A Question to the Forums: WTF is "Toxic Masculinity"?

[Thaluikhain]

I agree, the male only draft is outdated. My point is about it's origins: not in women hatred, but acutally pretty much the opposite. Female lifes were, and still are, considered more valuable.

Up until very recently, openly LGBT have been allowed to serve in the US military. This is still the case for the last of those letters. This is not because their lives were seen as more valuable.

Men have suffered tremendously in all of human history because they are for the most part the ones who have to fight the wars, yet nowadays some people try to spin it around and portray it as if it was some kind of privilege, in complete and utter disdain for the ones who were forced to go to the front line to die and not to ask questions.

For many years, it was treated as a great and honourable thing to fight. It's more dangerous to be a race care driver than a garbage truck driver, but it's still the one many more people aspire to be.

That pisses me the f**k off! Women complaining how the evil misoginist patriarcy is denying them the right to serve in the military.

Women are, in many places, denied the right to serve in the military, and generally have their roles severely limited if they are. It is not surprising if people complain about that, especially in nations with purely voluntary militaries anyway.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

Well, this is one of those things where there's the cynical answer and the textbook answer.

Textbook answer: Toxic Masculinity is when the idea of "you need to do this to be a man" leads to bad behavior from people in an effort to seem masculine to others and seem like a "real man".

Cynical answer: Toxic Masculinity is an internet buzz-phrase utilized by men who don't possess stereotypically masculine qualities to try and insult men who do possess them, brought about by feelings of inferiority or jealousy on the part of the wussy men.

Like so many things, the answer is up for interpretation.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

I agree, the male only draft is outdated. My point is about it's origins: not in women hatred, but acutally pretty much the opposite. Female lifes were, and still are, considered more valuable. Why else would you hear, whenever some tragedy happens "60 innocent people were killed in the attack, women and children amongst them", as if it is worse because it also happened to women, and not only to men.

Men have suffered tremendously in all of human history because they are for the most part the ones who have to fight the wars, yet nowadays some people try to spin it around and portray it as if it was some kind of privilege, in complete and utter disdain for the ones who were forced to go to the front line to die and not to ask questions.

That pisses me the f**k off! Women complaining how the evil misoginist patriarcy is denying them the right to serve in the military. The guys at Verdun would probably have been happy if they could have gone home after giving away the right to vote!

I've seen plenty of people against women being in the military, and it never has to do with it keeping a reserve of polygamy ready women around for repopulation, or the notion of losing our supply of precious women. Complaints I do see around a lot are that the women won't be able to hold their own and the men will have to pick up the slack. Like having to carry the supplies they can't handle.

The privilege is being deemed capable enough to fight for your family or country if you desired to. The ability to aspire to more than just a baby incubator. Yes, it was beneficial to a lot of women to not be conscripted for war, but it was at the cost of respect beyond that a child would receive. Would you rather be treated like a child for your entire life just so you could be 'valued' like a woman was?

 

[Ihateregistering1]

Women are, in many places, denied the right to serve in the military, and generally have their roles severely limited if they are. It is not surprising if people complain about that, especially in nations with purely voluntary militaries anyway.

Not to get too much into semantics here, but serving in the Military is not a "right". The Military is allowed to deny people for reasons not 100% specified in policy (unlike, say, voting). Being in the Military is a job, you no more have an inherent right to be a Soldier than you do to be a postal worker.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Women are, in many places, denied the right to serve in the military, and generally have their roles severely limited if they are. It is not surprising if people complain about that, especially in nations with purely voluntary militaries anyway.

Not to get too much into semantics here, but serving in the Military is not a "right". The Military is allowed to deny people for reasons not 100% specified in policy (unlike, say, voting). Being in the Military is a job, you no more have an inherent right to be a Soldier than you do to be a postal worker.

You have a right not to be denied a job as a postal worker simply due to your gender, though.

 

[DeaDRabbiT]

I think it's when you work out too much and your nipples end up pointing in different directions - like the guy on Storage Wars the other night. Looked like he had cross-eyed tits.

This comment literally almost killed me.

I had a full drink of water in my mouth and I simultaneously spit it out and sucked it down my trachea.


PS: "Toxic Masculinity" is new SJW speak for the counter opposite of militant feminism, except one is bad and the other is not.

 

[one squirrel]

I agree, the male only draft is outdated. My point is about it's origins: not in women hatred, but acutally pretty much the opposite. Female lifes were, and still are, considered more valuable. Why else would you hear, whenever some tragedy happens "60 innocent people were killed in the attack, women and children amongst them", as if it is worse because it also happened to women, and not only to men.

Men have suffered tremendously in all of human history because they are for the most part the ones who have to fight the wars, yet nowadays some people try to spin it around and portray it as if it was some kind of privilege, in complete and utter disdain for the ones who were forced to go to the front line to die and not to ask questions.

