According to the bible, should Christians be involved in politics?

[Kwak]

The question was: "What does the bible say about abortion?"

Oh okay, in that context that would be logical then.
I just can't help that when people ask that question, my reflexive response is 'so what, why would anyone care?' To which I guess the answer would be in the question I asked you - ie, they literally believe it is a source of supernatural wisdom and rules on life which guides their moral and ethical stances. Which is just, eugh.

 

[SilentPony]

1) The bible says nothing about the woman being pregnant or not, only whether or not the woman is guilty.
2) The actual word in question, found here, does not explicitly refer to "womb"

So you're saying during a test of a woman fidelity, the test being if she's pregnant by another man than her husband, that...the woman doesn't need to be pregnant? Well fucking duh, the test is if she IS pregnant. And if she IS, then the results of the test if the death of the fetus, ie the purposeful miscarriage.
That's like arguing the woman doesn't need to be married - the fact they mentioned her husband should have been the hint. She is to drink a potion of dirty water mixed with sand and other stuff found on the floor. If she has remained faithful and is not pregnant, nothing happens. If she cheated and is pregnant it kills the baby, and then presumably the woman is killed for adultery. And its pretty clear that's what it says:
May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries

And again this is what I mean with the bible basically being useless. Every translation is different, every interpretation is different and every meaning is different. If a "Christian" wants to find a passage about downloading porn, Im sure there's a way to construe that.

 

[Houseman]

So you're saying during a test of a woman fidelity, the test being if she's pregnant by another man

I don't agree that the test is to see "if she's pregnant by another man", as the bible says nothing about pregnancy in these verses. Look back through the verses you've posted. Do you see anything there about pregnancy? I don't. That was point #1.

And its pretty clear that's what it says:
May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries

I already addressed that in point #2

 

[Dreiko]

(I will preface everything with saying I'm an agnostic so I have no stake at all in this.)


People are completely misunderstanding what Christianity is. Christianity is the thing that happens with Jesus (you know, christianity comes from the whole Christ thing), where we have this thing called the new testament, which basically retcons the old testament.

Stuff from "the bible" is not all equal, basically, because the bible includes both testaments. The old testament stuff (such as the abortion poison) is retconned as far as christians are concerned, it's not valid any more. No actual christian ought to adhere to this stuff. So it isn't inconsistent to ignore "the bible" as long as the part you ignore is in the old testament. Only jewish people care about that part of it any more.


Also, Hell is a later day catholic invention btw, it's not there in the original ancient greek script of the new testament. The original text just describes a state of oblivion where you dwell until you're purified of your sins for however long you need to do so based on how you lived and then also go to heaven. There's no just eternal punishment stuff.

 

[SilentPony]

I don't agree that the test is to see "if she's pregnant by another man", as the bible says nothing about pregnancy in these verses. Look back through the verses you've posted. Do you see anything there about pregnancy? I don't. That was point #1.



I already addressed that in point #2

Actually I just checked and yeah, in the King James version is does say thighs. But that's only one version, of thousands, and indeed the real trial, the Ordeal of the Bitter Water, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordeal_of_the_bitter_water, is seen by many scholars as a form of abortion and apparently in the Hebrew bible, "thigh" was often a euphemism of genitals, but they couldn't say those words.
So again, interpretation. Every version, edit and translation of every book of every version of the bible is different.

So any debate on whether the Bible allows for political action depends on A. what version of the bible, B. What translation, C. What edit, D. Publisher, E. Time/date, F. Religion, G. Orthodox of the Bible, all the way down to Z. Personal interpretation.

 

[Houseman]

But that's only one version

Here are some more

And there's also that concordance I linked to earlier, which shows the original word in question.

many scholars

And I'm sure there are also "many" that disagree that this is a form of abortion.

So any debate on whether the Bible allows for political action depends on A. what version of the bible, B. What translation, C. What edit, D. Publisher, E. Time/date, F. Religion, G. Orthodox of the Bible, all the way down to Z. Personal interpretation.

I'm aware, and willing to sort that out with the people that want to engage, which is why I made this topic.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

I think if churches are going to be involved in politics they should be involved all the way and pay taxes like everyone else. Can't say you're separate from that but then go endorsing candidates anyway

Honestly, I think they should be paying them anyways whether they're involved in politics or not, just like others.

