Advice From A Fanboy: Justice League

[BehattedWanderer]

You realise that a couple of years ago (pre-reboot) he renounced his American citizenship for pretty much these reasons, right?

See, I've always found Superman to be an interesting character. Obviously you have the battle of personality versus powers, where if he wanted to he could become God-Emperor of Earth, but because of the way he was raised and the man he has become, he doesn't. He just wants to help. He's also torn because he could be helping a lot more (see Red Son) but has to restrain himself because he knows that over-protective nannying will in the long run be detrimental to humanity's development - interestingly, a belief he shares with Lex Luthor, though obviously they disagree on what level of intervention is acceptable.

I don't like the modern trend of bashing Superman as bland and boring. Yes, his powers make him pretty dull, but his character makes him interesting. He's more human than many of his biologically-human contemporaries because he embodies all the things we consider the best about ourselves; honesty, compassion, mercy, justice and so on. He may be physically alien (another interesting facet to the character that gets frequently ignored by haters is that he's so incredibly lonely, because his powers set him so far apart from everyone else that there's practially nobody he can relate to) but he's emotionally human. More than anything, he's a symbol. People might be glad when Batman saves them from a rapist, but they're still afraid of him. When Superman shows up, they know that whatever happens, things are going to be OK, because Superman always saves the day. It's what he does.

Actually, no, I did not realize that. It doesn't really change things, because he still embodies that retchingly sickening idea of perfect goodness, and has no moral grey. There's never an issue of saving something personal over something for all, because, almost as a checklist in everything I've seen of him, he manages to save both parties what with his checklist of God Powers that he complains about having to keep in check. "Oh no, I'm almost as fast as the Flash, who can practically bend space and time he moves so fast! Oh no, I have near-impossible physical strength and can fly, how am I ever going to be in two places at once? Oh, right, I'll just be there that fast, save everything, then punch someone!" There's no real sense of danger, except when the plot device demands that he magically can't use his powers, which usually only lasts a short period of time. You said it yourself, "he always saves the day". His most interesting moment for me is him giving the ring to Batman, saying if he ever goes off the deep end, that Batman should use it. It led me to believe he might actually get too enveloped in his powers, a la Green Latern, but, in what I've seen, he never has. He can't, apparently, because it would break that whole "I'm the embodiment of hope, love, and goodness" thing.

And lonely? With all the various other Kryptonians that show up? With superhumans like Flash and Diana, and fellow Last Son J'onn J'onzz, among others? That doesn't hold much water for me, sorry. His adoptive parents, the parts of the JL he actually likes, fellow survivors, maybe even a couple of the people at The Daily Planet all become his family. He's not exactly short on friends.

Not really. I know Yahtzee said so, but that doesn't automatically make it true ;-)

The villains are often pretty boring and repetitive. That was the point of the whole Hush storylines, that Batman's villains were generally stuck in a rut of the same old thing, and Batman was able to defeat them easily because they were generally quite predictable. The most interesting thing in Batman stories is usually how Batman gets out of the situations he finds himself in and his own determination and drive to fight.

Yeah, Yahtzee said it, but it rings true in this case. Batman is useless with his villains. Yeah, some of them are just weird and comicky, but the best Batman stories are him going toe-to-toe with his own mind. He is Joker, except he doesn't kill. He is Scarecrow, except instead of innocents, he's targeting criminals. He is Two-Face, trying to juggle his desire for sociopathic violence and his desire to better the world. He's pitting his fractured humanity against his own anger, and it leads to him barely walking the line. Without his villains, he'd have either killed himself in his desolation, or become one for the other heroes to deal with. He's only interesting on his own because he walks the line between villain and hero.

I've always been of the opinion that listing Wonder Woman as one of DC's "big three" was making a statement rather than because she's a great character - "Hey, look, we have girl superheroes and they're totally equal to the dudes!" - since she's frankly not very interesting. I love comics, I've read thousands of them, and while I can talk about Batman or Superman or even obscure DC characters like Tommy Monaghan, Spoiler or the Doom Patrol for literally hours at a time, I have nothing to say about Wonder Woman. Can't really remember anything interesting she's said or done. Don't remember more than a couple of her storylines. Even when she was prominent in a JLA story I happened to have been reading, she seemed to fade into the background.

Like I said, I don't really know enough about her to chime in, so I'm more inclined to see something interesting come out of her involvement.

All this can be excused though, since the Flash is awesome ;-)

He's at least fun and consistent, even if in a world of suspended disbelief, it requires further suspension.

I think with Green Arrow, we run into the balance issue. Hawkeye in Avengers played his role and was a useful member of the team because with the exception of Thor and Hulk they weren't massively powerful individually. When you compare GA to his teammates, a guy with the boxing-glove arrow seems a little useless standing next to the dude who runs faster than sound or a man who can bench-press the moon. Batman gets away with it partly by being a memetic badass (it's fucking Batman!) and partly by being a full-fledged genius in matters technical and tactical, but Green Arrow - much as I like the guy - always felt outclassed.

I wholly agree, but he could provide great flavor as a side character. If they go less goofy, and stick him with things like thermite and acid capsule arrows, then he's at least useful occasionally. Like Hawkeye, he's a comic book character that barely makes sense in a world of superhumans, science, magic, and even normal humans that are just really really good at using a gun. Them using a bow is just...outdated.

And the rest of the time too. He has the same strength and speed wherever he is, which is one of the reasons the Aquaman bashing fad annoys me. Yeah, we get it, talking to fish is a bit dumb. That doesn't mean that's all he can do. I think it would be interesting if they used the comic book version of Aquaman, who is actually king of Atlantis (basically a massive underwater civilization) and therefore the de facto ruler of two thirds of the planet, with everything that entails - ambassadors to foreign countries, a standing army, the works. I like the character because he's got power in more ways than just physical; he's a genuine player on the world diplomatic stage.

Wow, that all sounds wonderful! My favorite parts of superhero movies are the U.N. meetings between dignitaries from various nations! Seriously, though, that's neat and all, but how much fun can you feasibly get up to when you're the king of an underwater civilization. Unless they're aiming for a LOTR/Hobbit battle of five armies kind of thing, then I don't see much use to Aquaman's armies, other than a cheap way to knock off the Chitauri from Avengers, which I'm hoping they don't do.

