I have heard this term twice: once from the "dreaded" Sarkesian and now from Moviebob's review of "Foxcatcher"

sadly, I don't have a full grasp of it's definition and can only define it in the broad terms as follows: masculine traits taken to far extremes in an attempt to exert power but end up causing individuals to self destruct.

As such, I would like to hear what the people on the Escapist forums think about "Toxic Masculinity" is and what it's possible side effects are for society.
 

Generalissimo

Your Commander-in-Chief
Legacy
Jun 15, 2011
831
0
21
Country
UK
My actual opinion on this is far too vitriolic for this forum, so i'll say this: It's a slightly misguided idea promoted mostly by feminists stating (I think) that men can't have emotions because of...something.

bitter? moi?
 

CitizenM

New member
Oct 16, 2014
30
0
0
It's just a buzz phrase for popular culture, meant to communicate the ways the excessive patriarchal society of North America harms men. The easiest example is when men will avoid thinking, talking, acting or dressing in certain "ways" because our culture has collectively deemed those "ways" are unmanly, feminine, gay, black, snobbish, intellectual, etc.

Basically, if you are an American male you cannot be smart, cannot use big words, you cannot dress in anything other than plaid, must adore NFL, must drink beer, must be a frat boy womanizer, idolize male behaviour of the 1960's to 1970's, vote right wing, be a straight white male christian, all while yelling your jingoism for how star-spangled awesome America is. Anything less means you're not a man. That's toxic masculinity.
 

BloatedGuppy

New member
Feb 3, 2010
9,572
0
0
CitizenM said:
Basically, if you are an American male you cannot be smart, cannot use big words, you cannot dress in anything other than plaid, must adore NFL, must drink beer, must be a frat boy womanizer, idolize male behaviour of the 1960's to 1970's, vote right wing, be a straight white male christian, all while yelling your jingoism for how star-spangled awesome America is. Anything less means you're not a man. That's toxic masculinity.
This is fairly accurate. Taken a step further, it could be interpreted as the idolatry of traditionally "masculine" values such as aggression and dominance, and the ripple out consequences that has for society as a whole.
 

Muspelheim

New member
Apr 7, 2011
2,023
0
0
Suffocating, limiting masculinity, the type that boils down a bloke into an insufferable stereotype. When the idea of manhood is used against you, to limit you into a safe little caricature.

It is the negative parts of the gender spectrum that harms lads. I think comparing it to poison is an apt description, since it's a lot more subversive than ordinary gender suppression. It injures you, but slowly, until you feel like shite and have no idea why. That is toxic masculinity.

Watching football or knocking down a wall aren't toxic, unless that is the only thing you'd be comfortable doing, and the idea of someone not liking either makes you uncomfortable. Sort of. Esque.

(Of course, that is a general "you", not as in you, the OP. Just in case. The English language is like an unfortunate misunderstanding factory.)
 

Hoplon

Jabbering Fool
Mar 31, 2010
1,840
0
0
Generalissimo said:
My actual opinion on this is far too vitriolic for this forum, so i'll say this: It's a slightly misguided idea promoted mostly by feminists stating (I think) that men can't have emotions because of...something.

bitter? moi?
It's about men being told that this box here is being a man and anything else is wrong and bad, usually by other men, Even if they are hurt by trying to fit in to that box. hence toxic.

It's really not anything to do with feminists at all. so bitter? a little bit.
 

Drephon

New member
Jul 9, 2012
3
0
0
Basically, if you are an American male you cannot be smart, cannot use big words, you cannot dress in anything other than plaid, must adore NFL, must drink beer, must be a frat boy womanizer, idolize male behaviour of the 1960's to 1970's, vote right wing, be a straight white male christian, all while yelling your jingoism for how star-spangled awesome America is. Anything less means you're not a man. That's toxic masculinity.
I'm a Lurker. It's what I do, but this post is so far off I feel the need to respond.

