a social experiment on racism

[Lightknight]

don't confuse the issue, I didn't say we don't have power Marcus Garvey, MLK and Malcolm X prove we do, I'm saying the western world we live in is catered to whites regards if the common white dude benefits, I'm pointing out that the way we live is flawed and by our own ignorance or not doing enough we allow it to work. In many cases it's our own fault in others it's higher ups intentionally stifling progress.

A significant majority of the US is white. You're going to see white people in ads, in games, movies, and in TV shows. It is not reasonable to expect 50% representation for groups that do not make up 50% of the population. It is only reasonable for 1 member of any group to expect to count as one full person/vote and no more.

Who said anything about 50/50? It used to be the case when Black people did get representation it was more charactertures and stereotypes, that was the systems fault but when we developed we allowed the old representations to stick, we still do.

Other minority races have that similar problem.

Representation in general is always going to be exaggerations of the person. That's good story writing and is less boring than exact representations. But I understand what you mean as there has been a significantly disgraceful past of mockery in representation which isn't the same as extreme exaggerations.

Still, you would be incorrect if you believe that all races aren't exaggerated nowadays. The problem with exaggerating an extreme majority though is the diversity of people doesn't lend to so easy a stereotype. For example, you do have stereotypical micro-groups like rich white kids that want to pretend like they're gangster, you have the nerd, or the country hick. These get presented as caricatures and we don't really bat an eye at them because they're just small parts of such a large machine that we don't see it as taking a crack at the race as a whole.

Then you get the shows that behave like there's only one kind of black guy and that is immediately (and should be) offensive because it's as if they're pointing at the entire race and not just a subset. But shows like Smart Guy and Fresh Prince took large steps in showing that there's the same range of diversity across races and it's mostly just about where you grew up and how you were raised.

 

[Lightknight]

Rape is not a result of poverty.

Actually, a significant increase in crimes across the board are generally attributed to poverty. Thus, there are several rapings that happen which would not have happened if the perpetrator was not poor and filled with a sense of a lack of control of their environment. That's not any sort of justification of a demonic act, just a commentary and analysis on some elements of motivations in a complex world where shit things happen.

But sure, rape in general is not purely the result of poverty. It's just that its chances are greatly increased in impoverished areas. Don't know what you guys were discussing though so carry on.

Yes, people have been taught about previous and extreme examples of racism. Yes, everyone knows that "racism", in a vague and nebulous way, is a bad thing.

That's why people will preface racist statements with "I'm not racist, but...", and often believe it.

Yes, members of society will actively blacklist certain racists, and there will be a shitload of other people defending them. How many western nations don't have political parties which have openly racist members or agendas?

Your profile says you are from the US. If you think that the Republican party, which is large and powerful with millions of supporters, doesn't have serious problems with racism, then you are one of the people who is uninformed about racism.

People being informed about racism and there being racism are two different things. It is an extreme misjudgment to believe that people aren't going to be racist just because they're better informed about what it feels like to be discriminated against. Quite the opposite is true. Humans are tribalistic by nature. We will make any kind of silly line to distinguish our people from not our people and we will take actions based on that belief no matter how arbitrary. So it is erroneous to think people will magically not be racist just because they understand what effect their racism has. Just like it's crazy to think that a criminal won't commit crime just because they understand they might get caught or that them taking $20 means the person they took it from won't have that $20 anymore.

But hey, it's nice to see people who have a better belief in mankind's ability to not be complete assholes. I don't have that kind of faith in us, frankly.

 

[Thaluikhain]

People being informed about racism and there being racism are two different things. It is an extreme misjudgment to believe that people aren't going to be racist just because they're better informed about what it feels like to be discriminated against.

I'd definitely agree with that. Savage comes to mind, he's a prominent gay rights activist who hates bisexuals.

However, being aware of your own discrimination doesn't mean you'll understand someone else's. It's very common for people who are racist (among other things) to be convinced that racism isn't an issue, or at least the racism they hold themselves. IMHO, a lot of racism is born of, and promotes, ignorance and misinformation.

 

[Lightknight]

People being informed about racism and there being racism are two different things. It is an extreme misjudgment to believe that people aren't going to be racist just because they're better informed about what it feels like to be discriminated against.

