Abortion Doctor found guilty of murder following late-term abortions

[Strazdas]

This is no abortion, this is murder of an infant. Abortion by definition is not allowing it to be born.
This is a simple case of a murderiuos doctor who went on about his business from a uncontrolled hospital. something like those cheap horror movie scenarios really.

 

[Boris Goodenough]

I can't find the place where it says they were premature born, it says they were aborted as late as almost 30 weeks.
To play devils advocate, is it better to let the baby suffer for 20 min in exhausting pain or ending its life?
This reminds me of one of the friends of the family who is a medical professor in neonatology who talked about infants surviving for 8 hours when born prematurely at 24 weeks in despite they having no statistical chance of survival beyond 30 min.

When do we set the limit? Medical science will keep on lowering the chance of survival of small children earlier and earlier but they suffer so dearly later on in life with lack of motor functions and organ functions and so on.

 

[launchpadmcqwak]

Disgusting. I'm all for abortion, but killing the poor thing AFTER it's been born is just monstruous. I mean you already gave birth, what's stopping you from delivering it to an orphanage?

Evidently, a pair of scissors.
Apologies, that was a horrible, horrible remark.

This isn't at all a demonstration of how pro-abortion is barbaric.
No, this is a demonstration of a sick individual doing sick things within a sick environment.
Just as a chef can cook up domestic pets that they found and serve them to unwitting customers, just as someone can walk into school with a multitude of firearms. Those aren't normal actions for your typical restaurant or school, and they most certainly aren't normal people doing the action.

But what I find most asinine of all, is the defense lawyer in this case.
In 2009, the man's grossly under-qualified staff administered a lethal dosage of a drug to a patient.
The lawyer states that it was "medical complications", implying that it was a regular procedure undertaken by a staff with credentials and an unforeseeable tragedy that occurred. But in reality, it just malpractice and criminal negligence. For this case, the lawyers are stating that it is simply due to the doctor's ethnicity that he was targeted with charges.

What in the actual fuck.
Have they done a comparison between a qualified abortion clinic and this grizzly shack?
Have they seen the results of the "doctor's" work? Have they heard him describe his procedure?
It sometimes boggles my mind the shit that lawyers will say to get paid.

Sir your remark was beautiful.


OT: I'm pro abortion and i think that psychopath got what he deserved. but hey maybe if legitimate humane abortion wasn't looked down upon so much none of this would have happened?...maybe?

 

[Galletea]

I have to admit, I feel very little in terms of the actual crime. Desperate people will turn to desperate measures, and in these cases the only way to do it was to give birth prematurely and then kill the baby. That in itself doesn't shock me or upset me. I imagine some of these babies would have been born on a kitchen floor and then killed anyway, if they are that desperate to get rid of it.

I feel more towards the women who feel that their only option is to go to somewhere like this, and that carrying the child to full term and giving it up would be more awful for them. These women were just too late for a proper abortion, here in the UK is it 22 weeks I think. They say in the article that one was nearly 30 weeks, which is close to full term, but in the majority it appears to be about the 25 weeks.

I am pro abortion, I suppose it is pro choice, since I don't think abortions are a thing to be taken lightly. There are many reasons why women need to not have a baby, although the system is open to abuse by careless and thoughtless people, and I think need to start asking whether we should be saving babies born at 23 weeks when their lives are so highly likely to be short and painful. Just because they can, does that mean they should?

I think there will always be desperate women who feel they have no where else to turn, and so there will always be a man like this prepared to do whatever is necessary.

 

[launchpadmcqwak]

I'm as big a fan of abortion as anyone. To the point where i think it should be mandatory unless you can prove that you have at least $250,000 on deposit somewhere strictly allocated to the child's upbringing. But this is not abortion. This is straight up murder. Not malpractice. However i also don't believe that the death penalty is appropriate. He should be made to endure life in prison among understanding inmates. I do however think that his own spinal cord should be appropriately damaged enough to cause paralysis and then left to the tender mercy of the other inmates in general population. Even if they take pity on him and choose to help him live, he will have to live as helpless and reliant as an infant.

Something tells me you could use a holiday in Saudi Arabia my friend.