I had a whole giant post written and rewritten, but suffice to say it can be summed up as this. BS. I might have a differing opinion, but as an American Male I have never seen, heard of, or thought the above being standard male behavior.

There are unfortunate double standards where men can't say or do certain things, because they are considered unmanly, but the above is a poor representation of what that would be, at least in the area I live. Much of what is written above is mocked, derided, and considered far outside the norm.

Sorry if my post is overly aggressive, but I'm constantly being overstereotyped at wok as the token millennial and this struck a little close to home. Apologies to anyone if I offended you in anyway with my post.
 

carnex

Senior Member
Jan 9, 2008
828
0
21
Ask a thousand people you will get thousands answers,

But in a nutshell it's an idea that traditional male traits like tight focus, aggression, plowing through obstacles (living or not), hiding feelings, competitiveness, thirst for dominance etc are bad (or at least bad in males) and is sold as an constraint within which every male must fall into or fail in current society. Needles to say, it's total BS in my opinion since I don't fit in most of those categories and I'm just fine.
 

Muspelheim

New member
Apr 7, 2011
2,023
0
0
Oh, and on a similar note;

The idea that men shouldn't cry or be overly emotional tend to presented as a sort-of biological fact; that is what blokes are like. They shouldn't be crying or be emotional when there are mammoths to slay.

Thing is, that is a cultural expectation. Not a biological behaviour. Ask any proper man in the Baroque era. If you can't squeeze out a few tears or a joyous laugh when the situation demands it, you are not even trying, you are an emotionless, withered husk of a man that can't be trusted with running a bath.

Cultural expectations change. They are not bad in and of themselves. But they should not be a choking influence making you do stupid shit you don't particularly want to do.
 

DementedSheep

New member
Jan 8, 2010
2,654
0
0
Generalissimo said:
My actual opinion on this is far too vitriolic for this forum, so i'll say this: It's a slightly misguided idea promoted mostly by feminists stating (I think) that men can't have emotions because of...something.

bitter? moi?
What? I've never seen it used even remotely like that. If anything it's the opposite. It's the idea that some traits considered "masculine" are harmful, at least when taken to the extreme end. Not being able to express emotions for fear of being labelled unmasculine is one of attitudes that is often criticized as "toxic masculinity". It's not feminist saying men can't have emotions. It's criticising the expectation that they shouldn't.
 

Dizchu

...brutal
Sep 23, 2014
1,277
0
0
While I don't doubt that the term has a legit origin, it's used these days as a boogeyman. Often when it is used, there's a subtle (or even unsubtle) hint of misandry or resentment of men. This is exacerbated by ideas such as "male privilege", which is so ambiguous that it has no meaning in a broad sense.

Personally I believe toxic masculinity does exist though instead of that term I use "patriarchy" or "androcentrism" (cultural perceptions that view men as people that "do" and women as people that "are"). What I find interesting is that there's no concept of "toxic femininity" (because personally I think the biases and extremes of both binary genders feed into sexism).

Whenever you hear the term, take it with a grain of salt. People have always wanted a singular entity to blame for bad things that happen (Satan, patriarchy, feminism, Islam, etc.) and I think going after a large group that are often seen as "privileged" (men, whites, heterosexuals, cisgenders) fuels a culture of opposition and hostility rather than combats it.

FUN BONUS:
Does anyone feel that Breaking Bad is about "toxic masculinity"? Think about it, the premise of the entire series is that a man feels pressured into providing for his family and not needing handouts from others to do it.
 

BloatedGuppy

New member
Feb 3, 2010
9,572
0
0
DizzyChuggernaut said:
What I find interesting is that there's no concept of "toxic femininity" (because personally I think the biases and extremes of both binary genders feed into sexism).
Women have been pushing back against "toxic" and limiting concepts of femininity for a long time now. Exploding traditional gender roles was...was it second wave feminism? I can never keep them sorted. There's less impetus to doing so with traditionally "male" virtues because being aggressive/combative/domineering etc can be viewed as actively beneficial in today's power structures.

