A song of ice and fire book 5, Spoileriffic!!!

[Mullahgrrl]

As I said spoilers! and also theorising, horror!

So I just finished it some time ago and I've been thinking, do we really belive that Ned 'So Honorable My Head Comes of' Stark had an affair? Might it not be that Jon Snow is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's and that she made Ned promise to take care of him.

If so, that makes Jon Snow a Targarien, now I know they killed him but that doesn't seem to stick like it once did, especially with the fire dudes around, so what I really hope will happen is that they try to burn him and fail and that being the big reveal of his dragonness, dragonity or whatyoumaycallit.


//end spoilers


So what do you think?





Spoilers//

 

[Skipper zammo]

Yeah a lot of people have come up with that theory.
It does make a lot of sense.
However I think a much more likely way that they'll bring Jon back (assuming he didn't survive the attack) is that he'll warg into Ghost for his second life like Orell did with his eagle.

 

[Arsen]

Theon is probably going to be sacrificed...with his blood Melisandre will resurrect Jon.

 

[dragon_tail]

Some people have pointed out that Bran could be one of the dragons riders by warging into one of them.

 

[Skipper zammo]

I hope not. Theons/Reeks chapters are some of my favourites.
But like I said i'm still not entirely convinced he's dead. Other chapters have ended with the character blacking out after being wounded.

 

[Flamezdudes]

Yeah it's pretty obvious at this point (atleast I think so) that Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son. He also has dreams of discovering a secret in the crypts of Winterfell... hint - Lyanna's tomb.

I'd say he'll either survive or warg into Ghost (I mean come on, look at the name) and eventually get back to his body somehow with the help of Melisandre.

 

[Bat Vader]

Yeah it's pretty obvious at this point (atleast I think so) that Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son. He also has dreams of discovering a secret in the crypts of Winterfell... hint - Lyanna's tomb.

I'd say he'll either survive or warg into Ghost (I mean come on, look at the name) and eventually get back to his body somehow with the help of Melisandre.

That is what I think will happen too. If Jon does end up staying dead I think it would pry make a lot of people angry.

 

[omicron1]

Yeah - I have to say, I really doubt George would deprive the Wall of its main viewpoint character, and Melisandre's really not strong enough of a personality to take his place.

On that subject; do you think the presence of the TV show might goad him into writing faster? For fear of them catching up with him, if nothing else?

 

[Crayzor]

If Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, I think him dying and being resurrected somehow, most likely by Melisandre, is a good way to get him out of his vows and go off and do important things with Dany (if she ever gets off her ass and goes to Westeros, that is!).

 

[fulano]

I still dunno what to make of the whole deal of Jon possibly (likely) being a Targaryen. At least from the book we know he is not the "special" kind like Dany is, given how his hand got, well, burned when he burned the shit out of his first wight--he even made a big deal out of it being so and how he lost good use of it for a while. And on top of that he's still a bastard even if he is of Targaryen ascendance, and we know how they, historically, deal with those when they get uppity.

But it all could well be a ruse of Mr. Martin to lead us astray 'cause he could, after all, be trying to convince us of his non-specialness all along when he may well be the Azor Ahai (Prince that Was Promised) that Melissandre keeps harping about.

If going by this:

?It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.?
--Melisandre, SoS, pg. 289

Then Jon sorta fulfills this stuff if you pay close attention to his "death" scene--the only things missing was the dragons waking up. Now, throw in the interpretation that the whole Lightbringer thing may not be an actual sword... ...I mean, remember that Sam said a condensed form of the vow in the Nightfort, which happens to be the oldest castle in there so his words could possibly be a less verbose and more to the point original vow, that they Watch uses and the weird-ass door still opened?

I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men.

If this turns out to be true, and it might, given that George likes to fuck with his audience who takes things like thousand-year-old legends too literally, Jon who is (was?) already Lord Commander of the joint could find out being a Targaryen totally be worth squat, and the whole thing could amount to absolutely nothing in the end. And even if he happens to be Azor Ahai (or Prince that Was Promised), the whole prophecy could still be partly useless given that Dany, who still somewhat fits the bill, is still out there with at least one big fucking Dragon in tow which might come in handy.

In the end it all could be about prophecies being worth jack and having to make due with what you have, be it Targaryen, Stark, or bastard Snow from the north--the Song of Ice and Fire could well be about peanuts, and Jon is the peanut in this story.