I strongly disagree. DC have tons of interesting heroes and villains, and a million great stories to tell. You just need to look past the fashionable bashing of characters as "boring" or "useless" and see them as more than one-note jokes.

Superman is still boring to me. He's a Swiss army knife with too many functions, so when it comes time to need something simple, you miss the point and end up making it complicated just to get use out of it. He's always The Golden Boy, never to do wrong, because he's got practically no reason to fail except contrivance. Batman we know makes for great entertainment, Bat-nipples withstanding, but hopefully this won't be "Batman and Friends". Wonder Woman and Aquaman make for an interesting pair of superhumans for less interesting things to happen to, Green Latern won't get to do much because of the recent flop, and I can't help but question how much anyone else will really get any focus. There's a chance they could pull it off, but my hopes aren't that high. This isn't being done to tell a Justice League story, it's being done because Marvel made an entire mountain range of money with their combined movies, and DC/Warner Bros wants a part of that. That's not a good reason to anticipate the great film it could be, so I'm skeptical.

 

[WhiteFangofWhoa]

You hit the nail on the head here. Unfortunately it's only the tip of the iceberg of troubles really; I feel that making a group of 'Thor-style' living God heroes relatable to the average audience would be an even trickier task than humanizing each of the 'Spidey-style' Avengers. Even more so if you don't take the time in separate good movies to build interest in each of them individually. Avengers was like five minor miracles one after the other. None had to be perfect, but any one of the four being a Green Lantern-level bomb could have ruined the whole thing. If you're working on a deadline as DC is now, the odds of that happening rise further still.

I support the White Martian idea for what it's worth. The hardest threat for Superman to deal with is always the one that disguises itself within the society he vowed to protect, or more often has become a critical part of society that can never be safely removed (Luthor). IIRC they were amazingly deadly in the Justice League pilot (something they should certainly try to take inspiration from), capable of infiltrating, regenerating, telepathically brainwashing and of course transforming into the Leaguers to battle them on equal footing. Like as then, J'onn J'onzz doesn't need his own movie to become the glue that pulls the team together any more than Nick Fury did.

The Wonder Woman movie is probably necessary, and of all of them it's one I'd like to see done extremely well to get people interested in characters other than Batman and Supes. Besides being the most formal of the trio in diction and action, she also stands apart from the rest by either lacking or often disregarding the 'do not kill rule'. That makes a kind of sense since so many of her opponents are Greek Gods like Circe, Hades and Ares who will always come back, but despite making her primary goal achieving lasting peace between her two homes she is a more traditional warrior than Bruce and Clark, shown to be skilled with nearly every melee weapon in existence.

Sadly, there's so many conflicting voices on a project this big that I doubt any of these ideas from any of us will be heard. It will take another miracle to hit as big as Avengers instead of just being a hollow me-too cash-grab. If Man of Steel is well received then they have a foundation to build off of. Here's hoping.

 

[Trishbot]

DC has not succeeded in a single superhero film in almost two decades (I don't care how much money the Schumachuer films made)...

... and I don't consider the Nolan trilogy "superhero" movies. Those movies, as good as they are, are almost ASHAMED of their comic book roots and took great pains to eliminate anything even remotely unrealistic or plausible from them. They are good thrillers and police drama movies, but they're pretty abysmal as "superhero" movies.

Compare that to The Avengers, which is so unabashedly fun and PROUD of being a comic book movie about larger-than-life superheroes.

Can audiences TRULY go back to a movie where Batman could possibly fight a giant starfish after Nolan stripped every comic book-y element from him?

 

[sleeky01]

As far as villains go....How about the Legion of Doom? It could have a SPECTER feel to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPECTRE

 

[Mr_Terrific]

There's no way WB will make a good JLA. It's literally impossible.

They will continue to fail with Superman and they've never gotten WW right. The 70's tv show is TOO big of an influence and that version of WW is wrong for today's audience. They will screw up with casting much like they did with the pilot of that awful WW tv show, and they will screw up with the characterization of WW. Part Amazon, part God. That's how it should be. Instead of fighting mobsters and bank robbers, she should be fighting the gods...just like Thor.

I disagree with adding Martian Manhunter to the JLA. The two most powerful beings (arguably) in the JLA are aliens? No. Johns did the right thing by bringing on Cyborg.

Batman? As long as they completely forget about the Nolan movies and do go too far overboard with neon and nipple suits, there's no way to ruin that. Nolan's Bat....actually, he made one good movie, one decent movie, and one terrible movie. I love how everyone forgets how god awful Begins was. TDK was a great drama and action movie thanks to the Joker, but a terrible superhero movie. TDKR...was a thing that happened. They need to move away from that crap.

They've already shown they have no idea what to do with Green Lantern.

They will fail with Flash and Aquaman.

WB should just whole sale rip off Marvel Studios and make a real life comic book movie but follow the comics even closer than Marvel did with the Avengers. People will love it because DC has great characters.

 

[Antonio Torrente]

There's no way WB will make a good JLA. It's literally impossible.

They will continue to fail with Superman and they've never gotten WW right. The 70's tv show is TOO big of an influence and that version of WW is wrong for today's audience. They will screw up with casting much like they did with the pilot of that awful WW tv show, and they will screw up with the characterization of WW. Part Amazon, part God. That's how it should be. Instead of fighting mobsters and bank robbers, she should be fighting the gods...just like Thor.

I disagree with adding Martian Manhunter to the JLA. The two most powerful beings (arguably) in the JLA are aliens? No. Johns did the right thing by bringing on Cyborg.

Batman? As long as they completely forget about the Nolan movies and do go too far overboard with neon and nipple suits, there's no way to ruin that. Nolan's Bat....actually, he made one good movie, one decent movie, and one terrible movie. I love how everyone forgets how god awful Begins was. TDK was a great drama and action movie thanks to the Joker, but a terrible superhero movie. TDKR...was a thing that happened. They need to move away from that crap.

They've already shown they have no idea what to do with Green Lantern.

They will fail with Flash and Aquaman.

WB should just whole sale rip off Marvel Studios and make a real life comic book movie but follow the comics even closer than Marvel did with the Avengers. People will love it because DC has great characters.