I'd definitely agree with that. Savage comes to mind, he's a prominent gay rights activist who hates bisexuals.

However, being aware of your own discrimination doesn't mean you'll understand someone else's. It's very common for people who are racist (among other things) to be convinced that racism isn't an issue, or at least the racism they hold themselves. IMHO, a lot of racism is born of, and promotes, ignorance and misinformation.

Well, sure. But I don't know what making them aware of racism related issues will do. Personally, I'd be offended by this practice being performed on me as if my being white means I need that training and I don't think this practice would actually alter how racist people behave.

In my experience, the only thing that breaks down these barriers is actual interaction. My family doesn't have racist practices because my Grandfather was blind and worked in black schools as a piano tuner. He even tuned pianos for the likes of Stevie Wonder. But this meant he had black friends and our family regularly interacted with the black community.

That lack of racism in one family from the deep south wasn't born out of white guilt or some lesson that racism was bad. I simply grew up around black families and had black friends who each had unique personalities and specialized interests so it didn't occur to me to box an entire race into one group. The more you're around members of a distinct group, the more you begin to learn about the individuals and stop failing to see the trees for the forest if I may use that analogy. Telling people that believing something is bad or that their actions negatively effect people and expecting it to change behaviors is naive at best. We've got to start accepting that people are going to be asses and are going to be afraid of things they aren't familiar with or don't understand. Racism does perpetuate the cycle of ignorance. You're right. But it's not ignorance of the effect of prejudice that will resolve it. It's ignorance of the individuals and culture they're racist against that's the heart of it.

If you want to make a difference in society as far as acceptance. You merely need to figure out ways of creating instances of positive interactions. Integration of schools is perhaps the number one best advance in the fight against racism our country has had. Had integration not have been established, then there's so many people that I care deeply about today that I wouldn't have had the opportunity to meet. This is actually why I'm strongly against the black only universities that are springing up around the country. The goal of giving black youths a better future is absolutely admirable but the lack of interactions with diverse cultures and races will perpetuate the same racial ignorance we had during segregation (it's also entirely racist but that's another discussion I suppose). But when I think of black people. I don't think of a race. I think of names. I believe that most racist people don't do that. They think broadly and if they think of individuals it's negative interactions like the time they got mugged rather than a time they had a fun sleepover with their best buddy who happened black.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Well, sure. But I don't know what making them aware of racism related issues will do. Personally, I'd be offended by this practice being performed on me as if my being white means I need that training and I don't think this practice would actually alter how racist people behave.

Well, yes, you might not personally need to be told, but then again lots of people do. Just have to put up with it because

In my experience, the only thing that breaks down these barriers is actual interaction. My family doesn't have racist practices because my Grandfather was blind and worked in black schools as a piano tuner. He even tuned pianos for the likes of Stevie Wonder. But this meant he had black friends and our family regularly interacted with the black community.

That lack of racism in one family from the deep south wasn't born out of white guilt or some lesson that racism was bad. I simply grew up around black families and had black friends who each had unique personalities and specialized interests so it didn't occur to me to box an entire race into one group. The more you're around members of a distinct group, the more you begin to learn about the individuals and stop failing to see the trees for the forest if I may use that analogy. Telling people that believing something is bad or that their actions negatively effect people and expecting it to change behaviors is naive at best. We've got to start accepting that people are going to be asses and are going to be afraid of things they aren't familiar with or don't understand. Racism does perpetuate the cycle of ignorance. You're right. But it's not ignorance of the effect of prejudice that will resolve it. It's ignorance of the individuals and culture they're racist against that's the heart of it.

If you want to make a difference in society as far as acceptance. You merely need to creating instances of positive interactions. Integration of schools is perhaps the one of the best advances in the fight against racism our country has had. Had integration not have been established, then there's so many people that I care deeply about today that I wouldn't have had the opportunity to meet. This is actually why I'm strongly against the black only universities that are springing up around the country. The goal of giving black youths a better future is absolutely admirable but the lack of interactions with diverse cultures and races will perpetuate the same racial ignorance we had during segregation (it's also entirely racist but that's another discussion I suppose). But when I think of black people. I don't think of a race. I think of names. I believe that most racist people don't do that. They think broadly and if they think of individuals it's negative interactions like the time they got mugged rather than a time they had a fun sleepover with their best buddy who happened black.

