Activision Defends Oliver North in Black Ops 2

Gilhelmi

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Oct 22, 2009
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Aiddon said:
Activision are still idiots for using the guy though; there are TONS of special ops they could have consulted, but instead they bring on THIS whackjob? They're just using North to get attention, like a child who draws graffiti on the wallpaper.
OK, I will tell you the truth.

You know SEAL team 6, the ones that put the bullets in Bin Laden, they have probably done similar things to what Lt. Col. North 'allegedly' done. He 'may have' lead a similar team. He is by no means a whackjob as he was 'probably' following the orders of his Commanding General (who was 'probably' following the orders of the President).

If you call Mr. North a whackjob, you call 90% of special forces that.

As too everyone else, I think I counted 3 people who 'know' (or as much as the public will 'know' for the next 50 years anyway) what happened back in the 80s. I am not counting wiki quick studies, mostly.

Note all the '' marks it is 'difficult' too know what really happens.

It is difficult for me to say, absolutely, that they were wrong. They were trying to rescue people. but then again the Nicaragua connection does not help their case.

As for the anti-Fox news bit, that part is probably true. Lets face it 80% of y'all are left-wingers who blindly believe the hype from MSNBC and other media telling you that the conservative are crazy. Personally, I believe both sides are equally crazy.
 

Gilhelmi

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Oct 22, 2009
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Mysterious Druid said:
Scrumpmonkey said:
Maybe this clears things up a bit :p

That's where I first heard of the guy.

Don't look at me like that.
Actually that is not too bad, lets face it, I was in diapers and peeing on people changing me. Were you even born yet? Most of the kids here were not. Though, that video does sum it up (mostly left leaning but I am coming to terms with that).
 

Adam Jensen_v1legacy

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Was anyone even attacking their decision to use that guy, or are they "defending it" in order to spark controversy where there is none?
 

WouldYouKindly

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Now I don't like Oliver North, but they are right. There really aren't a lot of people who would know more about black operations than him... and is actually allowed to talk about it.
 

Woodsey

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Andy Chalk said:
I maintain that if we don't have a problem with Activision making videogames based on the real-life events of the "black ops world" of that era, then it's hypocritical to take offense when guys like North are involved in the process.
There's "involved in the process", and then there's physically sticking him in the ad campaign. At the very least, it's a monumentally stupid piece of marketing.

And really, we've all played Call of Duty at some point, how much do they actual need a consultant, especially one of this magnitude? They're not striving for realism, that's for sure. He's a marketing tool, that should be evident to absolutely everyone, and that's in pretty poor taste.
 

Shamanic Rhythm

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Here are my thoughts:

a) The idea of Activision or Treyarch doing any kind of research is laughable at best. Black Ops is riddled all kinds of historical errors that are obviously propping up the conspiracy laden plot; and if they had studied any European history at all from any historical period ever, they would have known that it was logistically implausible in MW3 to have Russia invade every major European power within days, not least after having just pulled out of a massive war with the USA.

b) Black Ops 2 isn't even set in the period of the Contras: in fact it's set in the fucking future. You have the full license of speculative fiction to make up whatever crap you like about how people conduct clandestine operations in a hypothetical scenario, so you choose to pay more money than you need to to get 'expert' advice? That's like hiring Noam Chomsky to help you write a new language for a D&D game: just because he's the world's most famous linguist doesn't mean it's money well spent when you could literally just make up any crap and no one would care otherwise.

c) Activision's record of attracting controversy which serves as free marketing is against them on this one. I think five times is more than enough to qualify as a pattern.

d) Having said all that, Activision aren't the first people to make money off North: that dubious title is held by the producers of JAG, not to mention the publishers of all of North's books.
 

Gilhelmi

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Oct 22, 2009
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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Gilhelmi said:
Aiddon said:
Activision are still idiots for using the guy though; there are TONS of special ops they could have consulted, but instead they bring on THIS whackjob? They're just using North to get attention, like a child who draws graffiti on the wallpaper.
OK, I will tell you the truth.

You know SEAL team 6, the ones that put the bullets in Bin Laden, they have probably done similar things to what Lt. Col. North 'allegedly' done. He 'may have' lead a similar team. He is by no means a whackjob as he was 'probably' following the orders of his Commanding General (who was 'probably' following the orders of the President).
No.

Sorry, but no. Not gonna let that one slide.

There is a difference between a SEAL team carrying out a clandestine hit against a terrorist leader (while somehow managing to trash a helicopter), and an administration supporting the selling of missiles to Iran, going against Congress and breaking international law in doing so, in order to fund an entire guerilla movement that was killing and raping people across an entire country, and using their resources for cocaine trafficking.