Did you know that Warner is planning a WW tv series in CW. So if the JLA movie and this CW WW both have the same character but played by different actress then its gonna be a confusing mess. But then again they showed Smallville and Superman Returns at same time.

Here's hoping that it won't crash and burn like Green Lantern, but if they do at least we'll be there and laugh at their failure.

 

[MANIFESTER]

*snip*

I can understand your hate of Superman, I pretty much had it too up until I read All-Star Superman. But if you are up for it I would suggest you give Red Son a shot. It is a very interesting take on the character and you don't need too too much knowledge of Superman to get into it. It requires just periphery knowledge. Plus the art looks like Soviet propaganda which is awesome. Not saying it will blow your mind or change your opinion on main continuity Supes, but I hope it will prove that there are good stories that can and have been told using him.

*snip* again

I can understand your hate of the New 52, but oddly enough I am on the flip side of you, where it got me to start buying comics again. I have picked up all the issues of Batman, Flash, Swamp Thing, and some of Aquaman (where I finally find him to be cool. I have even picked up Justice League Dark and find it overall to be a good book, but (before you start throwing bold fucks everywhere) I like Hellblazer better so it is a shame they are ending that run.

One last thing, I believe they are pretty much committed to the new 52 for now so I don't think it is going back to the way you want it for some time. Sure there are people who don't like it and they have their reason whether it be for missing elements, or they just like to contrarian, or whatever. Hell I have some things I don't like about it ( I miss you Wally!), but I have come to realization that it is just a matter of waiting till the older elements I liked come back and hopefully in a good way.

 

[Milanezi]

I'd go on New 52 take

The sooner we can have the next big crossover crisis that erases the New 52 and puts the continuity back the way it was, the sooner I can start buying comics again. To risk sounding like a whining fanboy who resists any kind of change, the New 52 is just bad. Horrible idea, horrible execution (you can tell the writers hated the idea, because of the 20-odd books I've read not one writer has bothered to make any kind of effort, kinda like a silent rebellion), the sooner it gets reverted the better.

I disagree, but I also agree, which is a paradox I know lol I'll try and explain...

I read a LOT of Batman comics, and it was the only series I read faithfully, I hated Superman and the Justice League didn't call my attention, I stopped reading when after a wonderfully crafted "death" we got stuck with Bruce Wayne locked in a pre-historic era, and then there was that dick Dick Grayson turning into the Bat and blergh... Came the New 52 my interest was picked, I just jumped all the Crisis bullshit and got back to Batman... And I LOVE it but it makes no fucking sense, I mean, it's a reboot, everybody gets a reboot but Batman "sorta gets a reboot" (I mean, how the hell did he train that many Robins in FIVE years???)... So ok, I think the Batman storyline is great but sorta like in a "control group".

But here's what REALLY got my attention in the New 52, and maybe YOU lack this vision, and I really don't mean to offend as you'll see it's more of a compliment than anything... DC Universe for me was Batman (deeply) and I knew the origins of Superman, Green Lantern and a FEW others, I'd read graphic novels like Kingdom Come and all, but you know that's not enough. In other words, there was no entryway for me to start reading Superman, nor anyone like me. With the New 52 I began reading action Comics, Superman, Justice League, Catwoman (ok, I have no idea why I'm reading THAT, it's just... beyond awful), and for the first time I'm really understanding what the fuck is going on. So The New 52 is a really nice way for new readers to jump in. However, I understand how an "original" reader (as in, fan of the original storyline) would get pissed, and I understand because I'm a fan of the Star Wars universe, and as excited as I mean about the Episode VII, I understand that either they get in line with the Expanded Universe or they deliver something SOOOOOO GOOD that I'll gladly accept it as an alternate storyline.

Which brings me to... Marvel Ultimate. As a "reboot" it's cool, but shitty, or was when I quit it. Now they have their New 52 of their own in the form of this post- Avengers vs X-Men battle, it's nice and smart that the entryway for new readers was placed along with the normal continuity, but (I'm reading only some X-Men titles) things look so weakened, so abused, the story is like this poor thing that has been poor through so many trials it can no longer take the stress. So I wonder, if us westerners refused to kill and bury our heroes FOR good, lest they become what they became, A MESS, shouldn't we at least give them the honor of getting reboots (good ones) from time to time (maybe every 2 decades or something)?

 

[SonicWaffle]

*snip* again

I can understand your hate of the New 52, but oddly enough I am on the flip side of you, where it got me to start buying comics again. I have picked up all the issues of Batman, Flash, Swamp Thing, and some of Aquaman (where I finally find him to be cool. I have even picked up Justice League Dark and find it overall to be a good book, but (before you start throwing bold fucks everywhere) I like Hellblazer better so it is a shame they are ending that run.

I throw bold fucks wherever I feel they need to be thrown. It's how I roll.

The thing is, I'll probably never buy comics again. Not in some ragequitting, "ruined forever!" kind of way, but because the prices are so horrendous. I'm a words guy, not a pictures guy, and I can't spend hours poring over the artwork in a comic book; I'm reading for the story, and so I will usually read an issue in a few minutes. There's no way I'm going to pay several pounds for a few minutes of entertainment, especially when to keep up with multiple characters or crossovers I'm required to buy several books a week. With the overall quality of the New 52, it just isn't worth the money, and I've never been much of a Marvel guy. Used to love Vertigo, but that's been folded into main DCU so what 's the point?

Oh, and Hellblazer is my all-time favourite comic book. I absolutely loathe the fact that they've put him in the crappy JLD book, and the character has always functioned best on the very fringes of the DC universe. Bringing him into the mainstream is just about the worst thing you can do, because he doesn't fit even slightly.

One last thing, I believe they are pretty much committed to the new 52 for now so I don't think it is going back to the way you want it for some time. Sure there are people who don't like it and they have their reason whether it be for missing elements, or they just like to contrarian, or whatever. Hell I have some things I don't like about it ( I miss you Wally!), but I have come to realization that it is just a matter of waiting till the older elements I liked come back and hopefully in a good way.

Yeah, I know it won't change back, but a guy can dream can't he? I just wanted to be able to enjoy my favourite characters and stories without them being changed every five minutes.

 

[SonicWaffle]

Actually, no, I did not realize that. It doesn't really change things, because he still embodies that retchingly sickening idea of perfect goodness, and has no moral grey.