I mostly agree with that, but I still think ignorance is one of the main problems. I definitely agree that interaction is one of the best ways to combat this, though.

OTOH, you have lots of people waving their black friends around in an attempt to prove they aren't racist.

And, yeah, informing people about racism or anything else they are doing wrong only really works if they want to be better, which often seems like a naive hope.

 

[Lightknight]

I mostly agree with that, but I still think ignorance is one of the main problems. I definitely agree that interaction is one of the best ways to combat this, though.

But ignorance of what? I don't think ignorance of the impact of racism is the problem. It's ignorance of the people they're being racist against. I thought this was the entire crux of our discussion. That you believe this social experiment teaches people about discrimination and that doing so somehow accomplishes something while I think it's meaningless without getting rid of ignorance of people who make up the group the individuals are racist against. I'd much rather see a group of people of various races standing up and talking about their interests and careers. Just making the people better informed about individual people.

OTOH, you have lots of people waving their black friends around in an attempt to prove they aren't racist.

Well, how many of these people have a number of genuine black friends? I don't mean people who have a group of friends who have a token black friend in the group who the individual doesn't really talk with that much. I mean black friends who they hang out with alone and enjoy the company of? There's a big difference between the two. Proximity to is not equivalent to true friendship and relationship. I'll also add that there is a difference between one black friend and many. It's easy to think of someone as an exception to the rule but it's hard to justify biases when a ton of contradictions spring to mind.

And, yeah, informing people about racism or anything else they are doing wrong only really works if they want to be better, which often seems like a naive hope.

Even people who want to be better have trouble really getting a handle unless they understand specifically why to be better.

Take a look at the picture below. I've often asked myself what a racist person sees when they look at it. Do they think of the conflict as a whole and make rationalizations for what happening. Or do they think about this little girl walking to school and what she must be going through and feeling? I guess I really place a lot of emphasis on people seeing a black person as just "another one" and not David, John, Sara, Jessica. You know?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ed/The-problem-we-all-live-with-norman-rockwell.jpg

I once served on a Jury of a case accusing a black man of something despite there being very little evidence. Just the statement of a witness who later recanted but the statement required the government pursue legal action and so our tax money was wasted. I bring this up because another white juror walked up to me while I was standing alone on a balcony outside and he said, "I don't hate black people, I just think everyone should own one." I was shocked and horrified at his statement. For a moment I even wondered what in the world possessed him to think I was a person he could confided such a terrible sentiment to before I snapped to the recognition that he saw me as just another white guy in his "tribe". I think about this situation often when I think about this matter. I recall his hesitance to go with not guilty even though everyone else easily pointed to the lack of evidence against guilt and only evidence in favor of innocence. That he would send an innocent man to jail because of his race. I think about that statement he made and realize that to him that one man wasn't on trial, it was that man's race. Sometimes I wonder how men like that guy have impacted the way a black man may see me. How many people have assumed that I hated them or would discriminate against them just because I was white and didn't even think they were being the only racist one there?

What right do we have to be judged by our actions only if we judge other people by their appearance? I'm not color blind. That's a dumb statement. Of course I know a guy is black or white and of course I understand that there are different cultures. Ignoring that these cultures exist does little more than rob us of the ability to learn from them and celebrate the positive differences. But what I am is individual focused. What is that person like instead of which cultural group is that person part of. The question we need to focus on is how to get people to start seeing like that. Because that's when we'll start to see others really putting themselves in other peoples' shoes and that's when understanding how discrimination feels will make a difference.

 

[Thaluikhain]

But ignorance of what? I don't think ignorance of the impact of racism is the problem. It's ignorance of the people they're being racist against. I thought this was the entire crux of our discussion. That you believe this social experiment teaches people about discrimination and that doing so somehow accomplishes something. I'd much rather see a group of people of various races standing up and talking about their interests and careers. Just making the people better informed about individual people.

I'd have said it was both ignorance about the people they are being racist against, and also ignorance about racism itself.

Most people don't consider themselves to be racist. When they do something racist, they either rationalise it away, or don't recognise the issue in the first place.