 

[Megacherv]

Wait, aborting a foetus after the allowed period? Surely that's just medical malpracti-

*reads that he birthed and THEN killed them*

-...oh...right...

 

[Froggy Slayer]

Wait, so this isn't abortion at all. Misleading title is misleading. -_-

Well, it's a retroactive abortion.

I always thought that retroactive abortion was where you go back in time to kill either party that conceived the child in order to ensure that said child never existed.

OT: This is pretty bad. Really bad, actually.

 

[BNguyen]

snip

you know with all of your ranting you only helped prove my point that the majority of people are too stupid to take a little precaution and learn about something before doing it. You don't just go jump out of a plane to go skydiving without learning how best to land and use a parachute first (and no I've never been).
Yeah, shit happens but we can at least work so that it happens less often.
Yeah, people can do stupid things like get drunk and have wild sex without thinking of contraceptives, but don't just sit around and assume nothing happened - look into it before it goes too far.
That is the responsibility of an adult is to make sure they make up for anything stupid that they've done and not just sit on it and assume all is well because "hey I don't remember it happening therefore it must not have happened".
You know, even if a lot of people are poor and can't afford contraceptives, there is always the surefire way to prevent an unwanted pregnancy - KEEP YOUR FUCKING PANTS ON!
JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN HAVE SEX DOESN"T MEAN THAT YOU SHOULD!

And basically the gist that I got out of your post is that you seem to think the government needs to step up to provide for the idiots rather that getting the lazy parents of this generation to get up and teach.

And for the record, no I'm not white, no I'm not middle class (in fact I believe I'm closer to the lower rungs of what could be considered middle class), but I still went to school. I still learned what the consequences can be if you don't think with your head and instead think with your genitalia. My parents gave me an understanding about sex and I had to fill in the blanks to be sure because I'm not the kind of person who does something then thinks back upon it, I prefer to think first.
So, no, I don't think I'm acting privileged, I think I'm acting with at least a half-way decent brain on this matter. And if women are doing something they know they can prevent then I feel I have every right to tell them how I feel about what they are doing.
You I'm afraid do not seem to understand that we are in an age where more and more people have access to education, but you seem to think that these people should be free to avoid thinking and do these things anyways and that the government should fully support their actions.

Edit #(I don't care): my videogame tangent is very much applicable to the situation as it draws similarities - people don't want to take responsibility for their actions that shows that they might be at fault, so they find something easier to blame - it can be rape or oops we forgot to use contraceptives, the government didn't provide them for us freely - or in the case of videogames - hey we saw this person is a little disturbed and bullied, oops he comes to school, etc. and kills a lot of people - hey this kid played videogames, they must be responsible for his actions.
And I think I'll keep my holier than thou attitude because I haven't done something so stupid as to drastically change my life when I'm not ready to face it head on.
If fact, I've got to say that your post feels somewhat suspicious now that I think about it.

 

[Froggy Slayer]

Wait wait . You do realise that the women that wanted an abortion went there ? So they wanted the baby aborted . He just used questionable methods of getting it done . He's no monster , it's not like he did anything without the mothers consent .

They're both to blame. Sure, the mother wanted the child dead, but he still facilitated that. He could have reported this to someone, but instead he killed the children. The only ideals that he holds is greed.

 

[BNguyen]

snip

hey, thanks for the support on this matter - some people can just be so careless these days that it's amazing the First World is still the First World - especially when people think they can go around without thinking that what they're doing might be causing harm to others.

 

[Evil Smurf]

Shit, that's straight murder! Fucking bastard.
Do people not know how to use a condom?

 

[Colour Scientist]

Do people not know how to use a condom?

There are a million and one reasons why someone would seek an abortion. It's unfair to immediately demonize them or label them as stupid or careless by assuming that the reason was that they weren't bothered using a condom.

OP: I find it amazing that this guy was able to operate so long without so much as a routine inspection. It was supposed to be a medical clinic, how was it allowed to get to that state? I know the clinic was in a very poor area but it's a very depressing state of affairs when this was the only option available to these women.