Then you should probably read more of his comics. At least once, he has been forced to kill, and spent a long time loathing himself for it.

There's never an issue of saving something personal over something for all, because, almost as a checklist in everything I've seen of him, he manages to save both parties what with his checklist of God Powers that he complains about having to keep in check. "Oh no, I'm almost as fast as the Flash, who can practically bend space and time he moves so fast! Oh no, I have near-impossible physical strength and can fly, how am I ever going to be in two places at once? Oh, right, I'll just be there that fast, save everything, then punch someone!"

Yeah, like when he totally wasn't too busy fighting Brainiac to save his father's life.

Oh, wait...

There's no real sense of danger, except when the plot device demands that he magically can't use his powers, which usually only lasts a short period of time.

He actually has one of the easiest weaknesses in the DCU to take advantage of. For a very long time now, his primary weaknesses have been kryptonite and magic, which in the DC universe is about as common as spandex. Though that's not really relevant to what we're talking about, because you seem to be looking at the idea of danger or threat backwards - it's key to Superman's character that the threat is rarely to him personally, but to everyone else. Having taken on the role of protector, he feels duty-bound to save the day, and so a threat to innocent lives has more weight than a threat to him.

You said it yourself, "he always saves the day". His most interesting moment for me is him giving the ring to Batman, saying if he ever goes off the deep end, that Batman should use it. It led me to believe he might actually get too enveloped in his powers, a la Green Latern, but, in what I've seen, he never has. He can't, apparently, because it would break that whole "I'm the embodiment of hope, love, and goodness" thing.

Actually, the driving reason for giving Batman the kryptonite ring was so that there would be a way to stop him if he were mind-controlled again. Not so much that he thought he'd become corrupted by power, more that he was worried someone might use him as a weapon.

And lonely? With all the various other Kryptonians that show up? With superhumans like Flash and Diana, and fellow Last Son J'onn J'onzz, among others? That doesn't hold much water for me, sorry. His adoptive parents, the parts of the JL he actually likes, fellow survivors, maybe even a couple of the people at The Daily Planet all become his family. He's not exactly short on friends.

Biiiiig difference between having people in your life, and people you can relate to. In terms of what he can do, he's elevated so far above the understanding of the majority of those people that he considers himself an outsider. Sure, he has family and friends, but none of them are on the same level as he is.

He's at least fun and consistent, even if in a world of suspended disbelief, it requires further suspension.

Fun certainly, but consistent? How many Flashes have there been now? Off the top of my head, counting only people who had the job for a significant length of time, I've got four in mind, though there are probably more that I'm missing.

I also, much as I love the character, am of the opinion that he won't work in a movie. How could he possibly? Superman has super-speed, true, but he also flies and hits stuff and has laser vision, so there's plenty he can be shown doing on screen. Any time Flash uses his powers he'll either be too fast for the audience to see or the movie will have to be put in slow-motion while he's shown moving at normal speed.

Wow, that all sounds wonderful! My favorite parts of superhero movies are the U.N. meetings between dignitaries from various nations!

Obviously he does not have to do all the boring shit - he's a king, they can delegate. He sends people to handle the UN or diplomatic meetings, while he goes off to punch sharks or whatever

Seriously, though, that's neat and all, but how much fun can you feasibly get up to when you're the king of an underwater civilization. Unless they're aiming for a LOTR/Hobbit battle of five armies kind of thing, then I don't see much use to Aquaman's armies, other than a cheap way to knock off the Chitauri from Avengers, which I'm hoping they don't do.

Ever read the JLA: World War Three storyline? An ancient superweapon that causes unstoppable rage and bloodlust is approaching Earth, and pretty much every nation on the planet strikes up a war with everyone else. Aquaman basically wins by rocking up out of the sea with his army and announcing "My kingdom covers three quarters of the planet, I have millions of heavily-armed soldiers whose power levels are close to my own, we have technology you haven't even heard of yet. Picking a fight with the king of Atlantis is a really fucking stupid idea, OK?"

It's just an interesting aspect to the character. How many superheroes have the option of solving problems on a much grander scale than punching things?

 

[SonicWaffle]

I read a LOT of Batman comics, and it was the only series I read faithfully, I hated Superman and the Justice League didn't call my attention, I stopped reading when after a wonderfully crafted "death" we got stuck with Bruce Wayne locked in a pre-historic era, and then there was that dick Dick Grayson turning into the Bat and blergh...

I agree, they've really fucked Batman up over the last few years. After the wretched mess of a crossover where he died, my interest in DC suffered a pretty hefty blow. While the Dick & Damien as Batman & Robin series was good, and pretty interesting, it just never felt right. Tim buggering off to be Red Robin, all that madness with Spoiler and Batgirl, Bruce wandering through time and then Batman Incorporated...

The sad part is, most of the worst parts of recent years (particularly Red Robin and Damian Wayne) have actually been retained for the New 52, because apparently DC's editors have all suffered massive head trauma recently.

Came the New 52 my interest was picked, I just jumped all the Crisis bullshit and got back to Batman... And I LOVE it but it makes no fucking sense, I mean, it's a reboot, everybody gets a reboot but Batman "sorta gets a reboot" (I mean, how the hell did he train that many Robins in FIVE years???)... So ok, I think the Batman storyline is great but sorta like in a "control group".

Batman has always been a sticking point. His writers and editors are very protective of the bat-family (because they're the biggest sellers) to the point of refusing to let Robin be on certain incarnations of the Teen Titans or continually trying to get Batman out of the JLA.

But here's what REALLY got my attention in the New 52, and maybe YOU lack this vision, and I really don't mean to offend as you'll see it's more of a compliment than anything... DC Universe for me was Batman (deeply) and I knew the origins of Superman, Green Lantern and a FEW others, I'd read graphic novels like Kingdom Come and all, but you know that's not enough. In other words, there was no entryway for me to start reading Superman, nor anyone like me.

Well, there's always wikipedia. If there was ever an aspect of continuity I didn't get (though it was rare, since despite what people seem to think writers try not to rely too heavily on things only a niche market would understand, as it hampers the story and audience) I'd just look it up.