 

[Flamezdudes]

I still dunno what to make of the whole deal of Jon possibly (likely) being a Targaryen. At least from the book we know he is not the "special" kind like Dany is, given how his hand got, well, burned when he burned the shit out of his first wight--he even made a big deal out of it being so and how he lost good use of it for a while. And on top of that he's still a bastard even if he is of Targaryen ascendance, and we know how they, historically, deal with those when they get uppity.

But it all could well be a ruse of Mr. Martin to lead us astray 'cause he could, after all, be trying to convince us of his non-specialness all along when he may well be the Azor Ahai (Prince that Was Promised) that Melissandre keeps harping about.

If going by this:

?It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.?
--Melisandre, SoS, pg. 289

Then Jon sorta fulfills this stuff if you pay close attention to his "death" scene--the only things missing was the dragons waking up. Now, throw in the interpretation that the whole Lightbringer thing may not be an actual sword... ...I mean, remember that Sam said a condensed form of the vow in the Nightfort, which happens to be the oldest castle in there so his words could possibly be a less verbose and more to the point original vow, that they Watch uses and the weird-ass door still opened?

I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men.

If this turns out to be true, and it might, given that George likes to fuck with his audience who takes things like thousand-year-old legends too literally, Jon who is (was?) already Lord Commander of the joint could find out being a Targaryen totally be worth squat, and the whole thing could amount to absolutely nothing in the end. And even if he happens to be Azor Ahai (or Prince that Was Promised), the whole prophecy could still be partly useless given that Dany, who still somewhat fits the bill, is still out there with at least one big fucking Dragon in tow which might come in handy.

In the end it all could be about prophecies being worth jack and having to make due with what you have, be it Targaryen, Stark, or bastard Snow from the north--the Song of Ice and Fire could well be about peanuts, and Jon is the peanut in this story.

Not to forget though that when Melisandre asks in the flames to see Azor Ahai, she see's only snow, possibly pointing to Jon. He also had that one dream of his...

"Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she?d appeared."

Black Ice could be Obsidian which as we know is the Other's weakness, but the important part is the part where his blade burned red in his fist - Lightbringer?

There are just so many prophecies pointing to either Daenarys or Jon that it might end of being both of them and one more, since the dragon has three heads.

 

[fulano]

There are just so many prophecies pointing to either Daenarys or Jon that it might end of being both of them and one more, since the dragon has three heads.

Wanna hear something funny? Maybe the third head is Tyrion?
I've had this wacky thought ever since I learned that Aeris had the hots for Tyrion's mom, Joanna. Selmy seems to remember Aeris getting shitfaced and taking some liberties with Tywin's bride in the marriage ceremony, where nothing really happened, but we do know that Tywin spent a shitload of time in King's Landing as Hand of the King, presumably with his wife and kids in tow.

And it could well be a way of Martin's of pulling a fast one on the audience, as one of those little insane things that are so nuts that they might be true. I mean, look at Tyrion: he's a dwarf, he's ugly (Verne Troyer ugly, unlike Dinklage who is good looking), his dad hated his guts then and forever, and he wants so bad to be not just a Lannister but the Lannister, that him turning out to be a Targaryen wouldn't even surprise me.

But, yeah, the only thing I have going for it is that aforementioned Aeris wanting to bone his mom and Chekhov's Gun in the fact that "dialogue" is not the same as writing people talking senseless stuff in a novel.

 

[Flamezdudes]

There are just so many prophecies pointing to either Daenarys or Jon that it might end of being both of them and one more, since the dragon has three heads.

Wanna hear something funny? Maybe the third head is Tyrion?
I've had this wacky thought ever since I learned that Aeris had the hots for Tyrion's mom, Joanna. Selmy seems to remember Aeris getting shitfaced and taking some liberties with Tywin's bride in the marriage ceremony, where nothing really happened, but we do know that Tywin spent a shitload of time in King's Landing as Hand of the King, presumably with his wife and kids in tow.

And it could well be a way of Martin's of pulling a fast one on the audience, as one of those little insane things that are so nuts that they might be true. I mean, look at Tyrion: he's a dwarf, he's ugly (Verne Troyer ugly, unlike Dinklage who is good looking), his dad hated his guts then and forever, and he wants so bad to be not just a Lannister but the Lannister, that him turning out to be a Targaryen wouldn't even surprise me.

But, yeah, the only thing I have going for it is that aforementioned Aeris wanting to bone his mom and Chekhov's Gun in the fact that "dialogue" is not the same as writing people talking senseless stuff in a novel.

