Activision Defends Oliver North in Black Ops 2

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Andy Chalk

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Nov 12, 2002
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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
And this is the issue. All that this issue shows is that you can commit the most terrible war crimes, and shit all over international agreements, and American corporations will reward you by making you a consultant on their news channels, and hiring you to advise their videogames. It makes a complete mockery of the idea that the people in charge of the military can be brought to justice, just like anyone else.
That's kind of my point - not that North was "right" or redeemed or anything, but that this isn't uncommon. Bad men are rewarded for bad deeds all the time. And bad men do bad things for what they perceive to be good reasons all the time. Justice is not blind. Eliot Spitzer leaps to mind; his crimes were nowhere near the magnitude of North's, but he was a hypocritical piece of shit of the worst kind, and it landed him a hot gig on CNN.

Justice is not blind.

I maintain that if we don't have a problem with Activision making videogames based on the real-life events of the "black ops world" of that era, then it's hypocritical to take offense when guys like North are involved in the process.

Oh, and as far as the 6 Days in Fallujah thing goes, it's based solely on the word of the dev, so take it for what it's worth:

http://www.gamepolitics.com/2009/04/14/insurgents-contributing-quotsix-days-fallujahquot-says-developer [http://www.gamepolitics.com/2009/04/14/insurgents-contributing-quotsix-days-fallujahquot-says-developer]
 

SecondPrize

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I bet activision respect his input because of the time he sold the explosives that killed 220 of his fellow marines in Beirut.
hmmm, probably some other reason.
 

Yureina

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May 6, 2010
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Wow.... the amount of hostility towards this is far from what I expected. But then again, I did a University Research project on the Iran-Contra Affair, and I ended up with quite a different perspective on Oliver North and his actions than what has been voiced here. Yes, what he did was illegal, but calling him a war criminal? That's going too far. North was a patriot who ended up being involved in dirty affairs at the behest of his political masters. Those people got in serious trouble for what they did, and rightly so. North might have gotten immunity, but he was also the man who was, in effect, the chief witness of the entire affair. His testimony helped bag the people responsible for that scandal.

Suffice to say, North is a controversial figure. As for Activision using him, let em. Iran-Contra was over a quarter century ago. Let this man live his life for goodness sakes.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Pretty close to my statements that turned into an insult fest towards me when I commented on Bob's rant. Albiet I think it's also important to note that "Black" Ops. are called that for a reason. Law is pretty much an illusion, countries that survive do whatever it takes to stay on top, those that don't wind up eventually be taken down. It sucks, but that's the way it is. Allowing yourself to be taken down due to rules or some agreement that involves you giving everything to someone else because of a loophole, or them not following the rules where you insist on doing so, is just plain stupid. Black Ops. exists by it's nature in the reality of people pretending laws matter, but in actuality the cold reality is that the most brutal bastards dominate, and everyone else gets exploited. You try and be nice, you get exploited by the bastards. Speak softly and carry a big stick, the Spec. Ops. community is the stck we hold behind our back, people know it's there, but we don't acknowlege that we whack people with it. Of course modern liberalism and detachment from reality has caused problems, leading to all the garbage we're seeing over Oliver North.

I will say that I can understand the point to an extent. With the left wing dominating the media, it does seem like most people hate everything Oli North stands for. That's not the truth, it's just a matter of who gets the platform. In general you don't hear anything nice about Fox news, unless it comes from Fox News, or another conservative platform. Polarization means that of course the left wing platforms, which are more numerous shout down the left wing, and with more of them they tend to mostly drown it out. The real numbers tend to come out around election times, where things are resolved by a few scant percentage points. Both sides would like to claim they have a majority, the left wing claims vocally that they have a clear majority, where the right wing on merits of controlling less media and having less platforms maintains claims of a "silent majority". In the end we pretty much have parity, with that tiny percentage which gives a lead (which can manifest as a bigger control in the actual goverment than it should have in absolute terms, due to our system being pretty much 'all or nothing' in many regards) waffling back and forth. Bush wins by a hair, Obama comesin and wins by a hair (reported at the best as 7% but some critics of the media have said it could have been as low as .5% as the other extreme, ignoring wingnuts who claim doubt digit differances in either direction, like the whole right wing "Obama stole the country by cheating" crowd which is just as crazy as the left wing guys who claimed it of Bush).