With the New 52 I began reading action Comics, Superman, Justice League, Catwoman (ok, I have no idea why I'm reading THAT, it's just... beyond awful), and for the first time I'm really understanding what the fuck is going on. So The New 52 is a really nice way for new readers to jump in. However, I understand how an "original" reader (as in, fan of the original storyline) would get pissed, and I understand because I'm a fan of the Star Wars universe, and as excited as I mean about the Episode VII, I understand that either they get in line with the Expanded Universe or they deliver something SOOOOOO GOOD that I'll gladly accept it as an alternate storyline.

My major problem with the New 52, aside from my own personal hang-ups about everything I enjoyed being rebooted, is that the writing quality is so piss-poor. I get the feeling many of the writers hate the idea of the New 52, and just aren't making the effort. It may be a nice place for new readers to pick up a book without worrying about continuity, but how many of them will keep buying those books when the stories and characters are as badly written as the ones in New 52?

Which brings me to... Marvel Ultimate. As a "reboot" it's cool, but shitty, or was when I quit it. Now they have their New 52 of their own in the form of this post- Avengers vs X-Men battle, it's nice and smart that the entryway for new readers was placed along with the normal continuity, but (I'm reading only some X-Men titles) things look so weakened, so abused, the story is like this poor thing that has been poor through so many trials it can no longer take the stress. So I wonder, if us westerners refused to kill and bury our heroes FOR good, lest they become what they became, A MESS, shouldn't we at least give them the honor of getting reboots (good ones) from time to time (maybe every 2 decades or something)?

So we should reboot Star Wars? After all, the franchise has been running a long time, aren't we overdue to completely overhaul the entire series? Maybe change all the characters personalities and appearances and everything any nerd ever learned about the Star Wars universe will be irrelevant because that never happened. Sounds fun to me!

The reason superhero books tend to get into such a mess, particularly DC, is because they won't stop fucking with them. They have something that works, and works well, but they keep deciding to have a huge crisis event and destroy a multiverse, then create a new multiverse, and maybe put a character on a "different" Earth (always hated that), or reboot the franchise, or de-age the character, or something stupid that gets in the way of the story. I think if they just stopped pulling stupid stunts like this, there'd be much less need for a continuity cull so newer readers would understand.

 

[Saltyk]

Not being a comic book fan, but I can say that I have loved all of the superheroes adaptions I have seen (that I care to remember seeing). Shows and movies like Batman: The Animated Series, Batman: Beyond, Justice League, Most Batman movies (you know the ones), the whole thing Marvel Disney did, and with an honorable mention to Static Shock. I can say that I always enjoyed these.

So here's my understanding of the DC and Marvel universes.

DC heroes are frankly more powerful, but less interesting as a rule. They are heroes first, and people second. As it was said in Batman: Begins, the mask is Bruce Wayne, not Batman. And Batman is one of the few characters with an actual deep motivation having seen his parents killed in front of him as a child. Most other DC heroes barely have anything that affects them. Superman is more of a boyscout to the point that everyone calls him that. I remember a great scene in Justice League where he tried to threaten a C list villain. The guy just looked at him and mocked him, knowing he wouldn't do a thing to him. This is despite the fact that Superman is easily one of the most powerful individuals in the DC universe with Strength, Speed, and invulnerability (among other powers) that at least rival some of the other greatest heroes (I think the Flash is a little faster than Supes). Green Lantern... Space police officer (seriously do any of the Green Lanterns have any real back story?) with an insanely powerful ring that can create light energy constructs as long as the bearer has a strong force of will. The stronger their will power, the stronger the ring will be.

Marvel as more interesting, but less powerful. Tony Stark, the weapons manufacturer turned philanthropist who creates a dons a mechanical super-suit to beat bad guys, but also is dying save for a potent reactor in his chest, and has a long standing drinking problem. Peter Parker, the young man granted super-human abilities, but he squandered them and his uncle died. Now, he realizes that with Great Power comes great responsibility, but does that mean he can't have a life? Bruce Banner, a scientist exposed to enough radiation to kill a man. Instead it turned him into a monster, anytime he gets angry. Banner is rather mild mannered seeking a cure for what ills him, but also helping people along the way. But the Hulk is a raging beast, who may or may not be on your side at any given moment, with powers that make him incredibly strong and nearly invulnerable. And the madder Hulk gets, the stronger he gets.

For the record, Iron Man/Tony Stark was meant to be a character that the audience would hate normally, but feel pathos for because of his situation. Bruce Banner was sort of intended as a Frankenstein/Jekyll and Hyde sort of character.

I'm not really sure how a Justice League movie would work out. I half fear that any threat would end up being resolved by Superman, like the Super Friends did half the time. There are very few villains that could fight evenly with Superman AND still see many of the other league members as legitimate threats. Batman is amazing, but still limited as a human. Wonder Woman is not quite as strong as the Man of Steel, and lacks his full plethora of powers including invulnerability. Green Lantern is a powerhouse, but could he really fight evenly with DarkSeid or Doomsday? Flash has speed, and can showcase some amazing abilities, but I'm not sure he can defeat some of the foes that Superman can, like Brainiac or a powered up Parasite?

And that's the problem they need to overcome. There are few credible threats that can keep the whole league at bay, other than a alliance of Supervillains, Cadmus, or DarkSeid. All of which really need more than one movie to set up. This reeks more of DC wanting to compete with Marvel's Avenger's 2 and not wanting to make a good film which is what would compete with Avengers and the recent Marvel movies. One reason they did so well is that the lead up actually wasn't half bad. Each movie was at least watchable. I foresee a bad movie that may make money, but will be hated by pretty much everyone.

You can argue that Marvel needed the lead up, but I think it benefited the finished project. Even if we know the heroes, the world needs build up and the concept of some bigger threat needs to be built up. And we already had a feel for the characters as well. So when Tony Stark showed up and started teasing Bruce Banner it worked. When Captain America talked to Nick Fury about the mission, it worked. When Thor called upon his brother's decency, even while Loki stated that they weren't brothers, it worked. If we had seen the previous movies we understood the characters a lot. If we didn't, we could always go see the previous movies and discover what we missed. Just jumping in feet first without anything, especially a movie that was retooled to make it work, doesn't inspire confidence. People may get Batman's element of distrust for Superman, but grudging respect for him. But will they understand Wonder Woman? Hell, it doesn't even seem the people making that TV Show understood her... This will hurt any character interaction between the group, especially since many of the characters will have little backstory or time to establish who they are beyond cliche tropes.