As for this particular experiment, well, it might maybe achieve something, in a vague and hamfisted way. But, yes, putting a friendly face to different races would be a lot better.

Well, how many of these people have a number of genuine black friends? I don't mean people who have a group of friends who have a token black friend in the group who the individual doesn't really talk with that much. I mean black friends who they hang out with alone and enjoy the company of? There's a big difference between the two. Proximity to is not equivalent to true friendship and relationship. I'll also add that there is a difference between one black friend and many. It's easy to think of someone as an exception to the rule but it's hard to justify biases when a ton of contradictions spring to mind.

Well, yes, but I'd say it's still possible to have many friends of a certain race and still be racist against that race, to an extent. Now, that person isn't likely to be KKK style racist or anything, but they may harbour plenty of unacknowledged and unchallenged attitudes and viewpoints that are racist. They've grown up in a society full of racist people and racist messages, it'd be surprising if that hadn't had any impact on them at all.

But what I am is individual focused. What is that person like instead of which cultural group is that person part of. The question we need to focus on is how to get people to start seeing like that. Because that's when we'll start to see others really putting themselves in other peoples' shoes and that's when understanding how discrimination feels will make a difference.

I'd agree there, but how this is to be accomplished is beyond me.

You've also got the problem in that that is something many are likely to say, whether it is true of them or not. People tend to not want to stand up and say that they judge people based on stereotypes and prejudices they hold. They'd prefer to claim the job has been done, and get very angry with people pointing out that it isn't.

 

[Lightknight]

I'd have said it was both ignorance about the people they are being racist against, and also ignorance about racism itself.

Most people don't consider themselves to be racist. When they do something racist, they either rationalise it away, or don't recognise the issue in the first place.

As for this particular experiment, well, it might maybe achieve something, in a vague and hamfisted way. But, yes, putting a friendly face to different races would be a lot better.

Hmm, we seem to be more in agreement than I thought.

Well, yes, but I'd say it's still possible to have many friends of a certain race and still be racist against that race, to an extent. Now, that person isn't likely to be KKK style racist or anything, but they may harbour plenty of unacknowledged and unchallenged attitudes and viewpoints that are racist. They've grown up in a society full of racist people and racist messages, it'd be surprising if that hadn't had any impact on them at all.

Perhaps you're right but I have a really hard time imagining anyone who is really close friends with multiple members of any other given race who is still racist against even that race. I assume if you open up your eyes to another race that it automatically extends to others but I'm really not sure on that front. Having been raised in the sort of household I was I'm not familiar with the struggles that a person would go through to undo racist reinforcement. Did you have a past where you were racist (not just ignorant) and eventually got away from it? I'd be very interested in hearing someone's description of that kind of past. But I suppose today's society even opposes people admitting they ever were. If anyone reading this wouldn't feel comfortable describing the transition to me in this thread, feel free to PM me and I promise it'll stay between the two of us.

You've also got the problem in that that is something many are likely to say, whether it is true of them or not. People tend to not want to stand up and say that they judge people based on stereotypes and prejudices they hold. They'd prefer to claim the job has been done, and get very angry with people pointing out that it isn't.

To claim that racism doesn't exist at all? Is that what you mean they'd like to claim by the "job has been done"? That'd be a hilariously outlandish claim for anyone to make but I don't doubt you. I do feel that we have a lot of the tools in place to progress our society away from racism. A lot of my generation appear to have moved well past racial discrimination and it's my hope that the vast majority of the next generation will have moved even further. There will always be groups of people that self-segregate but the tools are out there to end it and that's a lot better than what we had before integration. I say that like I'm old and lived through desegregation but I'm not.

 

[DementedSheep]

Heh, I love how various brands of Social Justice Warriors like to position themselves above racism. I bet they still shit their pants pretty bad, when approached by ghetto dressed blacks on the street at night. With good reason too.

Info based on FBI National Crime Victimization Survey and a lot of informative links:

Spoiler

http://www.examiner.com/article/federal-statistics-of-black-on-white-violence-with-links-and-mathematical-extrapolation-formulas

Blacks are seven times more likely than people of other races to commit murder, and eight times more likely to commit robbery.

Blacks are three times more likely to use a hand gun, and twice more likely to use a knife.

