A series of questions to those who want change in female game roles.
- Thread starter Ramzal
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You know, and I am probably going to be flamed for this (don't bother, I have my opinion and your indignation won't change it, though some of you will fail to heed this disclaimer anyway, but just don't quote me to *****, okay?) but I kind of don't care about this issue anymore. Fiction is fiction. Sometimes I don't care about the 'social implications'. If I wanted to hear about the social implications of the portrayal of women in art and media, I'd read a book about it. Strong female characters can be great, don't mistake me, but I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed sometimes to have silly dumb fun and see an unrealistically sexy female character. That's why it's called 'fantasy' after all. It doesn't change my view of women, my relationships with women are very stable and healthy, and I won't turn into a misogynist rapist because I saw a women with unrealistically revealing armor.
I see this thread has crashed and burned, never mind I'll just leave these examples of what are, in my opinion, well written, attractive female characters
I've just picked a bunch at random, I tried to go for a wide spread and wanted to include some well written-yet-scantily-clad heroines, but couldn't think of any other than the Black Lagoon girls. Sadly I reckon that if a character's being dressed in as little clothing as possible any hope of her being more than a pair of breasts on legs has gone out of the question.
Someone said earlier in this thread that a well-written female is just one that isn't swamped by her sexuality, and I heartily agree with that
I've just picked a bunch at random, I tried to go for a wide spread and wanted to include some well written-yet-scantily-clad heroines, but couldn't think of any other than the Black Lagoon girls. Sadly I reckon that if a character's being dressed in as little clothing as possible any hope of her being more than a pair of breasts on legs has gone out of the question.
Someone said earlier in this thread that a well-written female is just one that isn't swamped by her sexuality, and I heartily agree with that
You know what was a great female character? the girl in Noir that curses in pretty much every sentence. But ya in general most females arn't written to have a lot of personality. Sometimes i think that females are put in some games just to shut up people claiming sexism
I think they are from the same game...but I havnt playes itElPatron said:
the game itself is not my point, even if you take out the "realism" factor her outfit looks 10x more retartded than his does...because she's suposed to be eye candy she has to look stupid...and it does it looks stupid, I mean I can accept say...Mirandas outfit from ME2 or even Catwomen and her broken zipper (but don't get me started on heels)
it would not hurt anyone for her to have an outfit that was "jsut a bit" less stupid, "unrealistic" as his outfit may be it still looks more funtional...this is not a "nitpicking" issue, hers is a write off at first glance....anyway its not just "realism" its the she is not a charachter...she is a walking pair of tits, an object
or if we were to forget about the outfits for a second, its actually [b/]the pose[/b] thats more important..
that did the guys body language tell us? to me it came across that he was agile, fast, and deadly the way he brandished the knife
the girls was...more neutral, she was just kind of there...alot of the time women look like they are modeling for the veiwer...
my point with all of this is male and female sexuality/objectification are different (this goes beyond just games and media) those two pictures are not eaqual in terms of objectification, the ninja and her are not interchangable
All coincidental. The male suit and equipment look devoid of any function. Besides, he's supposed to be a ninja and those games aren't about stealth.Vault101 said:
I'd say both belong to the same "universe". It's like complaining about Lindsay Lohan gunning down people dressed as nun in a movie where a guy had his intestines used for rappelling.
They are more equal than you imagine.Vault101 said:
I don't remember at what part she deals with that issue so I guess you'll have to sit trough it.
Eh, isn't that blonde "gal" Maximilian Pegasus?Snowbell said:I see this thread has crashed and burned, never mind I'll just leave these examples of what are, in my opinion, well written, attractive female characters
I've just picked a bunch at random, I tried to go for a wide spread and wanted to include some well written-yet-scantily-clad heroines, but couldn't think of any other than the Black Lagoon girls. Sadly I reckon that if a character's being dressed in as little clothing as possible any hope of her being more than a pair of breasts on legs has gone out of the question.
Someone said earlier in this thread that a well-written female is just one that isn't swamped by her sexuality, and I heartily agree with that
The resemblance is striking to say the least.
First, sorry for taking so long to respond, workload at university got heavier than expected and coming back to a thread that had essentially turned into a smouldering trainwreck put me off a rather hefty tad from replying.Ramzal said:
"Victimized" strikes me as a rather strange term in this context. I get what you mean, but I still find it an odd choice of words. But I digress.
Sure, I can get on board with the idea that most male characters are tedious, dull and on occasion, espousing a socially backwards stereotype. So what does me conceding that accomplish? Seriously asking.