The former is a designated operation against a single target. The latter is the political manipulation of an entire country, resulting in rape, torture, forced conscription, murder, and genocide. If you can't see the difference between clandestine assassinations and allowing an entire country to be ground under your heel for political purposes, then I'm sorry, but your opinion counts for very little.
But do you think that mission is the Only mission they have done? I agree, Bin laden getting a few new holes was a good thing and not really comparable to the Contra stuff.

But, the special forces do alot of mission and 90% are for good, like axing bin laden. But there is that 10% (all estimates, since we will not truly know the numbers in our lifetime, maybe never) where the shades of grey come into play. The missions where, if you are caught, even though the President gave the Order, the CIA is in charge mainly to take the blame (plausible dependability). It was glossed over but, even in the Bin Laden mission, If things went wrong, the CIA was in charge and going to take the blame. Yes, the CIA agreed to this and knew they would be completely blamed if it turned out too be the wrong guy or Pakistan caught our SEAL team on the way out (ether by shooting down the Helo or showing up with the military) or any number of ways that the mission could end badly, then the plan was for President Obama to say "I knew nothing it is the CIAs fault". The best/worst part is that EVERY President for at least the last 60 years have pulled that type of crap.
 

Gilhelmi

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Oct 22, 2009
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Therumancer said:
Pretty close to my statements that turned into an insult fest towards me when I commented on Bob's rant. Albiet I think it's also important to note that "Black" Ops. are called that for a reason. Law is pretty much an illusion, countries that survive do whatever it takes to stay on top, those that don't wind up eventually be taken down. It sucks, but that's the way it is. Allowing yourself to be taken down due to rules or some agreement that involves you giving everything to someone else because of a loophole, or them not following the rules where you insist on doing so, is just plain stupid. Black Ops. exists by it's nature in the reality of people pretending laws matter, but in actuality the cold reality is that the most brutal bastards dominate, and everyone else gets exploited. You try and be nice, you get exploited by the bastards. Speak softly and carry a big stick, the Spec. Ops. community is the stck we hold behind our back, people know it's there, but we don't acknowlege that we whack people with it. Of course modern liberalism and detachment from reality has caused problems, leading to all the garbage we're seeing over Oliver North.

I will say that I can understand the point to an extent. With the left wing dominating the media, it does seem like most people hate everything Oli North stands for. That's not the truth, it's just a matter of who gets the platform. In general you don't hear anything nice about Fox news, unless it comes from Fox News, or another conservative platform. Polarization means that of course the left wing platforms, which are more numerous shout down the left wing, and with more of them they tend to mostly drown it out. The real numbers tend to come out around election times, where things are resolved by a few scant percentage points. Both sides would like to claim they have a majority, the left wing claims vocally that they have a clear majority, where the right wing on merits of controlling less media and having less platforms maintains claims of a "silent majority". In the end we pretty much have parity, with that tiny percentage which gives a lead (which can manifest as a bigger control in the actual goverment than it should have in absolute terms, due to our system being pretty much 'all or nothing' in many regards) waffling back and forth. Bush wins by a hair, Obama comesin and wins by a hair (reported at the best as 7% but some critics of the media have said it could have been as low as .5% as the other extreme, ignoring wingnuts who claim doubt digit differances in either direction, like the whole right wing "Obama stole the country by cheating" crowd which is just as crazy as the left wing guys who claimed it of Bush).

To get to the point before people pig pile on me and start screaming how ignorant I am and all that jazx, but bottom line is that while the media is the wrong arena to actually argue the point, Oliver north is polarizing. A clear majority of gamers don't oppose the guy or even really hate Fox News, or any of that other garbage, it's just that those who are vocal on specialized message boards and such do. Gaming isn't really a hobbby dominated by one side or the other at the user level, and Oli is a good spokesman to a lot of people given the subject. Activision seems to know that, but also knows it needs damage control in the left wing dominated media.