 

[5mj7R7yf4Dwr3gdZyyu9PeGNwYjlNrjzuh3iTXQG]

I am against abortion after the first trimester. I want that out of the way before saying that the argument "if a woman wants an abortion we should provide it because she will get one anyway" is incredibly flawed. It is like saying if a rapist wants to rape someone they will do it anyway so we should make it safe an legal.

So you would oppose safely-rapeable sexbots the way we have safely-killable projections in computer games? If we could make rape somehow victimless, (and there are ways we already can and do) then there's no reason we should. I suspect that those who had the insight to choose to exercise their tendencies in a safe, victimless manner would do so. (Heck, with the availability of pornography via the internet, sex crime, including rape has already declined per capita).

As I age and find myself with a daughter of my own the entire abortion discussion really makes me physically ill. Again, I am ok with keeping 1st term abortions legal but see no reason that it should be legal beyond that point. I haven't always felt this way but I am to the point where I do not think I could be friends with an abortion doctor.

Perhaps you might want to read up on the circumstances that are typical of late-term abortions [http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com/Stories/Stories.aspx]before you judge the people who perform them, or the people who receive them. It's stereotypical how unempathetic the Pro-Life sector is, even those who get abortions themselves (about a third of all abortions in the US according to Guttmacher) and then happily claim that only their own abortion was moral and justifiable.

238U

 

[CountryMike]

Shit, that's straight murder! Fucking bastard.
Do people not know how to use a condom?

condoms aren't 100% safe. You can still get pregnant using a condom. Little chance, but possible

 

[5mj7R7yf4Dwr3gdZyyu9PeGNwYjlNrjzuh3iTXQG]

You know, even if a lot of people are poor and can't afford contraceptives, there is always the surefire way to prevent an unwanted pregnancy - KEEP YOUR FUCKING PANTS ON!
JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN HAVE SEX DOESN"T MEAN THAT YOU SHOULD!

Regardless of what MTV wants you to think sex is an ADULT RESPONSIBILITY not a hip way to pass the time, and certainly not a game. If you aren't prepared for the consequences, DON'T DO IT.

You know, all the people who could control their reproductive drive through sheer force of will died out before we assembled our first spear. Statistics show that humans get stupid when it comes to sexual encounters (even sans alcohol), no matter how icky or somehow wrong you guys might personally think it is. (Sexually active people statistically are healthier and live longer than those of you who aren't, so maybe it's your own sensibilities that are askew.) And in those regions in which abstinence is emphasized (the keep-your-legs-together approach) have (by magnitudes) worse unwanted-pregnancy and abortion rates than those areas that push for public sex education and responsible sexual activity. And while there are some excellent methods of birth control, none are perfect, and many are outlawed in the US because the religious right can't stand the idea of people having frivolous non-reproductive sex, and their lobbyists pressure the FDA to halt certification of countless contraceptives that are legal in Europe.

So this is a situation that guys like you helped create.

Keep in mind the pro-life community pushes for no support for single mothers. No support for public pre-natal care. No support for children, one of the most impoverished demographics in the US. An unwanted child lowers a single mother's chances of rising out of poverty to scant levels, and there is no advocacy by the pro-lifers to improve this. They put no effort into the development of either birth control or ectogenic incubation. They have no interest in improving our abysmal foster-care system or our byzantine adoption services. One might infer from such a narrow position they're less interested in protecting unborn life and more interested in punishing the mother for being a slut. In fact, I've heard more than once women who advocate birth control or abortion access of being called exactly that, or of encouraging promiscuity.

Eskimo women will leave an firstborn daughter out in the snow as a necessity of survival. Other cultures will kill baby daughters because women are regarded as obligations (say, if another dowry would impoverish the family) Outside the industrialized world, infanticide based on gender selection is rampant. I'm not saying that's the way it should be (quite the opposite). That's the way it is, unless we, like (say) Germany institute a shitload of state-supported programs to actually help single mothers raise children. Germany, as an example, has abortion access on demand, and the lowest rate of abortion in the world (including places where abortion is unlawful) because they treat single mothers and children like something better than rats.