Hispanics commit three times more violent crimes than whites, but the statistics are nebulous because sometimes they are classified as white, so it could be far higher.

The best indicator of violent crime levels in an area is the percent of the population that is black and Hispanic.

Blacks are 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against whites then vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit a robbery.

Forty-five percent of black crime is against whites, 43 against other blacks, and 10 percent against Hispanic.

Blacks are seven times more likely to go to prison, Hispanics three times, and the reason is clear, because from 1980 to 2003 the US incarceration rate has tripled, and so proves that Justice is not only hard won, but well served.

Interracial Rape Statistics:

Spoiler

http://www.library.flawlesslogic.com/rape.htm
Studies from the late 1950s showed that the vast majority of rapes were same-race offenses. Research in Philadelphia carried out in 1958 and 1960 indicated that of all rapes, only 3.2 percent were black-on-white assaults and 3.6 percent were white-on-black. Since that time, the proportion of black-on-white rapes has soared. In a 1974 study in Denver, 40 percent of all rapes were of whites by blacks, and not one case of white-on-black rape was found. In general, through the 1970s, black-on-white rape was at least ten times more common that white-on-black rape. [319]

Because interracial rape is now overwhelmingly black on white, it has become difficult to do research on it or to find relevant statistics. The FBI keeps very detailed national records on crime, but the way it presents rape data obscures the racial element rather than clarifies it. Dr. William Wilbanks, a criminologist at Florida International University, had to sift carefully through the data to find that in 1988 there were 9,406 cases of black-on-white rape and fewer than ten cases of white-on-black rape. [320] Another researcher concludes that in 1989, blacks were three or four times more likely to commit rape than whites, and that black men raped white women thirty times as often as white men raped black women. [321]

Interracial crime figures are even worse than they sound. Since there are more than six times as many whites as blacks in America, it means that any given black person is vastly more likely to commit a crime against a white than vice versa.

I don't think racism among white people is caused by old prejudice anymore, it's more like a defense mechanism... I would probably be considered racist as fuck if I lived in USA. Though, during my work in Brazil I've had predominately non-white friends, so go figure.

Crime goes up the lower down on in the socio-economic bracket you are. Yes, minority races tend to commit far more crime for this reason. It also goes up in broken homes. Groups get stuck in the poverty trap and it's self perpetuating cycle that isn't specific to blacks. Not to mention how are theses stats gathered? if you already think the justice system is against you are going to report crime against yourself, especially if its committed by someone in a better position to the police? If you do go the police and the person doesn't get charged would it appear on these stats? If your falsely accused and get charged would it appear on these these stats? This dose not "emphatically prove" that there isn't bias in the justice system as this article is trying to claim.

Rape is not a result of poverty.

Not directly no but several environmental and social factor that tend to go along with poverty can also impeded moral and empathetic development as well as lead to people being in bad space mentally so crime across the board goes up not just those directly related to getting resources. And if you already unlawful or don't think there is any point to following laws that's one less barrier. That's not to say poor = rapist, just that frequency of rape goes up with poverty.

And again unreported crime, falsely convected or falsely acquitted can't be picked up on these stats.

 

[agent9]

You know it was an alright experiment to see how people would feel with the tables turned, but then I have to ask, haven't you become the monster you hate. it all begins and ends with the individual. as a hispanic over in the US it becomes a bit much at times, but my philosophy is to treat people with the initial respect that I would like to have and if they still want to be an ass then they aren't worth my time, but I would never wish it upon anyone.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Perhaps you're right but I have a really hard time imagining anyone who is really close friends with multiple members of any other given race who is still racist against even that race. I assume if you open up your eyes to another race that it automatically extends to others but I'm really not sure on that front. Having been raised in the sort of household I was I'm not familiar with the struggles that a person would go through to undo racist reinforcement. Did you have a past where you were racist (not just ignorant) and eventually got away from it? I'd be very interested in hearing someone's description of that kind of past. But I suppose today's society even opposes people admitting they ever were. If anyone reading this wouldn't feel comfortable describing the transition to me in this thread, feel free to PM me and I promise it'll stay between the two of us.

