After getting and watching Force Awakens again...

[BloatedGuppy]

I got the impression from Ep 7 that something roughly like this happened. That they signed the forms to get the Rebellion off their backs, and then slinked off to a quiet system to lick their wounds, and rebuild in secret. Made sense to me.

Sure, they could've explained that you know...in the movie instead of in the novel, and I will forever criticize any film/tv show for making me have to outsource my knowledge of their show, to fully understand their show. It was a weak point in Ep 7, but not an overly huge one for me, and I was more than capable of inferring what likely happened politically in the 30 year gap.

Still, actually saying it would've been nice.

Yep, agreed. Was probably the single most painful omission, even if I understand their reasons for omitting it.

In the Pen and Paper campaign I'm running for our RPG group, I set it roughly ten years after Jedi, just after the disarmament treaty, and a large clump of the Imperial Remnant...having been pushed out of the Galactic Core...is now fucking things up for them in Hutt Space.

The First Order isn't even "The rest of the Empire". It was a splinter group. Fanatics and hard liners.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

That's like doing Godfather 4 because "Um, he just fell off his chair". Nothing about VI's end suggests the war is anything but over.

If recent events in the real world have taught us anything it's that when you remove the figurehead of a militant institution, the remainder immediately collapse into peaceful repose.

It's a fantasy film. As soon as Sauron dies and Barad-d?r collapses, the story ends.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

It's a fantasy film. As soon as Sauron dies and Barad-d?r collapses, the story ends.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scouring_of_the_Shire

"The Scouring of the Shire" is the penultimate chapter of the epic fantasy The Lord of the Rings by J. R. R. Tolkien and the eighteenth chapter of The Return of the King. The hobbits, Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin, return home to the Shire to find that it has been despoiled and corrupted by ruffians and their leader, the wizard Saruman, now known as Sharkey. To date, it has been left out of all film adaptations of the novel.

The author denied that the chapter was an allegory of the state of Britain during the aftermath of World War II.

Maybe you should have picked a different fantasy novel as an example.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

It's a fantasy film. As soon as Sauron dies and Barad-d?r collapses, the story ends.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scouring_of_the_Shire

"The Scouring of the Shire" is the penultimate chapter of the epic fantasy The Lord of the Rings by J. R. R. Tolkien and the eighteenth chapter of The Return of the King. The hobbits, Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin, return home to the Shire to find that it has been despoiled and corrupted by ruffians and their leader, the wizard Saruman, now known as Sharkey. To date, it has been left out of all film adaptations of the novel.

The author denied that the chapter was an allegory of the state of Britain during the aftermath of World War II.

Maybe you should have picked a different fantasy novel as an example.

I picked a film, not a novel. And don't throw the books at me mate, I was done with them before the movies even came out.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

To me it's a glaring plot hole. Episode VII did a very poor job at justifying the Rebel/Empire continuum, whatever they're called now.

To be honest, does it really need to be explained that much? It makes complete sense. The Empire lost its Emperor, a battle and two big space stations. It has an entire empire left. Would it make sense for the Empire to suddenly poof out of existence. Like, the original trilogy never showed the defeat of the Empire. It only showed the Rebel Alliance striking it a very powerful blow. This is just the war continuing.

That's like doing Godfather 4 because "Um, he just fell off his chair". Nothing about VI's end suggests the war is anything but over.

Nothing about Jedi's end suggests the war is over. Unless you're talking about the crappy Special Edition, where they added those celebrations on the other worlds.

No, I'm talking about the one and only 1983 film, which has as conclusive an end as anybody could've hoped for back then.

 

[C14N]

I never got why this confused so many people. I only saw the movie once when it came out but I managed to gather (or maybe I just assumed) that the First Order are a big paramilitary force led by Snoke. The GR is either publically in denial that they exist or they are just unaware of the extent of their power. It's pretty easy for the First Order to hide because space is fucking huge guys and until they use their Death Star Mk II in the film, they haven't really done much to warrant further inspection (because the shitty government aren't going to care about some backwater villages raided by Kylo Ren). The film makes it quite clear that the leaders of the GR are a completely swamped congress who get nothing done which is why they can't raise a real army to fight the First Order. However at the same time they or some part of they are privately supporting the rebel force lead by Leia by giving them ships and guns.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I picked a film, not a novel.

Sorry, is the source material for that film not applicable? You're attempting to make the argument that "fantasy" demands the collapse of all antagonistic elements once a primary antagonist is toppled. Now you're playing a shell game with films.

Saruman's Shire stint lasts a single chapter and is quickly stifled. It ends a trilogy, it doesn't start one.