Oh, and the Marvel movies had some great casting! Everyone of them was nearly pitch perfect. And it really showed. So, getting the right people for the job is quite a task. Lord knows we don't want Jake Lloyd as Green Lantern or Aquaman. And for those with multiple characters that could fill the roll, like Flash and Green Lantern, who would it be? Hal Jordon? John Stewart? Guy Gardner? Kyle Rayner? Will they include characters and stories popularized in the not too long ago Justice League series? These are some questions that I wonder if they have actually tried to answer.

TLR: I'm a fan of the adaptions, and I fear DC is making a poor decision. The supposed weakness Marvel had has actually been something of a strength, and just throwing in 3-7 heroes, a bunch of whom the audience at large won't be familiar with, at all. Made worse by the lack of really relatable characters, most of whom will get shortchanged on screen time in a group picture and will hurt the worst aspect of such films, the group dynamic. This sort of feels like a cash grab rather than an actual effort to make a good movie that could actually make a ton more money. Hopefully, I am wrong, but I fear the worst.

Ever read the JLA: World War Three storyline? An ancient superweapon that causes unstoppable rage and bloodlust is approaching Earth, and pretty much every nation on the planet strikes up a war with everyone else. Aquaman basically wins by rocking up out of the sea with his army and announcing "My kingdom covers three quarters of the planet, I have millions of heavily-armed soldiers whose power levels are close to my own, we have technology you haven't even heard of yet. Picking a fight with the king of Atlantis is a really fucking stupid idea, OK?"

It's just an interesting aspect to the character. How many superheroes have the option of solving problems on a much grander scale than punching things?

That's pretty interesting. I've heard that Aquaman is a much better character in reality than people think he is. It's just that in Super Friends his only impressive power seemed to be talking to fish. Wow, that's great when you're dealing with threats in the air and on the land.

This kind of stuff probably didn't help that image...​

 

[Winnosh]

I still want my Aquaman and Wonderwoman teamup movie. They are the characters that play the best off of each other with amazing similarities and compatable stories.

 

[Mr_Terrific]

Don't know what you guys are reading but I'm thoroughly enjoying the New 52. I'm not saying some of it isn't crap. Catwoman is bad. Earth 2 died when they turned Grundy into a Captain Planet Villain. Batman is overexposed (Batman, Detective Comics, Batman & Robin, Batman Inc, JLA, JLI, The Dark Knight, Legends of the Dark Knight). JLA appears started out right but sagged in the middle. JLI is crap. Everything dealing with the Lanterns outside of Green Lantern is crap. Nightwing is boring. Red Hood has been painfully mediocre but that might be due to the fact that he's stuck with D list characters like Arsenal and Starboobs. Mr Terrific was anything but. They killed the outstanding Huntress series to have her slog around with Power Girl for no reason other than to please Power Girl fanboys....yeah. Not all hookers and sunshine over at DC..but. My biggest disappointment thus far has been Deathstroke. Is it really that hard to make a complete badass interesting? He's actually better in Team 7 than he is in his own series.

Batman and been consistently good outside of the Batman Inc and JLI stuff. Superman is picking up and he's more interesting now than he's ever been. Brian Azzarello is hitting a homerun with Wonder Woman and her war with the gods. Green Lantern only stumbled with this Baz bulls***. They had the perfect opportunity to do something different with a GL from 2814 instead of the usual human male from America crap. Prior to that, reading Hal and Sinestro play buddy cop has been great. Batgirl is outstanding and Gale Simone is a genius. The Ravagers are what the Teen Titans should be. Supergirl is good, as well as Superboy. Loved the mixing of the Birds and Ivy. My favorite series so far has been the Batwoman...love the art work and the writing.

I am also confused about the reboot-lite that went on with DC. Condensing a few decades of content down to 5 years has been a bit odd. Like how some remember that the Blackest Night was a thing and some don't...hell, some were even on another Earth or not created yet. They should have completely rebooted or done nothing but reset the numbers like Marvel is doing with NOW....speaking of.

Marvel NoW is mostly crap in my opinion. So, nobody really died during this "war" over the summer except Xavier? All New Xmen is nonsensical time traveling garbage. A+X is a joke. Uncanny Avengers is decent. Thor is good. Captain America is good. Indestructible Hulk has potential now that Banner seems to be over it. Iron Man is boring. The First Xmen has potential and has been good so far. Captain Marvel is still an embarrassment to the Marvel franchise and I'm convinced that they only continue that comic for the sole purpose of trolling DC (Carol Danvers= Capt. Marvel, Linda Danvers= Supergirl...har har) so they're forced to call their series the comically bad Shazam. Not interested in Deadpool. I will give Thunderbolts a shot. Will continue to ignore Spiderman once it gets folded into Marvel now. Bleh to the rest...especially the Xmen. Oh...and $3.99 for Batman is one thing...but $3.99 for f***ing everything Marvel offers is ridiculous.

 

[jkvoller]

Wouldn't the best thing to do for the JLA film is allow the writers from the animation department to write it. In my opinion, the Justice League animated films are some of their best work and it would be smart of WB to at least allow them to write a script. The JLU series had more emotional depth to it than anything they could possibly come up with

 

[Milanezi]

So we should reboot Star Wars? After all, the franchise has been running a long time, aren't we overdue to completely overhaul the entire series? Maybe change all the characters personalities and appearances and everything any nerd ever learned about the Star Wars universe will be irrelevant because that never happened. Sounds fun to me!

The reason superhero books tend to get into such a mess, particularly DC, is because they won't stop fucking with them. They have something that works, and works well, but they keep deciding to have a huge crisis event and destroy a multiverse, then create a new multiverse, and maybe put a character on a "different" Earth (always hated that), or reboot the franchise, or de-age the character, or something stupid that gets in the way of the story. I think if they just stopped pulling stupid stunts like this, there'd be much less need for a continuity cull so newer readers would understand.