I don't think I was ever particularly racist, but when I was younger, I was fairly ignorant of various groups, or at least the reality of them. I'd known about the stereotypes, the cliches and the slurs, though, but not much more. So I accepted, at least to an extent, racist views without thinking to challenge them, because I didn't know any better, and saw no reason to educate myself.

Now, I've gotten a lot better at recognising my own prejudices and coming to terms with them, but I'm hardly perfect, I still slip up sometimes.

To claim that racism doesn't exist at all? Is that what you mean they'd like to claim by the "job has been done"? That'd be a hilariously outlandish claim for anyone to make but I don't doubt you. I do feel that we have a lot of the tools in place to progress our society away from racism. A lot of my generation appear to have moved well past racial discrimination and it's my hope that the vast majority of the next generation will have moved even further. There will always be groups of people that self-segregate but the tools are out there to end it and that's a lot better than what we had before integration. I say that like I'm old and lived through desegregation but I'm not.

Well, there are people that claim that racism is over, or that now it's all reverse racism (see that sort of claim on these forums every so often), but I meant more people claiming that they personally aren't racist, that the problem is solved for them. "I don't see race" etc.

Even if people had decided to take the painful step and acknowledge there is a problem with racism (or whatever social problem), they don't have to take the next painful step and acknowledge that they might be part of the problem.

 

[Thaluikhain]

some people can't accept the idea that their demographic is somhow (dare I say it) Privaliged over another, because they take it personally, as in they think it means "they themsevles" are inatly more privaliged or that its somhow painting them as the "bad guy"

I agree.

People need to understand that just because you have it better off than most groups of people doesn't trivialize the problems you face.

And, that there are various ways of being privileged, and most people will have some working for, and some working against them.

 

[Vegosiux]

some people can't accept the idea that their demographic is somhow (dare I say it) Privaliged over another, because they take it personally, as in they think it means "they themsevles" are inatly more privaliged or that its somhow painting them as the "bad guy"

I agree.

People need to understand that just because you have it better off than most groups of people doesn't trivialize the problems you face.

I vote we move for making it mandatory that every instance of "Check your privilege" is prefaced with "I'm not trying to trivialize the problems you face, but..."

Just to make it perfectly clear that we don't subscribe to a certain mindset, we only act out along the lines it works, which is a totally different thing.

 

[The Crispy Tiger]

That was a stupid video, it proves nothing and ive never seen a black person treated like that in my life. While working with the police a lot of black youth make themselves a target for searching by police due to how they dress or act. They either act suspicious or dress in gang colours or wear one glove which would denote that person as being armed - though many of them dress like that as their style. Yes their are some black people that are probably stopped for no real reason. Problem is when it comes to knife crime and gang violence it is predominately black kids attacking other black kids. When i joined an anti gang task force due to the amount of kids being stabbed and dying about most of the 34 victims were black and the attackers were black. There are lots of reasons why this is the case and being black isnt one of them.

As for racism, there are a lot of arseholes that judge due to colour - nothing will change those people. Or those that are way to PC about it that is just as racist in my book. We have some amazing black actors in this world that star in huge movies, yet people still cry racism just because a black actor plays a criminal in a tv show. When we should be judging them on their ability playing the character instead of screaming racism.

Granted white people are more privileged than black people in some ways. But i would also say they have the same chances as a white person - we all have schooling paid through taxes till 16. A lot of black people take that opportunity and become lawyers, business owners etc Others just accept they wont make it due to being black and give up trying. Maybe thats to do with remembering the issues their parents grow up in, or their grand parents. But its got better.

I live in America so this might be a different situation, but as a black person, I've absolutely been treated like this and this shit sucks. Being PC, is not as racist or racist at all. There's a big scary black man stereotype, which is why a black actor playing a criminal can be considered a bad thing. Stopping people over how they dress if fucking stupid. Yes, black people are pulled over for no reason other being black at times, and gang violence is not as prevalent amongst the black community as you are framing it to be. Basically, nothing you said is true, or made any logical conclusion other then to justify a upsetting point of view looking at thing from a perspective of white privilege, and going "If I haven't seen it, it's not happening." Rather then confronting the harsh reality that all of that shit does happens to black people , unjustly.