To get to the point before people pig pile on me and start screaming how ignorant I am and all that jazx, but bottom line is that while the media is the wrong arena to actually argue the point, Oliver north is polarizing. A clear majority of gamers don't oppose the guy or even really hate Fox News, or any of that other garbage, it's just that those who are vocal on specialized message boards and such do. Gaming isn't really a hobbby dominated by one side or the other at the user level, and Oli is a good spokesman to a lot of people given the subject. Activision seems to know that, but also knows it needs damage control in the left wing dominated media.

I will say that I think game DEVELOPMENT is dominated by the left wing though, I don't think I've ever seen a decent AAA game made that actually promoted a more right wing morality and philsophy. Or at least not one from the US. I've seen criticisms of games being that, for not being quite left wing enough, but none that I considered to actually be on the right wing. For all of the comments about "American Military Porn" pretty much every game of the sort has elements that I think derail it from actually being right wing. The whole "nuke death" scene in modern warfare, and even the infamous "No Russian" mission , not to mention the little girl dying in a bomb, all sort contribute to games about the military and warfare actually conveying very strong anti right wing, anti-militant messages. While sometimes it falls flat half of these games nowadays seem to be intended to get you to think about what your actually doing (or have done up until that point) as opposed to a straightforward "America is good, we are destroying the bad guys, and the military is how we get the job done". While rarely discussed the left wing gets that, and it's how it's believers justify to themselves playing these games doubtlessly. Someone like Oliver North gives more of a "this is for the greater good, and how it's done" vibe to a game, as his biggest real "crime" was being caught, and nearly everyone involved in that was vindicated to an extent through pardons and the like, and that small differance in tone is enough to cause left wing outrage. I mean how dare the US promote it's personal interests through violence, and in any way act like it might be justified at least internally?
 

Andy Chalk

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Nov 12, 2002
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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
I refuse to buy this game, simply because the thought of my money in any way being used by Activision to support the man responsible for the Iran-Contra affair makes my blood boil. That't not hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is when a country claims to follow international law, only to fail to adequately bring those who break it to justice.
I get what you're saying, but at the risk of sounding flippant (which is not at all my intent), I find myself unable to get too angry over it when things like this already exist:

http://www.amazon.com/Blackwater-microsoft-xbox-360/dp/B005EZ5GUU/ref=sr_1_1?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1337977411&sr=1-1 [http://www.amazon.com/Blackwater-microsoft-xbox-360/dp/B005EZ5GUU/ref=sr_1_1?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1337977411&sr=1-1]
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:

Seriously though?

"Law is pretty much an illusion"

"With the left wing dominating the media"

"I will say that I think game DEVELOPMENT is dominated by the left wing though, I don't think I've ever seen a decent AAA game made that actually promoted a more right wing morality and philsophy"

This is all comedy gold, man. I mean, game developers being dominated by the left wing? You do know that the games industry is one of the last industries to not have any form of Union, right?

Apart from that, your post is pretty much the usual right-wing mix of hyperbole and fantasy. Entertaining to read, but it scares the shit out of me that guys like you are currently running the world.
You know what scares me. That people like you are incapable of even considering the other side at all, and immediatly jump to insults and attacks on anyone you happen to disagree with politically, while feeling it's entirely justified. You seem to entirely miss the irony in accusing someone of ridiculous extremism, while at the same time dismissing everything they say out of hand because of a belief you are un-questioningly right, and being insulting about it to boot. Then of course people wonder why the country is such a polarized mess.