War setting, fair enough. Your first stumbling block is of course the fantasy setting. Think about that word for a second. Fantasy. That's right, folks, in a fantasy female characters can do what they want, because the same rules as on earth don't apply.Womplord said:
What about 'adventure'? A little less clear cut, sure, but again, why the fuck wouldn't a female character be able to have an adventure? If solid snake can beat up 500 guys without dying, is it so much of a stretch to imagine a female character who can beat up 400 people? Does that really offend your sense of being 'realistic.'? (bear in mind your characters probably survive multiple bullet wounds and have a seemingly endless amount of bag space.)
The point is, unless your game is a a gritty war game or in a historical setting, female characters can do what they want. And even in a historic setting, it's not like there were NO prominent women. What about Boudicia, or whatever. Use your imagination.
I'm a bit late to the party but I just wanted to pip in and say that this is pretty much my thoughts exactly, agree completely. If people/women want good female characters that current game developers aren't providing, then it's up to them to make the characters they want to see. Add to that the fact that the software/tech industry is literally a sausage fest to the point where universities are throwing a ton scholarships left and right to get women in there and it's no wonder that there's so much pandering to the male demographic. More game developers are male, therefore they make what they know and like.Legion said:
Would I prefer better characters? Of course. But if I'm that desperate for better characters, it's unrealistic to expect others to do it exactly the way I want. There aren't a whole lot of good latino characters in games, the fact that there aren't a whole lot of latino game developers might have something to do with it...
Tippy posted this video on page 3 and you should seriously check it out, truly fascinating. I watched the whole thing and this woman is a genius, what she says totally explains why there's so much complaining and not as much doing.
You know what's sad? Blatant male power fantasy fiction like Campione has better female characters than quite a few video games. This is an image from the end of the opening sequence of Campione:http://randomc.net/image/Campione/Campione%20-%20OP%20-%20Large%2006.jpg
Note how the posing just screams "Yea I'm surrounded by hot women. Fuck you I'm the shit." The sad thing is that at least two out of the four women there are actually competent fighters and don't fight in G-strings. Granted they fight in regular type clothing but at least it isn't ludicrous which is surprising since this show is nothing more than a male power fantasy. If you actually examine the qualities Erica and Liliana posses you would find them to be excellent starting points for decent female characters especially if you removed the constraint of them existing in a male power fantasy of the harem type. Just let this sink in, a harem anime is beating videogame writers at this sort of thing.
Note how the posing just screams "Yea I'm surrounded by hot women. Fuck you I'm the shit." The sad thing is that at least two out of the four women there are actually competent fighters and don't fight in G-strings. Granted they fight in regular type clothing but at least it isn't ludicrous which is surprising since this show is nothing more than a male power fantasy. If you actually examine the qualities Erica and Liliana posses you would find them to be excellent starting points for decent female characters especially if you removed the constraint of them existing in a male power fantasy of the harem type. Just let this sink in, a harem anime is beating videogame writers at this sort of thing.
Yay! Bringing up this topic again, but this comment kind of rages me hard.Legion said:
You do actually bring up a lot of good points, and it's also nice to see that you know where the problem is coming from, but this attitude is just so bad though. I mean, it is BAD!
It kind of comes off that people don't have the right to criticize something because, by the end of the day, the gaming industry is the one with all the power and they're not going to change no matter what we do.
At least, that's what I get out of this comment.
Ok, you didn't put it like that, the ultimate line was "I do not have the right to state that the industry ought to change to satisfy my own personal desires" and even then, I'm really iffy on the whole thing.
Sure, things aren't going to be the way we exactly want them to be, but they can certainly improve if we get enough people on the same page and make our voices heard, then we can certainly try to steer the industry in the right direction.
The big thing we can try to do is start demanding more quality games and actually buy them. The problem is, that's not exactly happening. Sure, we have occasional gems that actually do well, but sometimes the more special games that are actually clever with good writing and something that's actually different for a change are the ones that don't do as well. You know, something like Psychonauts or Beyond Good and Evil.
This is a problem on both sides though. Maybe if the industry wasn't charging FUCKING 60$ A POP FOR ALL OF THE FUCKING NEW RELEASES, MAYBE THE FUCKING PEOPLE WOULD ACTUALLY BE A LITTLE LESS RELUCTANT TO TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT FOR A CHANGE.
Ok, sorry, the way the industry handles things really pisses me off. But, anyways, here's you're part.