I will say that I think game DEVELOPMENT is dominated by the left wing though, I don't think I've ever seen a decent AAA game made that actually promoted a more right wing morality and philsophy. Or at least not one from the US. I've seen criticisms of games being that, for not being quite left wing enough, but none that I considered to actually be on the right wing. For all of the comments about "American Military Porn" pretty much every game of the sort has elements that I think derail it from actually being right wing. The whole "nuke death" scene in modern warfare, and even the infamous "No Russian" mission , not to mention the little girl dying in a bomb, all sort contribute to games about the military and warfare actually conveying very strong anti right wing, anti-militant messages. While sometimes it falls flat half of these games nowadays seem to be intended to get you to think about what your actually doing (or have done up until that point) as opposed to a straightforward "America is good, we are destroying the bad guys, and the military is how we get the job done". While rarely discussed the left wing gets that, and it's how it's believers justify to themselves playing these games doubtlessly. Someone like Oliver North gives more of a "this is for the greater good, and how it's done" vibe to a game, as his biggest real "crime" was being caught, and nearly everyone involved in that was vindicated to an extent through pardons and the like, and that small differance in tone is enough to cause left wing outrage. I mean how dare the US promote it's personal interests through violence, and in any way act like it might be justified at least internally?
WOW, You summed up by feelings perfectly. Brilliant post, Thank You.
 

Vrach

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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Andy Chalk said:
I would have to agree. North may or may not have broken a whole pile of laws, but his real crime was simply that he got caught.

Nope. His real crime was selling weapons to the Ayotollah, despite their being an embargo at the time with Iran (thus breaking international law), to fund drug-smuggling, torturing, raping, murdering rebels in Nicuragua. According to Sen. John Kerry, there's evidence to suggest that North got the US actively involved in the Contra's drug smuggling schemes. At the very least, it was his funding that allowed them to go round burning down villages, raping women and children, killing innocent civilians, and capturing and torturing whoever they felt like.

This is no different than if Dice, ahead of their next Battlefield game, were to go "We really wanted to know what the experience of fighting insurgents is like in Afghanistan... so we invited several key members of the Taliban to come and advise us on what sort of missions they do, insurgency tactics, etc."

North is a criminal. He was tried for war crimes. The only reason he wasn't convicted was because of a ridiculous plea-bargain he made beforehand that meant the US could bring him to trial, so long as they didn't convict him. Fuck him, and fuck Activision for supporting him in any way. Black Ops is not such a true-to-life game that the developers need to consult war criminals to get the campaign right.
Ok, lemme preface this with a very honest "I've no real knowledge of the subject", but based on what's in the OP (ie. Andy's logic, as presented) and what you've said, fully, 100% agreed.
 

Gilhelmi

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Oct 22, 2009
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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Gilhelmi said:
But do you think that mission is the Only mission they have done? I agree, Bin laden getting a few new holes was a good thing and not really comparable to the Contra stuff.

But, the special forces do alot of mission and 90% are for good, like axing bin laden. But there is that 10% (all estimates, since we will not truly know the numbers in our lifetime, maybe never) where the shades of grey come into play. The missions where, if you are caught, even though the President gave the Order, the CIA is in charge mainly to take the blame (plausible dependability). It was glossed over but, even in the Bin Laden mission, If things went wrong, the CIA was in charge and going to take the blame. Yes, the CIA agreed to this and knew they would be completely blamed if it turned out too be the wrong guy or Pakistan caught our SEAL team on the way out (ether by shooting down the Helo or showing up with the military) or any number of ways that the mission could end badly, then the plan was for President Obama to say "I knew nothing it is the CIAs fault". The best/worst part is that EVERY President for at least the last 60 years have pulled that type of crap.
Sorry, where the fuck do shades of grey come in on the matter of selling missiles to Iran to fund murderous cocaine smugglers in Nicaragua?

I'm serious on this, where the hell is the grey in that? Because while I know governments do sneaky shit all the time, funding the Contras does not fall into 'grey' territory, it falls into black-and-white, damn stupid, should bloody well know better territory. I don't care how much of a hard Reagan had for fighting the Communists, you do not go around selling missiles to extremists and funding drug traffickers. The minute you do, you have lost any right to call yourself a nation that stands for any justice and humanity.

This is not an issue of 'shades of grey'. This is an issue of a war criminal being let off scott-free, and being allowed to shill for a videogame publisher when he should be rotting in a prison cell somewhere.
IF I recall correctly, Part of the selling the missiles were too try and free American hostages. In Regan's mind the Drug Dealer were better then the commie hoards (that commie hoards part was me being sarcastic of Regan's America). Just remember that none of us know the whole story as to what happened during the whole incident.
 

Scott Mozzo

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This is ridiculous. Does this mean that Benedict Arnold, America's greatest general during the Revolutionary War should have been in Assassin's Creed III? The man committed treason, period. His "masters" were all pardoned by the President responsible for it!!!!! No one saw any real time. He is considered a traitor because he is on Fox News. NO!!!! He is a traitor because he committed high crimes against our NATION! Does anyone over the age of 25, remember who he collaborated with? IRAN!!!!! The same country that ended Carter's administration (rightfully so, by the way), but was A OK for a republican president to AID!!!!!!!! RIDICULOUS!!!!
 