Now, let me save you the time, the usual move at this point on these forums to such a blanket statement is to make some absrdist comment about being justified due to the other side making arguements akin to Obama riding unicorns and zapping people with eye lasers (or whatever tickles your fancy), which actually just continues to make the point of you being as bad, or even worse, than the people you claim to oppose.

The very defense of criticizing my statements being based on the same kind of ignorance, as things like "there is no left wing media bias" is justified by the defense that the media is telling the truth, so it's not biased. Anyone who disagrees with these things is inherantly wrong, and not even worth considering.

That's really scary, and I hope one day you see it.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Why the hell do they even need consultants? I mean they pretty much just pull crap out of their asses and add explosions for the cod games.
 

Rooster Cogburn

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I passionately disagree with this defense of a man who is a criminal and a traitor. It is true that governments are havens for crooks and profiteers, and it may even be there is nothing we can do about it. What we can do is not provide social sanction and respectability to criminals. If we cannot wipe his kind from the face of the earth we should shame them off it. Even criminals like Dick Cheney are granted the respectability and social sanction of 'political controversy', rather than being damned to the public as the criminals they are. I can't stand to watch them sneer through interviews where they are treated like controversial figures and not the worst kind of slime. It is the face of a man who knows he has done wrong and is content. It is disgusting. It has to stop.

Complicity in treason, rape, murder, pillage and torture are his crimes. Allowing him to show his face in polite society is ours.

Fuck you Activision. Just fuck you.
 

Frostbite3789

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Andy Chalk said:
But isn't that exactly what what Atomic did with Six Days in Fallujah - which many gamers defended against the backlash from "outside the community?"
The thing is after the Nuke level which was actually...genuine in CoD4, this has become the thing for the CoD series. Stir up controversy. Shoot up an airport. Watch a family die. Torture a dude. This time they aren't waiting for the game to even start for it though.
 

Frostbite3789

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Worgen said:
Why the hell do they even need consultants? I mean they pretty much just pull crap out of their asses and add explosions for the cod games.
How much can this many consult about a game in the near future that deals with a robot army and fighting while on horseback?

I mean, maybe I'm completely uninformed about the Iran/Contra Affair, but I feel like North isn't exactly qualified to consult on unmanned armies. Maybe he's consulting on how nefarious the guy who hands the bad guys the figurative keys that are mentioned in the trailer?
 

Worgen

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Frostbite3789 said:
Worgen said:
Why the hell do they even need consultants? I mean they pretty much just pull crap out of their asses and add explosions for the cod games.
How much can this many consult about a game in the near future that deals with a robot army and fighting while on horseback?

I mean, maybe I'm completely uninformed about the Iran/Contra Affair, but I feel like North isn't exactly qualified to consult on unmanned armies. Maybe he's consulting on how nefarious the guy who hands the bad guys the figurative keys that are mentioned in the trailer?
That would be pretty good if it turned out he was consulting for the bad guys you were fighting in it. They would be oli north robots or something... maybe with human emotions and they bleed. So they can beg for their lives, their robot lives.
 

Hazy992

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Andy Chalk said:
We're trying to make a piece of art
Andy Chalk said:
a piece of art
Andy Chalk said:


Oh wow that's a good one, Treyarch! Really! You guys crack me up!

OT: Yeah it was short-sighted as it sends out the wrong political message, but I think that's all it is; short-sighted. They probably didn't think it'd stir up as much controversy as it actually did.
 

Hazy992

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Frostbite3789 said:
Worgen said:
Why the hell do they even need consultants? I mean they pretty much just pull crap out of their asses and add explosions for the cod games.
How much can this many consult about a game in the near future that deals with a robot army and fighting while on horseback?

I mean, maybe I'm completely uninformed about the Iran/Contra Affair, but I feel like North isn't exactly qualified to consult on unmanned armies. Maybe he's consulting on how nefarious the guy who hands the bad guys the figurative keys that are mentioned in the trailer?
Some of the game is set during the 80's so he might be consulting on that?
 