 

[Vegosiux]

I live in America so this might be a different situation, but as a black person, I've absolutely been treated like this and this shit sucks. Being PC, is not as racist or racist at all. There's a big scary black man stereotype, which is why a black actor playing a criminal can be considered a bad thing. Stopping people over how they dress if fucking stupid. Yes, black people are pulled over for no reason other being black at times, and gang violence is not as prevalent amongst the black community as you are framing it to be. Basically, nothing you said is true, or made any logical conclusion other then to justify a upsetting point of view looking at thing from a perspective of white privilege, and going "If I haven't seen it, it's not happening." Rather then confronting the harsh reality that all of that shit does happens to black people , unjustly.

A problem I in general have with the term "white privilege" is that it seems to be a result of an American-centric view, the view that the world outside USA is just like USA, that the same issues are relevant, that the same social dynamics are in play. My "privilege" of not being exposed to the presence of racism nearly as much as you have been exposed to it doesn't come from me being white, it comes from me having lived my own life on an entirely different continent.

 

[Thaluikhain]

A problem I in general have with the term "white privilege" is that it seems to be a result of an American-centric view, the view that the world outside USA is just like USA, that the same issues are relevant, that the same social dynamics are in play. My "privilege" of not being exposed to the presence of racism nearly as much as you have been exposed to it doesn't come from me being white, it comes from me having lived my own life on an entirely different continent.

There's certainly an element of that, yeah (here in Australia, activists like copying and pasting US activism, and don't bother to stop and think if it's relevant), but even if it works differently, in most parts of Europe, you have advantages if you are white rather than black. Of course, you might have extra advantages for being the right sort of white, but that's another issue.

 

[Vegosiux]

A problem I in general have with the term "white privilege" is that it seems to be a result of an American-centric view, the view that the world outside USA is just like USA, that the same issues are relevant, that the same social dynamics are in play. My "privilege" of not being exposed to the presence of racism nearly as much as you have been exposed to it doesn't come from me being white, it comes from me having lived my own life on an entirely different continent.

There's certainly an element of that, yeah (here in Australia, activists like copying and pasting US activism, and don't bother to stop and think if it's relevant), but even if it works differently, in most parts of Europe, you have advantages if you are white rather than black. Of course, you might have extra advantages for being the right sort of white, but that's another issue.

Yeah, that's true, but the "right kind of white"-privilege is just a bigger thing, or especially in Slovenia I can say, even "city folk" has many advantages over "rural folk". Black people being disadvantaged is a lesser issue in the big picture when there's really few of them, and other kinds of inequality become more pressing and higher on the list of priorities.

My neighbor is black, working in Slovenia, and the worst he gets is those "Oh hey, a black person, you don't see that every day around here" glances as far as he tells me. Now, if he was an immigrant from Bosnia or Serbia, well...that would be an entirely different tune and a lot more bigotry to deal with, being called "Sandal-wearing chav" and the like.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

SNIP

I live in America so this might be a different situation, but as a black person, I've absolutely been treated like this and this shit sucks. Being PC, is not as racist or racist at all. There's a big scary black man stereotype, which is why a black actor playing a criminal can be considered a bad thing. Stopping people over how they dress if fucking stupid. Yes, black people are pulled over for no reason other being black at times, and gang violence is not as prevalent amongst the black community as you are framing it to be. Basically, nothing you said is true, or made any logical conclusion other then to justify a upsetting point of view looking at thing from a perspective of white privilege, and going "If I haven't seen it, it's not happening." Rather then confronting the harsh reality that all of that shit does happens to black people , unjustly.[/quote]

Not saying there isnt racism and black people arent being abused due to their colour. But i personally havnt seen it that i can remember, an im talking constant abuse like in the video. But i agree, its disgusting in this day and age. Im sure there are racist police, just like there are racist black people. They are every where and they will never change. Though i would like to think racism isnt as bad as it was 50 years ago though i also realise that is a meaningless statement when your on the receiving end of it.