Now granted, Gosnell's clinic is a last resort for women. Mothers don't typically wait until late-term if they're disinterested in having children, rather require a late term abortion if there is a complication that is detected late. Of those infants that Gosnell murdered with scissors, it hasn't been confirmed by anyone that any of them were healthy, or viable. We don't know the circumstances, and sometimes neonates are so badly deformed that they are better off stillborn (e.g. If a child is going to live his entire life of six years on life support and excruciating pain, is that a life you want to preserve? Something to ponder). Here in the US, we have very few doctors who perform late term abortions, especially now after Dr. George Tiller was gunned down in his church by a lone assassin, so we've set the stage for doctors like Gosnell to set up shop in back-alley clinics.

For the rest of women who detect pregnancy early, those who don't have access to a medical abortion will be referred by Google to the dozens of herbal emmenagogues that are available nationwide (many of which are ubiquitous as spices, teas and so on.) So we get to see women kill themselves with a pennyroyal overdose, or getting sick on too much mugwort or citric acid. The abortions are not going to stop because we criminalize the safe procedures. They're only going to become unsafe.

Get a fucking clue, guys.

238U

 

[jetriot]

So you would oppose safely-rapeable sexbots the way we have safely-killable projections in computer games? If we could make rape somehow victimless, (and there are ways we already can and do) then there's no reason we should. I suspect that those who had the insight to choose to exercise their tendencies in a safe, victimless manner would do so. (Heck, with the availability of pornography via the internet, sex crime, including rape has already declined per capita).

Perhaps you might want to read up on the circumstances that are typical of late-term abortions [http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com/Stories/Stories.aspx]before you judge the people who perform them, or the people who receive them. It's stereotypical how unempathetic the Pro-Life sector is, even those who get abortions themselves (about a third of all abortions in the US according to Guttmacher) and then happily claim that only their own abortion was moral and justifiable.

238U

Your analogy doesn't really fit because(for a pro-lifer) abortion isn't a victimless crime. I have no problem with video games or pornography. So my analogy still stands.

The hypocrisy of some on the pro-life side is not an argument for abortion, it is simply stating they are hypocrites. The reasons people get late term abortions(typically illegally) are also meaningless. If we are drawing a line in the sand and saying, hey the baby feels pain at this point, is aware of its existence and IS alive than the reasons for killing it can only be to save another life. There is no other reason. Many people have become far too flippant and casual with what was supposed to be 'safe but rare'.

I understand that everyone perceives life differently and the argument is entirely subjective and based upon when that life actually begins. I am not a religious man or what one stereotypes a pro-lifer to be. However, I(and most people) believe that a line must be drawn that says killing a baby after this point is murder. I personally believe that point to be after the first trimester and would have no problem prosecuting doctors and patients that have late term abortions for murder.

Because this debate relies entirely upon when life begins and it is entirely subjective, the debate can never be won with logic, science or better arguments. It is simply a perpetual argument. That said if I were to wrong I would rather be wrong as a pro-lifer than wrong as a pro-choicer.

 

[jetriot]

Oh the hypocrisy...

So, let me get this straight: killing the babies inside the womb is perfectly fine, but killing them minutes after the first attempt failed is inhuman? Paradox much?

Also, these children are not just unwanted, they're also underdeveloped (24 weeks are the legal maximum in the states) and have already survived one abortion attempt, so they're more than likely to have suffered serious injuries in the progress.

In the end we get an underdeveloped, injured and utterly unwanted lump of meat nobody wants and whose probably short, painful life would cost a fortune because somebody wants it to suffer as long as humanly possible.

Sorry, but that guy did the only right thing by putting an end to their misery. It might not seem favorable to self declared moral people, but there are worse fortunes than death.

Edit:

Read the article on another side before, it didn't say the babies are normally born before they get stabbed.

Still, I'm okay with this practice. Making it okay to kill them inside the womb and condemning it minutes after the left it is simply hypocrisy. That's like saying "running over a hobo with my car is okay when I close my eyes before I do it".

Late term or not, a baby gets killed in the process regardless. One either agrees with it or doesn't. Saying "I'm okay with abortion when..." is bullshit.