Loonerinoes

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I can't help but think: "Why him?" I mean...I am 100% certain that there are other, less well-known, black ops people they could talk to and use their expertise instead of North's. And let's be clear - these other people would be just as bad as North if not worse - the reason why they're called 'Black Ops' is precisely BECAUSE they are technically illegal. Not to say that I don't agree with Andy's perspective, still when it comes to matters of law one does still need to follow its letter while not following its spirit to at least *appear* legitimate and thus avoid getting nailed. Black Ops, however, by definition break those laws and do the stuff that the country in question shouldn't solely for its own benefit. So it's no surprise that Oliver North took the fall for the rest of the administration since he was moreso directly involved...not that it mattered - he still got acquitted. :p

But my point was - they could've used any other less known person than him. Because if it's just a matter of expertise being relayed towards the creation of a fictional game...what does it really matter if you talk to North or someome else who did that actual work. Even moreso, North with his moreso 'superstar status' probably charged Activision more for his appearance. So why not go to a less-known black ops expert to back the game's writing up who would probably also charge Activision less for the priviledge?

Unless of course...you're actually *hoping* to stir up controvesy by having such a 'superstar status' polarizing figure appear on your game's ads. To me that's pretty much what this is. And I'd actually agree with Andy that the only difference is that he got caught, but as to the question of why he specifically is being used well heh...it's an old marketing strategy really.

And I daresay it's working beautifully considering all the press coverage they're getting because of this controvesy.
 

TotalerKrieger

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They should make a game about Major General Smedley Butler next. Each mission could feature a new locale as you progess through his impressive, if extremely mercenary, military career. The final mission could allow the player to choose whether to be a "patriot" and command the forces of the Business Plot or be a no-good commie and blow the whistle on the whole operation.

Dear Activision/Teyarch, you are a bunch of talentless attention-whores.
 

Chairman Miaow

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I would be fine with this if ya'know, CoD really had artistic merit, and they weren't just going "ART! Our games need to be realistic and accurate despite the fact we've never given a shit about it before."

As it is, they have no need to hire him.
 

Angry_squirrel

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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Nope. His real crime was selling weapons to the Ayotollah, despite their being an embargo at the time with Iran (thus breaking international law), to fund drug-smuggling, torturing, raping, murdering rebels in Nicuragua. According to Sen. John Kerry, there's evidence to suggest that North got the US actively involved in the Contra's drug smuggling schemes. At the very least, it was his funding that allowed them to go round burning down villages, raping women and children, killing innocent civilians, and capturing and torturing whoever they felt like.

This is no different than if Dice, ahead of their next Battlefield game, were to go "We really wanted to know what the experience of fighting insurgents is like in Afghanistan... so we invited several key members of the Taliban to come and advise us on what sort of missions they do, insurgency tactics, etc."

North is a criminal. He was tried for war crimes. The only reason he wasn't convicted was because of a ridiculous plea-bargain he made beforehand that meant the US could bring him to trial, so long as they didn't convict him. Fuck him, and fuck Activision for supporting him in any way. Black Ops is not such a true-to-life game that the developers need to consult war criminals to get the campaign right.
I would go off on a rant about this, but this post puts it better than I ever could.
 

Aeonknight

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This may be completely off topic, but it needs to be said.

Does anyone remember the days when the choice to buy/not buy a game wasn't a political statement?
 

idarkphoenixi

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It's pretty obvious why they did this. They cannot make a single call of duty game ever since MW1 without having controversy. It's really kind of childish on what they'll do to get attention (MW3 having some American child die in an explosion)

Yeah, he's a war criminal and a lot of people know that now. Which is what Activision was counting on.

Honestly I don't like that they used Oliver North like it was nothing. He's a damn criminal and deserves to be serving life for what he did. But I won't go making a huge deal out of it and I won't go signing any petitions and I won't be adding my voice to any boycott movements. Why? Because that's exactly what Activision want you do to!

Don't fuel the fires guys. Just voice your opinion and move on. Theres nothing you can do about this.