Oh yeah i've read about this theory on the Forum of Ice and Fire board, although i'm not sure how much it holds up though... plus i'm not sure whether i'd be annoyed or pleased if he had Targaryen blood in him. Bran on the other hand would be a good third head of the dragon... he could just warg into it.

 

[fulano]

There are just so many prophecies pointing to either Daenarys or Jon that it might end of being both of them and one more, since the dragon has three heads.

Wanna hear something funny? Maybe the third head is Tyrion?
I've had this wacky thought ever since I learned that Aeris had the hots for Tyrion's mom, Joanna. Selmy seems to remember Aeris getting shitfaced and taking some liberties with Tywin's bride in the marriage ceremony, where nothing really happened, but we do know that Tywin spent a shitload of time in King's Landing as Hand of the King, presumably with his wife and kids in tow.

And it could well be a way of Martin's of pulling a fast one on the audience, as one of those little insane things that are so nuts that they might be true. I mean, look at Tyrion: he's a dwarf, he's ugly (Verne Troyer ugly, unlike Dinklage who is good looking), his dad hated his guts then and forever, and he wants so bad to be not just a Lannister but the Lannister, that him turning out to be a Targaryen wouldn't even surprise me.

But, yeah, the only thing I have going for it is that aforementioned Aeris wanting to bone his mom and Chekhov's Gun in the fact that "dialogue" is not the same as writing people talking senseless stuff in a novel.

Oh yeah i've read about this theory on the Forum of Ice and Fire board, although i'm not sure how much it holds up though... plus i'm not sure whether i'd be annoyed or pleased if he had Targaryen blood in him. Bran on the other hand would be a good third head of the dragon... he could just warg into it.

I'd be rather displeased if that nutty theory turned out to be true, to be honest. I do hope Tyrion stays a Lannister. As for Bran? That would be fucking awesome if he turned out to be the third head of the dragon 'cause that would so wreck the Targaryen monopoly on prophecy awesomeness.

 

[Arsen]

I still think Jon and Danaerys are the reincarnations of Rheagar and Lyanna...

Maybe Ned's vow was to make the prophecy happen? I still think he's alive and going to pop up in the final novel, having ensured all these things happened.

 

[Artemis923]

FOR THE WATCH!!!!

Best Jon Snow chapter ever.

Too bad he won't stay dead.

 

[Giftfromme]

Now that Deanerys is coming back to Westeros, she and john will marry, as Targerean's married within the family. Long live the dragons!

 

[Artemis923]

I hope not. Theons/Reeks chapters are some of my favourites.
But like I said i'm still not entirely convinced he's dead. Other chapters have ended with the character blacking out after being wounded.

He's not. There's a Theon chapter on GRRM's site from Winds of Winter...

 

[brunothepig]

Yeah - I have to say, I really doubt George would deprive the Wall of its main viewpoint character, and Melisandre's really not strong enough of a personality to take his place.

On that subject; do you think the presence of the TV show might goad him into writing faster? For fear of them catching up with him, if nothing else?

I really hope not. Don't get me wrong, it kills me that I'll be waiting so long (I feel sorry for the people who read the series long before the show came out) but I prefer an author (or any artist, really) to take their time and give us their best work. Despite the complaints about Martin dragging out Ice and Fire and whatnot, I loved every book, and I'd hate to see the quality drop for the sake of a deadline.

As for these theories, I can't add a lot. I do theorise about this stuff, but usually only with friends, and I'm the only person I know who's read all the books. I have my friend reading them now though, so that's nice. By all means continue your discussion Escapists, I'll just lurk here and hear all the cool things. My two cents though, I would be very shocked to find that Snow was permanently killed. He's an established Warg, although he hasn't explored his powers much, so at the very least he should end up in Ghost. With Melisandre seemingly on his side, you have to figure he'll come back somehow. Of course, with all these ways for him to come back, and all this "evidence" that he's a VIP, to the point of being a "dragon head", it's the perfect way to mess with everyone and just kill him for real.

 

[WolfThomas]

I thought it pointed rather strongly to Jon Snow being Rhaegar and Lyanna's child.

There's a lot of evidence here:
http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/jon.html

I think it's very likely he will come back, just how. There's that all the dead bodies are being stored in ice, that he might be warged into Ghost, Melissandre's there and of course even something like what happened with Coldhands.