Adult games.

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

(and also does have rape in it as well, if that matters to you).

Spoilers! X.x

Content warning. Spoilers would be telling someone who, when, and why. [EDIT: And it's a fucked up Lovecraftian horror game, so you mileage may vary. Saying "it has rape in it" is selling Saya fantastically short]

Content warnings aren't exempt from containing spoilers. For example, if you say "in this game a young boy is killed by this violent method" and there's only a single young boy in the entire cast of chars, you now spoiled that this char's gonna die.

I think saying that the game is an adult game in the horror genre is sufficient enough of a content warning.

 

[StatusNil]

Status Nil seems to think that if somebody routinely bashes bad representation or poor writing or what have you in games with a sexual bent, that means it's somehow a double standard if they have anything nice to say about a different game with the same broad (broad) themes.

Not quite, but please don't be discouraged. The subtle arguments Trained Cultural Critics like Professor Nil make often take years of deep immersion in theory to fully appreciate. In this case, an informed reading would probably be something along these lines:

"If some (busy)bodies routinely make a show of condemning the alleged misogyny of various popular culture artifacts based on the supposed harm created by the exposure of the general populace to representations they contain, it is somewhat suspect when they fail to apply the same standard of harm to more explicitly problematic tropes, such as the notorious "Not If they enjoyed it" Rationalization [footnote] http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NotIfTheyEnjoyedItRationalization[/footnote], specifically in works created by personal friends. Some would even suspect the simultaneous operation of multiple standards in the ongoing work of such critics."

This at any rate is my understanding. Nil's work remains opaque and challenging.

Or he might be suspicious of his motives, since Grayson, paragon of journalistic ethics that he is, has been known for "having anything nice" to say about games made by personal friends and/or lovers without feeling the need to let his readers be aware of said relationships.

Some do get it, though.

 

[crypticracer]

Status Nil seems to think that if somebody routinely bashes bad representation or poor writing or what have you in games with a sexual bent, that means it's somehow a double standard if they have anything nice to say about a different game with the same broad (broad) themes.

Not quite, but please don't be discouraged. The subtle arguments Trained Cultural Critics like Professor Nil make often take years of deep immersion in theory to fully appreciate. In this case, an informed reading would probably be something along these lines:

"If some (busy)bodies routinely make a show of condemning the alleged misogyny of various popular culture artifacts based on the supposed harm created by the exposure of the general populace to representations they contain, it is somewhat suspect when they fail to apply the same standard of harm to more explicitly problematic tropes, such as the notorious "Not If they enjoyed it" Rationalization [footnote] http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NotIfTheyEnjoyedItRationalization[/footnote], specifically in works created by personal friends. Some would even suspect the simultaneous operation of multiple standards in the ongoing work of such critics."

This at any rate is my understanding. Nil's work remains opaque and challenging.

Or he might be suspicious of his motives, since Grayson, paragon of journalistic ethics that he is, has been known for "having anything nice" to say about games made by personal friends and/or lovers without feeling the need to let his readers be aware of said relationships.

Some do get it, though.

For fuck's sake. It's been three years, everyone else moved on. I forgot he even existed until you brought him up in this thread. Your Hate obsession colors everything you have said. While theoretically adjacent to the op, it is all obviously an attempt to derail the topic to focus on, what? Your misunderstanding of hypocrisy, sexism and journalism?

Onto the topic. I imagine rape is so common because it is the laziest and easiest way to create conflict in your sex game. It could also just be misogyny or sexism, or sadism.

Domination is a very specific thing. And of the examples of rape in these kind of games, there are not that many that suggest the creator understands or cares about bdsm.

 

[StatusNil]

For fuck's sake. It's been three years, everyone else moved on. I forgot he even existed until you brought him up in this thread. Your Hate obsession colors everything you have said. While theoretically adjacent to the op, it is all obviously an attempt to derail the topic to focus on, what? Your misunderstanding of hypocrisy, sexism and journalism?

What's so "mis" about my understanding? And no, it hasn't "been three years", it never stopped.

Sure, my Justice Principle may color my comments, but this topic was in danger of excluding developers like Christine Love and their diverse audiences. And it's worth examining the variety of critical responses to this thematic matter and the factors behind it.