DizzyChuggernaut said:
Does anyone feel that Breaking Bad is about "toxic masculinity"? Think about it, the premise of the entire series is that a man feels pressured into providing for his family and not needing handouts from others to do it.
Yes and no. Walter didn't feel pressured to "provide for his family", that was the lie he told himself to justify what he was doing. Walter felt a need to validate his genius and get the due he felt the world owed him after his pride and bitterness divorced him from what should have been his legacy (Grey Matter). What Breaking Bad is ultimately about is how the right set of alchemical conditions can trigger anyone's monster. In this particular case, the man Walter becomes could be seen as an example of "toxic masculinity" in terms of his competitiveness and aggressiveness, but his vicious, feral ego is pretty asexual, and that's at the heart of his issues.
 

Dizchu

...brutal
Sep 23, 2014
1,277
0
0
MarsAtlas said:
Because toxic femininity is self-harming and never affects others. An example of it would be "a woman is always faithful and subservient to their husband", which is often pressured even when that husband is incredibly controlling and abusive, and by keeping within this restraint of femininity, they're effectively committing self-harm as encouraged by society. Toxic femininity generally doesn't cause mass shootings ala Elliot Rodger, who pretty clearly harboured a resentment of women because he felt emasculated that they'd have a relationship with a guy who wasn't white over him even though he's such a nice guy.
I agree and disagree with what you say here. I think the "self-harming" nature of this hypothetical "toxic femininity" has a lot of effect on others. It reinforces outdated, traditional gender roles which in turn contributes to the pervasiveness of sexism. I do agree with your idea that the aspects of "traditional femininity" are more introverted while aspects of "traditional masculinity" are more extroverted, which causes the latter to have a more apparent effect on society and the former to have a more subtle one. That's why it won't result in mass shootings.

Elliot Rodger is a great example when it comes to talking about toxic masculinity. He was influenced by a very skewed perception of what society "values in a man", which rather than being completely deluded was just an exaggeration of what society really does value in men. His manifesto indicated a lot of internal struggles related to this and his videos displayed a kind of attitude I can only describe as "MRA turned to 11".
 

Dizchu

...brutal
Sep 23, 2014
1,277
0
0
BloatedGuppy said:
Women have been pushing back against "toxic" and limiting concepts of femininity for a long time now. Exploding traditional gender roles was...was it second wave feminism? I can never keep them sorted. There's less impetus to doing so with traditionally "male" virtues because being aggressive/combative/domineering etc can be viewed as actively beneficial in today's power structures.
Solid points, I agree completely. I do however believe that women contribute to the elevation of the "virtues" that are seen as beneficial for men to exhibit. Of course, not ALL women but it's the kind of thing MRAs talk about when they're not complaining about the inability to get laid.

and no. Walter didn't feel pressured to "provide for his family", that was the lie he told himself to justify what he was doing. Walter felt a need to validate his genius and get the due he felt the world owed him after his pride and bitterness divorced him from what should have been his legacy (Grey Matter). What Breaking Bad is ultimately about is how the right set of alchemical conditions can trigger anyone's monster. In this particular case, the man Walter becomes could be seen as an example of "toxic masculinity" in terms of his competitiveness and aggressiveness, but his vicious, feral ego is pretty asexual, and that's at the heart of his issues.
Right, I actually see parallels between Walter White and Elliot Rodger in this regard. They were pressured into doing these things because of their deluded, ego-driven perceptions of what society values in men. Gus Fring mentions this a few times (I believe "a man provides for his family" was something he insisted on?), and beyond that there's the continuous theme that Walt should be "the head of the family" and that his idea of how essential he is for his loved ones' wellbeing is grossly exaggerated by his hubris. I believe Elliot Rodger wanted to exterminate men to "get rid of the competition", resulting in him having a greater sense of purpose.

It's an interesting angle to look at things with. I do believe though that Walter White could not have been a female character, just because the pressures traditional gender roles place on women are different.