Make your voice heard and whenever you see something that fits your idea and you would like to see more of those kinds of games, buy it and try to get a lot of other guys to buy it. If enough people chime in and what they want, the industry might actually take a risk, but it's up to the consumers to help them be thankful that they took that risk, otherwise they'll go "Nope, it's been proven once again that nobody wants to buy these kinds of games" and then we get another mediocre online shooter because that's apparently all people ever want.
Yes, the industry has the ultimate say in what gets released, but we as the people can actually help and speak up for more quality games.
So, please, try not to shut people down for actually wanting the industry to change. You said it yourself that you would like to see changes, but if you and everyone does their part, these changes can happen. Just, don't put the gaming industry in the right like your doing right now with a line like this "developers should be able to spend their money on whatever the hell they like" because that's not a good attitude to have.
We, as the consumers need to start demanding better games, and if we actually get the industry to take a risk and make them be thankful for taking that risk, then we can see improvements. We have the right to want better. We have the right to say that the industry needs to change. But we also have to do our part as well.
You clearly didn't read my post thoroughly then, as I gave several examples of things that I'd like changed, that I explicitly stated that I had the right to want changed, but do not have the right to demand it.Conner42 said:
I am also not referring to obvious things such as poor business models (rushing out shoddy games because people will buy it due to the name), treating your customers like criminals (excessive DRM) or rehashing the same game over and over until it's bled dry (Guitar Hero-esque games).
I am referring to artistic decisions such as character creation, settings, genres and art style.
For example people criticised Borderlands for having it's cell shaded art as it was considered "lazy", so do they have the right to demand it be more realistic? Are they invested in the product? Have they spent time, effort or money on it?
If not, why do they have the right to demand such things? To want it, sure, to suggest it, yes, to say that it'd influence their decision to buy it, why not.
But to outright say "You have to make it with a normal visual style?"
Absolutely fucking not, it's not theirs, and nobody is forcing them to buy it. Video games are a luxury, not a right.
But, at that same time, this is kind of a worthy thing to demand. It's not comparable to Borderlands' art style.Legion said:
But the thing is, you're using statements like this to shut down other people's arguments. Yes, video games are a luxury, but a statement like that shouldn't be used to say something like "we don't have a right to demand better". We want better because we care about it enough.
And, to be fair, the business aspect of games can be a lot of the reasons why video games aren't exactly an artistic medium yet and why the industry doesn't really want to do anything about it.
We're not arguing over art style though, we're not arguing to change things that are already finished projects. We're arguing for a better future.
It's not exactly a bad thing to demand that things be better in the future.
I think people are forgetting the monetary aspect of the business. Artistic games, or ones that cater to a specific demographic beyond the norm, are not normally successful; nor is there a way to gauge the success of a new venture before it's released. People look at the successful, and try to copy it. Who would have guessed that 'Angry Birds' would have made that much money?Conner42 said:
It's a strange thing to ask the Devs to cater to our interests, but rely on them to assume the risk, whether we bless it with reward or the market deems it a failure. Besides that it's the publishers and investors that provide the opportunity to the Devs to even explore the medium in ways in which they can justify to their financial backers.
Kickstarter is an interesting step in the direction of creativity, but how many of you have actually donated? And those that did; did you get what you wanted? Did you have any criticisms of the finished product?
Even a more "historically pure" form of art, such as painting; is still subject to the whims of the market. So one painter makes millions while another barely scrapes by. Devs, sadly, come and go based on the outcomes of there first big venture. Several make the switch to FTP models because of piracy issues. And we as a community still demand better from them?
The industry is a financial mind field, filled with artistic criticisms, copy cats, pirates, IP battles, and a consumer base that always seems to find fault in it in some way while ranting on about how they could do better and ask for more for less. Indeed, let us place the blame on the Devs, it's worked so well for us.
example of a realistic female character in media?
well it would have to be a deep and complex character with an arch that is relatable and that's about it really.And for examples?
well there is all of the female chracters in these franchises:
digimon tamers, infamous 2 ,uncharted,all bioware RPGs that are good,harry potter,fallout,l.a.noire,half-life,portal,scott pilgrim,batman,the good final-fantasy games, kill-bill,persona,teen titans,a metroid game that isn't other m,legend of zelda,madoka magika,
spirited away,the list goes on.
well it would have to be a deep and complex character with an arch that is relatable and that's about it really.And for examples?
well there is all of the female chracters in these franchises:
digimon tamers, infamous 2 ,uncharted,all bioware RPGs that are good,harry potter,fallout,l.a.noire,half-life,portal,scott pilgrim,batman,the good final-fantasy games, kill-bill,persona,teen titans,a metroid game that isn't other m,legend of zelda,madoka magika,
spirited away,the list goes on.