Edit: Corrected Christine Love's name after being alerted to an error by reader "altnameJag". I apologize to anyone affected by the lack of editorial oversight, and will of course be starting a Patreon account to fund a team of fact-checkers.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

I am going to float the idea that the game nature of games leads to it. Games are combative and combining that with sex leads to well thread topic. A old example I can think of was when some people made a sex version of D&D. It included some very intricate rules for having sex. The thing that was a really odd was how sex worked. It was basically a form of combat with different attacks and defenses. (Skill checks and will saves.) It wasn't even trying to be combat it was just the tools they had to use to make the system.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

What's so "mis" about my understanding? And no, it hasn't "been three years", it never stopped.

Boy, you ain't kidding.

Sure, my Justice Principle may color my comments, but this topic was in danger of excluding developers like Helen Love and their diverse audiences. And it's worth examining the variety of critical responses to this thematic matter and the factors behind it.

Who is that and what does it have to do with anything?

Like, google is having a hard time coming up with anything.

 

[StatusNil]

Who is that and what does it have to do with anything?

Like, google is having a hard time coming up with anything.

Whoa, you gotch-me. I made a mistake. "Helen Love" was a band (and TIL the singer of the band) that used to be featured in the hipster music press I read back in the day. You can check out their catchy tune "Joey Ramoney" here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFBg7HDp8UM

Obviously the artist working in the medium of vidya is Christine Love. Strangely, this isn't even the first time I've mixed up the names, and I never even particularly cared for the band. Something to bring up in therapy I suppose.

Oh well, thanks for the correction. I will of course immediately edit the post to better reflect reality. Wouldn't want any fake news getting out there.

 

[kiri3tsubasa]

Until I get my AAA budgeted Corruption of Champions game (along wiht some other Sakura games) my interests will be left on the various sites I go to for my porn games.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

*snip*

Neat. So, when Grayson was talking about LKiaB, he criticized a scene that was later voluntarily remove by Love. In your world, is that Censorship or Collusion?

OT: Catherine! Forgot about this one until I was in the shower! Good game, an eroge-horror puzzle game. Not nearly on the same level as Saya for fucked-upedness, and it doesn't show anything explicitly, because console, but definitely has some of the sexy. And, in keeping with the OP, (implied) sex where the dude is blacked out or so plastered he blacks out after. It's not called rape, because it's a dude as a victim and we've still got work to do on that front, something else I just now realized.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Catherine is no eroge lmao, consoles don't let eroge be put on them due to their policy against 18+ games. Catherine is a horror puzzle adventure.

Having sex as a theme does not eroge a game make and if it does the witcher is much more an eroge than Catherine lol.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Just describing Catherine as it describes itself.

Sex is a thing that happens in Witcher 3, but that's not what the game is about. Catherine is very much about sex, even if it doesn't "show" as much. And no, it isn't eroge, it's ero-horror, like I said.

 

[StatusNil]

Neat. So, when Grayson was talking about LKiaB, he criticized a scene that was later voluntarily remove by Love. In your world, is that Censorship or Collusion?

I haven't even seen Grayson's review, if such a thing exists (and it shouldn't, considering). But he and his cronies did give it plenty of other coverage, which you can easily see by some googling. Now, do they regularly give comparable games similar levels and style of coverage? The fuck they do.

And why would this be? Well, friendship is a beautiful thing:

Obviously there's lots more where that came from. So that would be the collusion, according to the alien customs of "my world". How about yours?

As for Love removing the rape scene, I really don't care one way or the other as long as the removal was, y'know, fully consensual on her part.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Neat. So, when Grayson was talking about LKiaB, he criticized a scene that was later voluntarily remove by Love. In your world, is that Censorship or Collusion?

I haven't even seen Grayson's review, if such a thing exists (and it shouldn't, considering). But he and his cronies did give it plenty of other coverage, which you can easily see by some googling. Now, do they regularly give comparable games similar levels and style of coverage? The fuck they do.

I could probably work through Grayson's backlog of articles to find another indie game he's talked about all of twice in two years, but I'm honestly not worried that much about it.