I'm all in favor of rebooting Star Wars, or at least the new trilogy and maybe even the expanded universe. But you touched an interesting point: DC (and Marvel) characters get messed up with ALL the time, it's like every new writer has an idea and he just throws it on top of the poor character without properly analyzing the consequences. Whereas Star wars had some HEAVY supervision on the canon Expanded Universe in the sense of, which character can die, and when can they die, what can or cannot happen, so on; this "respect" that is given to the mythos makes it possible to move through the timeline in a sensible manner: characters die FOR GOOD, they don't return EVER AGAIN, for instance (unless there's some GREAT explanation, like Palpatine, but then again, he learned to "transfer himself" from his old master Darth Plagueis). For instance a "not so much reboot" a lá New 52 came in the form of Star Wars Legacy, the essence of Star Wars is there, nice entryway for anyone who never touched anything related to the franchise, the story is great, the chracters are cool... And most importantly, it's set so far in the future it doesn't impact on either the books or movies.

Batman, Superman, Wolverine, Spider Man, all of them, on the other, remain like toys for writers to do as they please...

 

[Milanezi]

Wouldn't the best thing to do for the JLA film is allow the writers from the animation department to write it. In my opinion, the Justice League animated films are some of their best work and it would be smart of WB to at least allow them to write a script. The JLU series had more emotional depth to it than anything they could possibly come up with

... ... ... Good... VERY GOOD...

 

[BehattedWanderer]

Spoiler: Snippety snip

Actually, no, I did not realize that. It doesn't really change things, because he still embodies that retchingly sickening idea of perfect goodness, and has no moral grey.

Then you should probably read more of his comics. At least once, he has been forced to kill, and spent a long time loathing himself for it.

There's never an issue of saving something personal over something for all, because, almost as a checklist in everything I've seen of him, he manages to save both parties what with his checklist of God Powers that he complains about having to keep in check. "Oh no, I'm almost as fast as the Flash, who can practically bend space and time he moves so fast! Oh no, I have near-impossible physical strength and can fly, how am I ever going to be in two places at once? Oh, right, I'll just be there that fast, save everything, then punch someone!"

Yeah, like when he totally wasn't too busy fighting Brainiac to save his father's life.

Oh, wait...

There's no real sense of danger, except when the plot device demands that he magically can't use his powers, which usually only lasts a short period of time.

He actually has one of the easiest weaknesses in the DCU to take advantage of. For a very long time now, his primary weaknesses have been kryptonite and magic, which in the DC universe is about as common as spandex. Though that's not really relevant to what we're talking about, because you seem to be looking at the idea of danger or threat backwards - it's key to Superman's character that the threat is rarely to him personally, but to everyone else. Having taken on the role of protector, he feels duty-bound to save the day, and so a threat to innocent lives has more weight than a threat to him.

You said it yourself, "he always saves the day". His most interesting moment for me is him giving the ring to Batman, saying if he ever goes off the deep end, that Batman should use it. It led me to believe he might actually get too enveloped in his powers, a la Green Latern, but, in what I've seen, he never has. He can't, apparently, because it would break that whole "I'm the embodiment of hope, love, and goodness" thing.

Actually, the driving reason for giving Batman the kryptonite ring was so that there would be a way to stop him if he were mind-controlled again. Not so much that he thought he'd become corrupted by power, more that he was worried someone might use him as a weapon.

And lonely? With all the various other Kryptonians that show up? With superhumans like Flash and Diana, and fellow Last Son J'onn J'onzz, among others? That doesn't hold much water for me, sorry. His adoptive parents, the parts of the JL he actually likes, fellow survivors, maybe even a couple of the people at The Daily Planet all become his family. He's not exactly short on friends.

Biiiiig difference between having people in your life, and people you can relate to. In terms of what he can do, he's elevated so far above the understanding of the majority of those people that he considers himself an outsider. Sure, he has family and friends, but none of them are on the same level as he is.

He's at least fun and consistent, even if in a world of suspended disbelief, it requires further suspension.

Fun certainly, but consistent? How many Flashes have there been now? Off the top of my head, counting only people who had the job for a significant length of time, I've got four in mind, though there are probably more that I'm missing.

I also, much as I love the character, am of the opinion that he won't work in a movie. How could he possibly? Superman has super-speed, true, but he also flies and hits stuff and has laser vision, so there's plenty he can be shown doing on screen. Any time Flash uses his powers he'll either be too fast for the audience to see or the movie will have to be put in slow-motion while he's shown moving at normal speed.

Wow, that all sounds wonderful! My favorite parts of superhero movies are the U.N. meetings between dignitaries from various nations!

Obviously he does not have to do all the boring shit - he's a king, they can delegate. He sends people to handle the UN or diplomatic meetings, while he goes off to punch sharks or whatever

Seriously, though, that's neat and all, but how much fun can you feasibly get up to when you're the king of an underwater civilization. Unless they're aiming for a LOTR/Hobbit battle of five armies kind of thing, then I don't see much use to Aquaman's armies, other than a cheap way to knock off the Chitauri from Avengers, which I'm hoping they don't do.

Ever read the JLA: World War Three storyline? An ancient superweapon that causes unstoppable rage and bloodlust is approaching Earth, and pretty much every nation on the planet strikes up a war with everyone else. Aquaman basically wins by rocking up out of the sea with his army and announcing "My kingdom covers three quarters of the planet, I have millions of heavily-armed soldiers whose power levels are close to my own, we have technology you haven't even heard of yet. Picking a fight with the king of Atlantis is a really fucking stupid idea, OK?"

It's just an interesting aspect to the character. How many superheroes have the option of solving problems on a much grander scale than punching things?

I love this idea that people keep recommending his comics to me as the one or two examples where he deviates from his usual self, as if to say "Look, he's not boring in this one, I promise!" I read his stuff for awhile, found him a terminally boring character with a massive white knight complex, and washed my hands of it. In a similar situation, wouldn't you do the same? So either the character was massively retooled to be actually fun to read while I wasn't watching, or there were a couple of instances where the narrative at work required he be something else entirely, which means I shouldn't have to worry that he's gotten exciting, as these are minor deviations. From what you're describing, though, I'm not sensing much change from when I left him, so I'm not too worried.