As for the gang stuff. I worked in the London Gang Unit for 2.5 years from 2008 - 2010 and at that time 27 teens were stabbed to death on the streets of London in 2007. All were linked to gang violence and those responsible for it and the victims of it were predominately black teens. Now i would like to mention these are deaths by stabbing and do not include those that got stabbed and survived, nor included adults either - we dealt with teen knife crime. Now im not saying there are no white gang members, in fact there are White gangs, Asian gangs, Turkish gangs, Albanian gangs as well many others with members from teens to adults. An where some would see "27 mostly black teens stabbed to death by other mostly black teens" as a racial issue. Personally me and my unit would work with other statuary services and community leaders to find out why the figures are what they are. An what can be done to help these teens break out of gangs and gang violence and give them the help to gain schooling, jobs and help them move out of the area and away from gang influence. Most of the time they are forced into it for survival if they live in a gang area - they are victims as well as those they attack - as difficult as that is to believe.

So as you can see, im not in denial about how black people are treated by a small minority of society. I was confronting it every day for 2.5 years during my job. But all that horrible stuff i saw i still have never judged all black people by the violent minority of black people. An just because there are racist arseholes out there, black people can beat them by treating other white people respectfully and not judging all of them due to the minority. Otherwise you would be feeding the negative sterotype of black males. Same way if i treated all black males as gang thugs due the minority of black males i met, i would be feeding a black person the idea that all white people are racist arseholes. (If that makes sense, guess i could write that better).

 

[PhiMed]

Rape is not a result of poverty.

No, but it is more frequent in areas of poverty.

Also, convictions are more frequent as well. Class and race play a big part in the US justice system (and, to an extent, other around the world).

Is that something you're assuming, or something on which you've actually seen statistics? The closest thing I've seen to a fact supporting your statement is an association between poverty and being a victim of sexual violence. They include having to resort to prostitution in their definition of "being subjected to sexual violence", which makes sense... desperate people and their measures and all.

On the other hand, I haven't seen anything, anywhere, that uses actual facts to suggest that impoverished people are more likely to perpetrate a rape. In fact, college campuses have rape rates that are generally greater than the rate for the general population, so I'm not too convinced that poverty is that strong a player. As for conviction, it's a widely accepted truism that the rich are more likely to be acquitted than the impoverished purely because of lawyer power, but I'm not sure anyone will ever know much simply being rich has to do with the conviction statistics. It's not an easily tested value. It sounds good, though, and it's logical, so I'm not going to challenge that directly. I'll just say that I don't think the disparity can be attributed, entirely to poverty, especially since saying that the racial statistics are skewed sort of implies that all black people are poor, which is also untrue.

So, is the statement that poverty is associated with being a perpetrator of rape something that you know is true, or something you believe to be true? If it's the former, I wouldn't mind seeing something that supports it. If it's the latter, how sure are you?

 

[Thaluikhain]

Is that something you're assuming, or something on which you've actually seen statistics? The closest thing I've seen to a fact supporting your statement is an association between poverty and being a victim of sexual violence. They include having to resort to prostitution in their definition of "being subjected to sexual violence", which makes sense... desperate people and their measures and all.

On the other hand, I haven't seen anything, anywhere, that uses actual facts to suggest that impoverished people are more likely to perpetrate a rape. In fact, college campuses have rape rates that are generally greater than the rate for the general population, so I'm not too convinced that poverty is that strong a player. As for conviction, it's a widely accepted truism that the rich are more likely to be acquitted than the impoverished purely because of lawyer power, but I'm not sure anyone will ever know much simply being rich has to do with the conviction statistics. It's not an easily tested value. It sounds good, though, and it's logical, so I'm not going to challenge that directly. I'll just say that I don't think the disparity can be attributed, entirely to poverty, especially since saying that the racial statistics are skewed sort of implies that all black people are poor, which is also untrue.

So, is the statement that poverty is associated with being a perpetrator of rape something that you know is true, or something you believe to be true? If it's the former, I wouldn't mind seeing something that supports it. If it's the latter, how sure are you?

It's something I have seen statistics for, though I don't have any to hand at the moment, sorry.

One interpretation of this was that, rape being about power, people who feel powerless and victimised because of one thing might want to take power over and victimise someone else. Responding to classism with sexism. Possibly it might be because, like you say, poor people are more likely to be victims, and people living in poverty have more access to them, but I've no idea if this is a factor.

Though, like you say, conviction rates are going to be skewed, so it's hard to tell, and it's hardly as if it's the only factor.