And why would this be? Well, friendship is a beautiful thing:
*snip*
Obviously there's lots more where that came from. So that would be the collusion, according to the alien customs of "my world". How about yours?

I dunno, networking? These folks tend go to a lot of the same events.

As for Love removing the rape scene, I really don't care one way or the other as long as the removal was, y'know, fully consensual on her part.

Well, as long as criticism doesn't equal attempted censorship anymore.

 

[maninahat]

Status Nil seems to think that if somebody routinely bashes bad representation or poor writing or what have you in games with a sexual bent, that means it's somehow a double standard if they have anything nice to say about a different game with the same broad (broad) themes.

Or he might be suspicious of his motives, since Grayson, paragon of journalistic ethics that he is, has been known for "having anything nice" to say about games made by personal friends and/or lovers without feeling the need to let his readers be aware of said relationships.

As far as I can tell, the only time Grayson has recently mentioned Love was in an article talking about how difficult it was for her to get an adult game onto steam - once again, not a review. We're condemning him for hypothetical cronyism over favourable coverage he hasn't provided, about someone who happens to be his friend. Honestly, you people would shit yourself with rage if you ever saw the photos of Roger Ebert hanging out with movie makers. [http://www.tvguide.com/celebrities/roger-ebert/photos/195308/1456499]

Now that you've opened the wound again, its time for me to moan about how games journalists are sent to lavish preview events where AAA devs wine and dine them, give them a ton of expenses paid activities, and take them out to strip clubs, all in the effort to garner those 7.5 to 10/10 reviews. And yet the real problem with the industry is that some indy game maker is friends with a guy who doesn't even review her stuff.

 

[Ogoid]

As far as I can tell, the only time Grayson has recently mentioned Love was in an article talking about how difficult it was for her to get an adult game onto steam - once again, not a review. We're condemning him for hypothetical cronyism over favourable coverage he hasn't provided, about someone who happens to be his friend. Honestly, you people would shit yourself with rage if you ever saw the photos of Roger Ebert hanging out with movie makers. [http://www.tvguide.com/celebrities/roger-ebert/photos/195308/1456499]

On Love's specific case, Grayson wrote about it in at least two [https://archive.fo/SDcNw] instances [http://archive.is/wVkql], but only once made any sort of disclosure of their personal relationship; but regardless, it's a well known fact he has an extensive history [http://deepfreeze.it/journo.php?j=nathan_grayson] of giving friends, lovers and/or business associates positive coverage without disclosure.

Now that you've opened the wound again, its time for me to moan about how games journalists are sent to lavish preview events where AAA devs wine and dine them, give them a ton of expenses paid activities, and take them out to strip clubs, all in the effort to garner those 7.5 to 10/10 reviews. And yet the real problem with the industry is that some indy game maker is friends with a guy who doesn't even review her stuff.

The fact that we were having a conversation specifically about one situation doesn't mean the other isn't a problem as well.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

If we are going to be spending all the thread talking about LKIAB, can we talk about how the game doesn't let you use your safe word instead of all this GG dunk.

I can't think up a accurate word, so lets just say the game has a odd relationship with consent. The consent of the character is dose not always match the consent of the player. There is a scene near the end of the game where you have the option of being whipped. I got to this scene and thought ya no. I don't want this. I am going to say no to this, but the player is not actually given the ability to say no. Your options are along of the lines of yes, angry yes, or to stay silent. Story wise, your character has the ability to say no. They have a save word and the game puts effort into letting you know this is all consensual. It's just that the player is not given the a dialog option to use your safeword.

 

[maninahat]

As far as I can tell, the only time Grayson has recently mentioned Love was in an article talking about how difficult it was for her to get an adult game onto steam - once again, not a review. We're condemning him for hypothetical cronyism over favourable coverage he hasn't provided, about someone who happens to be his friend. Honestly, you people would shit yourself with rage if you ever saw the photos of Roger Ebert hanging out with movie makers. [http://www.tvguide.com/celebrities/roger-ebert/photos/195308/1456499]

On Love's specific case, Grayson wrote about it in at least two [https://archive.fo/SDcNw] instances [http://archive.is/wVkql], but only once made any sort of disclosure of their personal relationship; but regardless, it's a well known fact he has an extensive history [http://deepfreeze.it/journo.php?j=nathan_grayson] of giving friends, lovers and/or business associates positive coverage without disclosure.