The bit about magic being his weakness is something I've read, but had kind of forgotten, and that's part of the issue. Here is a Superhero that just gets a free "I'm the Protector of everything!" card, not because he can be, but because that's the only mentality he could possibly have. With his near-invulnerability and massive "only I can save everyone" egotism, he has to be the valiant protector. Except, in any other case, the protector risks personal safety to save someone else. Here...there's barely a threat to him, unless some of the Anti-Superman designed villains come out. Oh no, a building is burning with people inside! How is that a problem? He could remove the building, fly around frost-breathing the fuck out of the fire, and go on his merry way. A villain is attacking! Why not politely move it the fuck out the way? Oh, Plot Contrivance says he can't now, oops!

The mind-control thing is at least a bit more interesting than I remember it being, until I remember who I'm talking about, and realize the championing force for "goodness" in his red and blue tights could never be a villain for long, because that's just not right. If there was even the slightest chance he would actually be corrupted by his powers, he'd be infinitely more interesting to me. FFS, Spider-man has more of a moral dilemma than Superman does, and he's not even marginally as powerful.

Oh, and don't let too much of my sarcasm about Aquaman get your undergarments of choice into a tighter twist. Yeah, I imagine he'll be interesting in the movie, but almost the entire lineup has some form of super strength already, so the most interesting thing about him at the moment for me is that his massive army can show up at the end Holy Grail style and arrest the end the movie. It won't happen, of course, but I'm secretly hoping for it.

Honestly, the only way I'm seeing this be actually good, and not just an Avengers mimic, is if they focus on what having these disproportionately powerful individuals coming together means for the rest of the planet, and that having them together means more and more powerful things rise to try and stop them, so you have certain villains show up for the explicit purpose of pointing out how the world has changed, and how much more danger it's in now more than ever, despite the way the heroes are present. Justice League versus the people they fight to save? That would be fun. As it sits, however, it kind of sounds like Dragon Ball Z, where a bunch of powerful lunatics stomp about screaming rocks into sand and punching mountain ranges into caverns. While Batman sulks in the corner.

 

[Guffe]

It would be awesome if we'd get two grand superhero movies in the same year...
I am starting to look forward to 2015
Chances thou that both are good/great = meh
Chances we'll actually get both in 2015 = doubt it

 

[SonicWaffle]

Most other DC heroes barely have anything that affects them.

Going to have to correct you somewhat on that one, champ.

Superman lost his entire planet, with all but a handful of his species being destroyed, and the most prominent of those who survived are villains whom he eventually is forced to murder.
Martian Manhunter is also the last of his kind, except for some evil cousins who sometimes turn up and grudge-fuck the earth.
Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) had his entire city blown up. Green Lantern (Jon Stewart) had a planet he was meant to protect blow up, lost his wife, and was then crippled. Green Lantern (Kyle Rayner) had his girlfriend murdered almost immediately after becoming GL. Green Lantern (Guy Gardner) had the single stupidest haircut in comics for a really long time.
The Flash (Wally West) worshipped his predecessor (Barry Allen), who ended up dying and leaving poor Wally alone.
The Atom's wife went insane and murdered his friend's wife in a vain attempt to get Atom to love her again. No, I don't get the logic either.
Elastic Man's wife was raped by a supervillain, and then later murdered (by the Atom's estranged wife, see above).
Aquaman had his baby son murdered, which caused his wife to leave him, and him to abdicate his throne and disappear.

Those are just the ones I can think of after five seconds. Thing is, pretty much all the DC's heroes have horrible, tragic things happen to them, much like any other superhero whose stories have been running long enough. Spiderman doesn't exactly have a monopoly on misery, everyone gets a slice when the writers feel they need stronger motivation (or just want to fuck with the character).

Green Lantern... Space police officer (seriously do any of the Green Lanterns have any real back story?) with an insanely powerful ring that can create light energy constructs as long as the bearer has a strong force of will. The stronger their will power, the stronger the ring will be.

Oh, man, the Green Lantern backstory is huge. The history of the Corps is long, bloody, and at least once it involves Earth's prominent GL (Hal Jordan) going bugfuck crazy(see above re city being blown up) and wiping out the rest of the Green Lantern Corps. Then you've got the various other Lantern colours (Red, Orange, Blue etc) and the war that ensues, and then of course you've got Blackest Night in which everything goes wrong for everyone...

I'm not really sure how a Justice League movie would work out. I half fear that any threat would end up being resolved by Superman, like the Super Friends did half the time. There are very few villains that could fight evenly with Superman AND still see many of the other league members as legitimate threats. Batman is amazing, but still limited as a human. Wonder Woman is not quite as strong as the Man of Steel, and lacks his full plethora of powers including invulnerability. Green Lantern is a powerhouse, but could he really fight evenly with DarkSeid or Doomsday? Flash has speed, and can showcase some amazing abilities, but I'm not sure he can defeat some of the foes that Superman can, like Brainiac or a powered up Parasite?

See, this is the point of the JLA. Where the Avengers has always been more about big ol' fight scenes (which is fair enough), for many years now the JLA has been more about tactics. They have a wide spectrum of powers, and instead of just hurling Superman at every problem (which generally doesn't work, because while he is very powerful he isn't as powerful as people like to make him out - White Martians, for instance, are pretty much his power level as are a number of other League foes) they tend to use what resources they have to their disposal. This is Batman's primary role in the team; he can't go toe-to-toe with many villains the way the others can, he's there as a tactician to analyse situations and opponents and use the others' powers accordingly.

People may get Batman's element of distrust for Superman, but grudging respect for him.

In most versions of the characters, they're pretty much best friends. They moved past the "distrust but grudgingly respect" things a loooong time ago.

It's just an interesting aspect to the character. How many superheroes have the option of solving problems on a much grander scale than punching things?

That's pretty interesting. I've heard that Aquaman is a much better character in reality than people think he is. It's just that in Super Friends his only impressive power seemed to be talking to fish. Wow, that's great when you're dealing with threats in the air and on the land.

Aquaman is basically hardcore, but the "talking to fish" thing gets him labelled as crap by people who either don't read comics or are just riffing on him as a joke. Unfortunately, that stuff sticks in the public consciousness, and can often eclipse the original material.

Even shows like Big Bang Theory, about a group of geeks who love and constantly reference comic books, slips into Aquaman-bashing. Not that realistic, because someone who owns as many comics as those dudes really ought to know better