A Request on Language

[Seldon2639]

Can we, for the love of my sanity, stop saying things are "Orwellian", or compare government action to "1984", when all we really mean is "I don't like this very much"?

Someone recently told me that the new per-mile gas tax seemed like something out of 1984, but that doesn't make any sense. I swear to you that Orwell never got his knickers in a twist about tax law. I know this sounds a little petulant, but it's really bothersome when Orwellian is used to describe any time the government does anything that someone doesn't agree with.

Gun control is another good example. People say it's Orwellian, when really they mean it's an abridgment of freedom. I'm not saying gun control is right or wrong, but let's not put every instance of "government intrusion" into the category of "Dystopian Orwellian Future". Same thing with nationalized healthcare. Hell, if anything, the current system is Orwellian since the people at the top (including those making the decisions) have great healthcare, while those at the bottom get screwed.

Things that would be Orwellian:

- Disinformation campaigns
- Brainwashing
- Society made ostensibly to benefit all, but which instead only benefits the few leaders
- Policing people's beliefs

Things that are not Orwellian:

- Taxes
- Gun Control
- Controlling School Curricula
- National Healthcare

I'm not meaning to flame, but I've been holding this rant in for a while. If you disagree with me, I'm all ears.

End of rant.

 

[Avatar Roku]

I made a thread like this a while ago just ranting about the difference between a hypothesis, theory, and law. It's good to release.

That's really all I can say about this thread, as I don't know much about Orwell. But consider this a free bump!

 

[Musicfreak]

I never use the term and honestly I don't know much about Orwell either.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

I'm usually the only person around who has read enough to know what "Orwellian" implies. If one of my friends used it in a sentence, no matter how inappropriately, I would likely jump for joy.

But I really can imagine how obnoxious that must be.

 

[Galletea]

It's something that annoys me too. People likening a situation to something they've heard of but probably know nothing about. They know it's bad, so they use it.

 

[Pseudonym2]

School criteria could be considered Orwellian because he mentioned brainwashing the children to turn in their parents in 1984. In fact school criteria is used accidentally or on purpose to control populations. I had to a history report on why the robber barons were actually leaders of industry. Read Lies My Teacher Told Me to have it explained by someone more coherent than I am.

Quick quiz: What Orwell's real name?

 

[Hunde Des Krieg]

Well controlling school curriculum is a tad close to dystopian whatever, depending on what you mean by control. Controlling what emphasis the education is on isn't so bad, changing history for thought control would be though.

 

[Citrus]

Whenever my friend brought up something related to human psychology, she would say, "That's really Flies."

As in, Lord of the Flies.

Most annoying thing ever, seriously.

 

[Johnnyallstar]

yeah, alot of people will throw labels onto things when they really have no idea what they are talking about.

it happens alot, sadly, I just wish people would learn more about the words they use before they label incorrectly.

Fun fact: Fascist is derived from the Latin word for the baton used by Roman soldiers, much like the modern day night-stick. A fascist is literally somebody who "rules by the stick".

 

[Jaga Jazzist]

Maybe we need an Orwell equivalent of Godwin's Law?

I actually see more references to Hemmingway around the place (IRL and Internet) than Orwell, which suprises me a lot.

(Fun aside: I was saying to someone at college "I used to live near to where Orwell wrote 1984" and he replied ":A Space Odyssey?" I had to sit down for a while because I was laughing so hard)

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

- Disinformation campaigns
- Brainwashing
- Society made ostensibly to benefit all, but which instead only benefits the few leaders
- Policing people's beliefs

Things that are not Orwellian:

- Taxes
- Gun Control
- Controlling School Curricula
- National Healthcare

Here's the problem I see with this part of your argument. While I agree with you in spirit, I find that your selection of things that ARE orwellian and that are NOT orwellian are surprisingly similar.

Disinfomrmation Campaigs and Taxes (or politics in general). Politics is built on disinformation, or, perhaps more accurately a complete lack of information.

Brainwashing - Controlling School Cirricula - these things are one in the same. Your world view is essentially founded on principles gleaned from your parents and your childhood education. Why do I think America is so great and Mexico sucks? Because I spent 12 years of my life learning a series of facts that back up that world view.

Society made ostensibly to benefit all, but which instead only benefits the few leaders/Taxes/Politics in general - once again, we run into the same problem - taxes are about the redistribution of the MEANS of power (money). Politics is nothing more than assigning the specific duties of power, and hopefuly so clouding the process that the average voter is no more important than a coin toss at the next election (it's easier to campaign for a few key districts than an entire nation afterall).

Policing people's beliefs/ Controlling School Cirricula - it's the same thing all over again. It's fairly hard to question a system or thought if you have no alternative to compare it to.

That said, I tend to frown on the use of alarmist language, and that's more or less what your complaint seems to be. But your categorical definition of the two seems to reveal far too much crossover in the two basic areas. No, I don't think that controlling ciriculum is as bad as thought police - but they certainly accomplish the same ends.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

Good god your name and avatar are simply supreme. I really had to say that.