I for my part can't see anything wrong with what he's done. Those kids were unwanted and he put an end to their life, everything else is just details. The amount of passed weeks, morals and so on don't matter the slightest in the end. The kids would either have lived or died, there's nothing in between.

Also, ever seen a puplic orphanage from the inside?

The entire Middle East is unwanted. Lets just wipe it out. Those people have horrible lives. As a person that knows whats best for them and what is in the future for them I shall wipe them from existence with a few well placed nukes. Speaking of unwanted, black babies in urban centers also have shitty lives and are unwanted. Maybe Hitler had the right idea after all.

 

[Mike Fang]

The descriptions of the condition of this man's office, staff and the manner in which he performed his terminations is disgusting and awful, which seems to be a consensus. But consider this: what he was doing wouldn't be considered even half as terrible if his timing had been a bit sooner. It would have been considered sloppy and failing to meet health codes, but not as terrible as murdering babies; all just because of a time difference. Mull THAT over while trying to justify convenience termination: this guy would have been getting slapped on the wrist, maybe treated like a white collar criminal at most for failing to meet health standards, but for the sake of a few days. Instead, he's a baby murderer.

Just...think about that.

 

[Naeras]

Because this debate relies entirely upon when life begins and it is entirely subjective, the debate can never be won with logic, science or better arguments. It is simply a perpetual argument. That said if I were to wrong I would rather be wrong as a pro-lifer than wrong as a pro-choicer.

Actually, science can easily answer that.
"When life begins" is technically long before pregnancy, as both egg cells and sperm cells fulfill all the points necessary to be considered living long before any kind of pregnancy happens. A fetus isn't much different from those cells. That is, before week 12 of the pregnancy. After that is the nervous system is well enough developed for the fetus to have some kind of sentience, as well as feel pain. Which most likely is the reason why there are restrictions on abortions after week 12(at least here in Norway, dunno how it is where you come from).

My point? Before week 12, a fetus is quite simply a big, fancy biochemical reaction. They're on level with a bacteria, or a plant, or a tumor. They can't think or feel pain. Yes, it's life, but so were the cells that fused for form that fetus.

Which, incidentally, is why what this doctor did was not late term abortions.

 

[shintakie10]

Oh the hypocrisy...

So, let me get this straight: killing the babies inside the womb is perfectly fine, but killing them minutes after the first attempt failed is inhuman? Paradox much?

Also, these children are not just unwanted, they're also underdeveloped (24 weeks are the legal maximum in the states) and have already survived one abortion attempt, so they're more than likely to have suffered serious injuries in the progress.

In the end we get an underdeveloped, injured and utterly unwanted lump of meat nobody wants and whose probably short, painful life would cost a fortune because somebody wants it to suffer as long as humanly possible.

Sorry, but that guy did the only right thing by putting an end to their misery. It might not seem favorable to self declared moral people, but there are worse fortunes than death.

Edit:

Read the article on another side before, it didn't say the babies are normally born before they get stabbed.

Still, I'm okay with this practice. Making it okay to kill them inside the womb and condemning it minutes after the left it is simply hypocrisy. That's like saying "running over a hobo with my car is okay when I close my eyes before I do it".

Late term or not, a baby gets killed in the process regardless. One either agrees with it or doesn't. Saying "I'm okay with abortion when..." is bullshit.

I for my part can't see anything wrong with what he's done. Those kids were unwanted and he put an end to their life, everything else is just details. The amount of passed weeks, morals and so on don't matter the slightest in the end. The kids would either have lived or died, there's nothing in between.

Also, ever seen a puplic orphanage from the inside?

The entire Middle East is unwanted. Lets just wipe it out. Those people have horrible lives. As a person that knows whats best for them and what is in the future for them I shall wipe them from existence with a few well placed nukes. Speaking of unwanted, black babies in urban centers also have shitty lives and are unwanted. Maybe Hitler had the right idea after all.

What the flying fuck are you even talkin about?

There's a very very large difference between...whatever the fuck you're on about...and a child bein born that will die, will die very soon into its life before it even really understands much of anythin, and will die in horrible excruciatin pain.

People shouldn't be forced to live like that if they don't want to live like that. Children shouldn't be forced to live like that at all.