J Tyran

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Ragsnstitches said:
Also going to quote this cause it's just fucking retarded

"I don't want to worry about a guy who wants to hijack a plane, I want to worry about the guy who hijacks ALL the planes"

-Oliver North, Black Ops 2 teaser trailer.
Why is that retarded? Stopping the masterminds and leaders of a terrorist group is more important. You need to stop the foot soldiers and facilitators but thats not the job of the best of the wetwork and intelligence operatives, there are other agencies that do that.
 

Ragsnstitches

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Scott Mozzo said:
This is ridiculous. Does this mean that Benedict Arnold, America's greatest general during the Revolutionary War should have been in Assassin's Creed III? The man committed treason, period. His "masters" were all pardoned by the President responsible for it!!!!! No one saw any real time. He is considered a traitor because he is on Fox News. NO!!!! He is a traitor because he committed high crimes against our NATION! Does anyone over the age of 25, remember who he collaborated with? IRAN!!!!! The same country that ended Carter's administration (rightfully so, by the way), but was A OK for a republican president to AID!!!!!!!! RIDICULOUS!!!!
J Tyran said:
Ragsnstitches said:
Also going to quote this cause it's just fucking retarded

"I don't want to worry about a guy who wants to hijack a plane, I want to worry about the guy who hijacks ALL the planes"

-Oliver North, Black Ops 2 teaser trailer.
Why is that retarded? Stopping the masterminds and leaders of a terrorist group is more important. You need to stop the foot soldiers and facilitators but thats not the job of the best of the wetwork and intelligence operatives, there are other agencies that do that.
Why the fuck are you 2 necroing this thread? This topic died in May.

And J, that line I quoted was part of the hype machine for Blops 2 and the whole "cyber terrorists attacking america" shtick. The quote isn't about cutting off the serpents head, so to speak, but rather a monumentally misguided view on how Cyber Terrorism works. Fear induced stupidity.

I don't take anything he says seriously, but more importantly, this was a quote that he made for an ad for a video game. Acti new what they were doing picking him for the Ad... nothing like a bit of controversy to sell a game (getting an accused and convicted war criminal to pioneer your game is ballsy at least).

It's one thing to use him as a consultant, but they made stride to associate their product with the good ol' patriot olly.

God Bless America and all that faff.
 

J Tyran

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Ragsnstitches said:
Scott Mozzo said:
This is ridiculous. Does this mean that Benedict Arnold, America's greatest general during the Revolutionary War should have been in Assassin's Creed III? The man committed treason, period. His "masters" were all pardoned by the President responsible for it!!!!! No one saw any real time. He is considered a traitor because he is on Fox News. NO!!!! He is a traitor because he committed high crimes against our NATION! Does anyone over the age of 25, remember who he collaborated with? IRAN!!!!! The same country that ended Carter's administration (rightfully so, by the way), but was A OK for a republican president to AID!!!!!!!! RIDICULOUS!!!!
J Tyran said:
Ragsnstitches said:
Also going to quote this cause it's just fucking retarded

"I don't want to worry about a guy who wants to hijack a plane, I want to worry about the guy who hijacks ALL the planes"

-Oliver North, Black Ops 2 teaser trailer.
Why is that retarded? Stopping the masterminds and leaders of a terrorist group is more important. You need to stop the foot soldiers and facilitators but thats not the job of the best of the wetwork and intelligence operatives, there are other agencies that do that.
Why the fuck are you 2 necroing this thread? This topic died in May.

And J, that line I quoted was part of the hype machine for Blops 2 and the whole "cyber terrorists attacking america" shtick. The quote isn't about cutting off the serpents head, so to speak, but rather a monumentally misguided view on how Cyber Terrorism works. Fear induced stupidity.

I don't take anything he says seriously, but more importantly, this was a quote that he made for an ad for a video game. Acti new what they were doing picking him for the Ad... nothing like a bit of controversy to sell a game (getting an accused and convicted war criminal to pioneer your game is ballsy at least).

It's one thing to use him as a consultant, but they made stride to associate their product with the good ol' patriot olly.

God Bless America and all that faff.
I posted because it was on the front page and noticed it. Using Oliver North to promote the game is a bit tasteless though I didn't know that because I have not followed BLOPS II, still not taking anything he says seriously is misguided. He was a very influential man, for wrong reasons but his actions are still shaping the world today. Oliver North is the type of man everyone should take seriously.