Good to meet a fan!

 

[Lord George]

I can call my country Orwellian if I wish because it is we have cameras watching us everywhere I go to school, 2 cameras watch me go in there's another in most corridors and a few classrooms have them, I go on the street and there's a camera on top of a lamppost the bloody things are everywhere.

 

[Same River New Water]

Things that would be Orwellian:

- Disinformation campaigns
- Brainwashing
- Society made ostensibly to benefit all, but which instead only benefits the few leaders
- Policing people's beliefs

I'd go further. Really the only thing that's Orwellian, in that it's permanently connected to him in the public imagination because he was the first to spread the idea, is universal surveillance by a malevolent authority. And maybe mass brainwashing. That other stuff was familiar to people well before George Orwell picked up a pen.

 

[Masika]

Would someone be able to explain what exactly Orwellian means. Because I do agree with Eclectic Dreck. Alot of what was said is and what isn't are quite similar. Too similar in my opinion to have any real significant difference.

 

[gh0ti]

Hmmm. I disagree with those saying that the OPs distinction between Orwellian and not-Orwellian is too fine. The things he defined as not Orwellian are the necessary tools of a functioning government, done in good faith for the protection and advancement of its citizenry. Controlling school curricula is necessary so that people leave school with the skills to be successful in the world of work. National/Socialised healthcare is a means to ensure that everybody, regardless of social background, has access to a minimum standard of treatment should they require it. Gun control is determined by public opinion and is put in place to prevent potentially dangerous people from acquiring firearms.

The distinction lies in motivation. The Orwellian examples are all cynical attempts to control the great majority of people for the benefit of the few who hold power/economic advantage. A disinformation campaign is a deliberate attempt to mislead the public through means like propaganda. It is distinct from a government that withholds sensitive information from its citizenry or promotes unity in times of crisis. Brainwashing is a systematic process of social programming, achieved through the aforementioned misinformation campaigns. And policing people's beliefs is very different from encouraging people to hold certain beliefs. For example, arresting every practicing Catholic would be policing beliefs, but running advertising campaigns to promote racial tolerance is not.

 

[Masika]

Hmmm. I disagree with those saying that the OPs distinction between Orwellian and not-Orwellian is too fine. The things he defined as not Orwellian are the necessary tools of a functioning government, done in good faith for the protection and advancement of its citizenry. Controlling school curricula is necessary so that people leave school with the skills to be successful in the world of work. National/Socialised healthcare is a means to ensure that everybody, regardless of social background, has access to a minimum standard of treatment should they require it. Gun control is determined by public opinion and is put in place to prevent potentially dangerous people from acquiring firearms.

The distinction lies in motivation. The Orwellian examples are all cynical attempts to control the great majority of people for the benefit of the few who hold power/economic advantage. A disinformation campaign is a deliberate attempt to mislead the public through means like propaganda. It is distinct from a government that withholds sensitive information from its citizenry or promotes unity in times of crisis. Brainwashing is a systematic process of social programming, achieved through the aforementioned misinformation campaigns. And policing people's beliefs is very different from encouraging people to hold certain beliefs. For example, arresting every practicing Catholic would be policing beliefs, but running advertising campaigns to promote racial tolerance is not.

You make a good point. I am still a little uninformed on what Orwellian is exactly and what seperates it from the things mentioned.

What has this been used for lately? I have never in my life heard of anything being Orwellian and I tend to be quite up to date on things.

 

[bmf185]

School criteria could be considered Orwellian because he mentioned brainwashing the children to turn in their parents in 1984. In fact school criteria is used accidentally or on purpose to control populations. I had to a history report on why the robber barons were actually leaders of industry. Read Lies My Teacher Told Me to have it explained by someone more coherent than I am.

Quick quiz: What Orwell's real name?

Eric Blair. Without Wikipedia. And thanks for posting just about what I was going to say about controlling school curricula.

 

[PersianLlama]

School criteria could be considered Orwellian because he mentioned brainwashing the children to turn in their parents in 1984. In fact school criteria is used accidentally or on purpose to control populations. I had to a history report on why the robber barons were actually leaders of industry. Read Lies My Teacher Told Me to have it explained by someone more coherent than I am.

Quick quiz: What Orwell's real name?

Eric Blair. Without Wikipedia. And thanks for posting just about what I was going to say about controlling school curricula.

I think his middle name was Arthur. Also without Wikipedia, although, you can't really prove this kind of thing on the interwebs.

To the OP: At least the people you know actually read. The most I've seen anybody in my school read is Twilight or Harry Potter. However sir, you are correct, but I still don't see why people use the term in the first place.

 

[McClaud]

I'd like to request that whoever keeps using the term "Keynesian" to stop using it.

The four times I saw it used in some economic thread somewhere, it was used either in a twisted fashion, or incomplete fashion, or totally wrong fashion.

In short, I do not think that word means what he thinks it means (or he's just utterly bullsh*tting).