 

[Silvanus]

The verses I posted make it clear that "the world" is evil and corrupting

Sounds like poor craftsmanship.

 

[Houseman]

Sounds like poor craftsmanship.

One of the verses I posted also makes it clear that "the whole world is under the control of the evil one ", so it's not that the world was "made wrong" or anything.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

How exactly do you define 'the world' in this, because if it's as broad as I'm used to then you're kind of already part of it no matter what

 

[Houseman]

How exactly do you define 'the world' in this, because if it's as broad as I'm used to then you're kind of already part of it no matter what

I believe that "the world" means all non-Christian human society, and yes, we are kind of already part of it. But we should try to remain as far apart from it as we reasonably can.

 

[Fieldy409]

Check out Romans 13.

Romans 13 NIV - Submission to Governing Authorities - Bible Gateway

It's kind of a conservative Christians nightmare chapter. It says whoever is in charge was put there by God so obey them and also to pay your taxes lol.

The whole book of Romans is probably worth reading up on regarding this topic. It's the book that convinced me that religion truly is just the tool of the state since it's laid out blatantly there.

 

[Silvanus]

One of the verses I posted also makes it clear that "the whole world is under the control of the evil one ", so it's not that the world was "made wrong" or anything.

Eh, an omniscient & omnipotent deity could've foreseen that & prevented it. So it's either a failure of forward planning or poor craftsmanship.

 

[dscross]

I don't think the bible deals with matters like that. It's more focused on stories about evil snakes, turning women into pillars of salt, the end of the world, human / animal sacrifices and rising from the dead.

Ultimately politics touches everything so sometimes the church is going to have opinions. I personally don't think religion should be involved in government affairs because it's got hardly anything to do with running a country and promotes zealots. We have enough crackpots involved in both politics and religion without mixing up the two things.

 

[Palindromemordnilap]

Honestly, I think they should be paying them anyways whether they're involved in politics or not, just like others.

I mean ideally, yes, but if they're going to play the "We should be kept out of normal mortal affairs so we shouldn't have to pay taxes" card you can't also then say "hey lets involve ourselves in normal mortal affairs and tell our followers to vote for the dude we like or else"

 

[Sneed's SeednFeed]

How exactly do you define 'the world' in this, because if it's as broad as I'm used to then you're kind of already part of it no matter what

'The world' is juxtaposed to 'heaven' in the sense that one represents the immediate material reality and the latter a spiritual location beyond material struggle (as is also discussed in the terms of messianism in Judaism). This is something that's been consistent from the old Testament to the New one. Effectively the point is to drive home that over-determining yourself with the immediate world is where the realm of sin and of devilry is rife to the ignorant or the self-assured. It's something that's up to interpretation and can mean a variety of things, which is why serious theologians are not the ones converting people in central Africa for easy money.

Personally I view it as the material reality being full of opportunities where one may sin or may surrender to materialism, as a sort of ideological analysis for greed, political ambition, lust for power, etc. 'The world (of things)' if you wish, is full of chances where if you ignore the spiritual or phenomenal aspects of daily life and existence (i.e. ignoring root causes, contradictions and emotional turmoil as just a part of life instead of confronting it positively through universal mercy and love), can lead people down a miserable path, though obviously this isn't their fault, much in the same way that mankind is redeemed by Jesus in the crucifixion. I think if we were to go down even further in this sentiment, then the chronology of the passage matters, since its a text that develops and negates itself constantly, so it has to be situated in contrast with an earlier or successive passage and in the wider context of the New Testament.

 

[CaitSeith]

Not sure we should care about what the bible says. I mean, the Church didn't care, as they were a pillar in the political world for thousands of years.

 

[Houseman]

Not sure we should care about what the bible says.

I guess that depends on who "we" are. Christians? Americans?

But "what does the bible say?" and "should we care what the bible says" are two different questions.

 

[CaitSeith]

I guess that depends on who "we" are. Christians? Americans?

But "what does the bible say?" and "should we care what the bible says" are two different questions.

Do you want an answer to "what does the bible say"? Go to Mass; that's what they are for. It's pointless to treat the bible as an objective text.

 

[Houseman]

Do you want an answer to "what does the bible say"? Go to Mass; that's what they are for. It's pointless to treat the bible as an objective text.

I'm asking here for the purpose of starting a discussion among forum members.