Now that you've opened the wound again, its time for me to moan about how games journalists are sent to lavish preview events where AAA devs wine and dine them, give them a ton of expenses paid activities, and take them out to strip clubs, all in the effort to garner those 7.5 to 10/10 reviews. And yet the real problem with the industry is that some indy game maker is friends with a guy who doesn't even review her stuff.

The fact that we were having a conversation specifically about one situation doesn't mean the other isn't a problem as well.

Oh wow, that really stupid website still exists - the one that considers it sensationalist journalism if you give a game a bad review. And wow - what a shocker - Grayson jokes that he and Love sung Karaoke together in one of the articles.

My point was that there is actually such a thing as compromised games journalism, but there is quite a gulf between game companies bribing/threatening game journalists in exchange for written recommendations, and a games journalist (correctly) deciding that sometimes a disclosure isn't necessary. Fixating on trivial non-problems whilst ignoring the big ones says a lot about the sincerity and commonsense of the people who write for DeepFreeze. It's as an answer, desperately looking for a problem.

 

[maninahat]

Why do so many porn type games involve rape? I mean I know not all of them do, Sakura Dungeon, despite the name is all consensual and its awesome but why do so many of the other ones always go with rape? Its fucken weird. I mean there can't be that many people who are into rape to get off, right?

My belief is that porn requires at least some kind of story to make it appealing, because that helps us relate with at least one of the characters in the scene. Otherwise they're just watching two figures humping mechanically for twenty minutes. Jon Lumberdick the plumber coming to fix the housewive's pipes isn't enough for people, because a story isn't a story until there is a conflict; until someone wants something and are being prevented from getting it. That is why taboo and rape porn is so popular these days; if the relationship on screen is in some way forbidden, either because its non-consensual, or incestuous, or a breach of trust or whatever, that creates an instant conflict to build a story.

Porn is an odd thing that expects us to enjoy utterly terrible scenarios, but because we get to explore and pick that scenario safely from behind a computer screen, a lot of people are un-phased by seeing these criminal or unethical sex acts.

 

[CritialGaming]

Why do so many porn type games involve rape? I mean I know not all of them do, Sakura Dungeon, despite the name is all consensual and its awesome but why do so many of the other ones always go with rape? Its fucken weird. I mean there can't be that many people who are into rape to get off, right?

People often fetishize things that are taboo or horrible in real life. Look up how many incest fantasies you can find on mainstream porn sites. Bondage, rape, etc, these things are actual fantasies held by people who would never do these things in real life, but the fantasy of it is actually a fairly normal thing.

Rape seems to be more popular in Europe and Asia, while incest is more popular in the West. Dunno why. There have been studies that suggest it is normal social expectations that lead people to develop darker sexual fantasies, but I dunno how true that is.

 

[Worgen]

Why do so many porn type games involve rape? I mean I know not all of them do, Sakura Dungeon, despite the name is all consensual and its awesome but why do so many of the other ones always go with rape? Its fucken weird. I mean there can't be that many people who are into rape to get off, right?

People often fetishize things that are taboo or horrible in real life. Look up how many incest fantasies you can find on mainstream porn sites. Bondage, rape, etc, these things are actual fantasies held by people who would never do these things in real life, but the fantasy of it is actually a fairly normal thing.

Rape seems to be more popular in Europe and Asia, while incest is more popular in the West. Dunno why. There have been studies that suggest it is normal social expectations that lead people to develop darker sexual fantasies, but I dunno how true that is.

Yeah, and that is fine, get off to something safely like that instead of actually doing it. My issue is that it seems like in this genre almost 80% of the games feature rape, excluding the vm games. If you're playing a side scrolling sex game or a rpg or whatever then chances are the sex is from a lose condition for you and therefore a rape of your character. If that's your thing then whatever, but it would be nice to have some alternatives since I find rape a pretty big boner killer. Plus it just rewards losing since I know in at least a few games you only get sex scenes from losing.