That pisses me the f**k off! Women complaining how the evil misoginist patriarcy is denying them the right to serve in the military. The guys at Verdun would probably have been happy if they could have gone home after giving away the right to vote!

I've seen plenty of people against women being in the military, and it never has to do with it keeping a reserve of polygamy ready women around for repopulation, or the notion of losing our supply of precious women. Complaints I do see around a lot are that the women won't be able to hold their own and the men will have to pick up the slack. Like having to carry the supplies they can't handle.

The privilege is being deemed capable enough to fight for your family or country if you desired to. The ability to aspire to more than just a baby incubator. Yes, it was beneficial to a lot of women to not be conscripted for war, but it was at the cost of respect beyond that a child would receive. Would you rather be treated like a child for your entire life just so you could be 'valued' like a woman was?

Assuming that the two options that you presented are the only options available (I don't think that that is the case),I am not sure what I would choose. What would I give up if I had to pick between being shot at or losing some respect? It's easy to be brave and say i'd rather fight and die, than living with being a little less respected, when you don't actually have to put your money where your mouth is.

Besides, what do you gain for being "respected" when you have a bullet in your head, this is just cynical.

 

[Phasmal]

Probably concepts of masculinity that are harmful to yourself and others? Just a guess.

Or it could be an evil feminazi conspiracy. Could be that.

I dunno.

I don't know why anyone would be against pushing back against parts of something that is harmful, though.
Nothing wrong with people who are traditionally `masculine`, but I'm sure that no one should buy into it so much that they believe there couldn't possibly be anything negative about it, right? Equally, no-one should be forced to behave a certain way due to arbitrary crap like gender.

Like, I don't know, being upset that you lost to a girl so you have to go have a time out and brood and do manly things so you feel like a man again, that's not a good thing, is it?

 

[Piorn]

Maybe it's like female ferrets, who, if not mounted regularly, can't ovulate and die from estrogen poisoning?

My guess would be "toxic Masculinity" just describes "self-concious men". Nowadays you can be proud to be a woman, just like you can be proud to be black, but you can't be proud to be german unless you're talking about football.

 

[Illesdan]

Basically, if you are an American male you cannot be smart, cannot use big words, you cannot dress in anything other than plaid, must adore NFL, must drink beer, must be a frat boy womanizer, idolize male behaviour of the 1960's to 1970's, vote right wing, be a straight white male christian, all while yelling your jingoism for how star-spangled awesome America is. Anything less means you're not a man. That's toxic masculinity.

Pretty much this. Sadly, I know someone who is EXACTLY like this. He's the most opinionated, bigoted, homophobic guy I have ever met, and that's saying a lot, since I'm damned near 40. I've met everyone in his immediate family, and I've come to one, ultimate conclusion; he was adopted.

 

[geK0]

I'm sure testosterone is toxic in great enough doses.

 

[CitizenM]

This is fairly accurate. Taken a step further, it could be interpreted as the idolatry of traditionally "masculine" values such as aggression and dominance, and the ripple out consequences that has for society as a whole.

Very true. Many of the problems with our nations stem from our culture idolizing the worst aspects of human behaviour, deeming those behaviours the sole pervue of "men" and then rewarding abusers for it. It's no wonder most of our captains of industry are sociopaths when we have a population that is only too willing to reward strong, tough, badasses who "don't take no shit from anyone". Yeah, including all us taxpayers who are exploited by them

I'm a Lurker. It's what I do, but this post is so far off I feel the need to respond.

I had a whole giant post written and rewritten, but suffice to say it can be summed up as this. BS. I might have a differing opinion, but as an American Male I have never seen, heard of, or thought the above being standard male behavior.

There are unfortunate double standards where men can't say or do certain things, because they are considered unmanly, but the above is a poor representation of what that would be, at least in the area I live. Much of what is written above is mocked, derided, and considered far outside the norm.

Sorry if my post is overly aggressive, but I'm constantly being overstereotyped at wok as the token millennial and this struck a little close to home. Apologies to anyone if I offended you in anyway with my post.

What I wrote in that post is neither endorsing nor condeming toxic masculinity, merely describing what it is by definition. Whether or not you believe the definition has been institutionalized in society (which it has) or marginalized (which it has not) is beside the point. And just so you know, I don't believe a majority of us fit the steretype; the point is precisely that we DON'T. That's why it's toxic to us to live in a system that promotes and rewards that toxic behaviour.

Don't worry, you didn't offend me. Besides, I personally have a lot invested in millennials since you are the most friendly generation to people like me in the history of humanity. So stop lurking and post more!

Pretty much this. Sadly, I know someone who is EXACTLY like this. He's the most opinionated, bigoted, homophobic guy I have ever met, and that's saying a lot, since I'm damned near 40. I've met everyone in his immediate family, and I've come to one, ultimate conclusion; he was adopted.

They are out there. I was originally born and raised in a small northern town filled with such people. I was really happy when I moved away and found a much more moderate social reality. Btw, was that an "Avengers" reference?