That's nice, and also completely irrelevant. You suggested that the existence of antagonistic elements in the Star Wars universe post Palpatine constituted "a glaring plot hole". You attempted to support this argument by stating "it's fantasy", using LOTR as your example. Whether the scouring of the Shire and the continuation of hostilities in Middle Earth constituted one chapter or twenty, occurred at the end or beginning of a book, is irrelevant. Killing Sauron did not remove all evil from the world. Threats and suffering remained.

 

[C14N]

That's like doing Godfather 4 because "Um, he just fell off his chair". Nothing about VI's end suggests the war is anything but over.

Just because the war is over doesn't mean all the problems in the universe are solved. The Force Awakens seems to be set some 30-40 years after Return of the Jedi. That's less time than it took for the victory of WW1 to give way to WW2.

 

[Cowabungaa]

That's like doing Godfather 4 because "Um, he just fell off his chair". Nothing about VI's end suggests the war is anything but over.

Indeed, it does suggest that if you ask me. Especially the celebratory nature of the newer cuts, but even before that they presented it as happiness and sunshine from here on out. Fireworks and all that shit.

Which I think was really, really stupid.

I always thought VI's ending was dumb as hell because it made so little sense when you think even a few seconds about the nature of the Empire. So if you ask me the ending of the original trilogy has more to answer for than the start of the new trilogy. There's still a huge command structure and bureaucratic apparatus in place, there's still untold soldiers and a huge naval fleet to contest with.

Of course that shit's going to hang around, of course some element within the Empirical hierarchy is going to take over, lay claim to that shit and continue to try to hold on to its power. It's a real "no shit Sherlock" situation.

snip

Holy shit Saruman went by Sharkey? That's too funny.

 

[elvor0]

The only real reason Rey is called a Mary Sue is because she's a girl. Or just go ahead and call Luke a Mary Sue too; you'd be wrong, but you'd at least not appear to be sexist.

Don't....don't do that. If you liked the character, fine, but don't use the veil of sexism as a political meat shield to discount peoples grievances with a character that is hyper competent beyond reason or in universe logic.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Don't....don't do that. If you liked the character, fine, but don't use the veil of sexism as a political meat shield to discount peoples grievances with a character that is hyper competent beyond reason or in universe logic.

Generically suggesting all people concerned with Rey's characterization were sexist would be unfair, you are correct.

Suggesting that a healthy number of people are, however...

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.936976-After-getting-and-watching-Force-Awakens-again?page=2#23606165

I can happily acknowledge that plenty of people dislike Rey for perfectly supportable non-sexist reasons, if you can happily acknowledge that plenty of people dislike her because "get these bitches out of my entertainment".

 

[Stu35]

The only real reason Rey is called a Mary Sue is because she's a girl. Or just go ahead and call Luke a Mary Sue too; you'd be wrong, but you'd at least not appear to be sexist.

Don't....don't do that. If you liked the character, fine, but don't use the veil of sexism as a political meat shield to discount peoples grievances with a character that is hyper competent beyond reason or in universe logic.

I've noticed the "sexism" defence popping up a lot when any female characters are criticised.

Just look at the Ghostbusters remake - they've basically won no matter what they do - if people like it then good for them, if they don't then it's clearly because of sexism, and nothing to do with the film itself.


Personally I think the Luke = Rey comparison of mary-sue ness is a flawed one, Luke spent 3 films growing into his powers - by the end of IV he could just about get a torpedo down an exhaust (on the 2nd attempt), by the end of Empire he'd had his hand cut off after being brutally outmatched by a dark lord of the sith (after spending the film failing in nearly every task Yoda set him), finally, at the end of Jedi he was truly complete...


Rey needs to be the best pilot ever? Done.
Rey needs to know how to completely repair and optimise a ship? Happy days.
Rey needs to mind-trick someone? Easy-peezy lemon-sqeezy.
Rey needs to beat a powerful Knight of Ren(?!) at both summoning lightsaber then lightsaber combat itself? Not a drama.

The girl has no flaws. Luke had flaws.

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

That's like doing Godfather 4 because "Um, he just fell off his chair". Nothing about VI's end suggests the war is anything but over.

Indeed, it does suggest that if you ask me. Especially the celebratory nature of the newer cuts, but even before that they presented it as happiness and sunshine from here on out. Fireworks and all that shit.

Which I think was really, really stupid.

I always thought VI's ending was dumb as hell because it made so little sense when you think even a few seconds about the nature of the Empire. So if you ask me the ending of the original trilogy has more to answer for than the start of the new trilogy. There's still a huge command structure and bureaucratic apparatus in place, there's still untold soldiers and a huge naval fleet to contest with.

Of course that shit's going to hang around, of course some element within the Empirical hierarchy is going to take over, lay claim to that shit and continue to try to hold on to its power. It's a real "no shit Sherlock" situation.

snip

Holy shit Saruman went by Sharkey? That's too funny.

I don't think the end of Jedi suggested the problems were all over (at least not in the original cuts). I think they suggested that everyone in the rebellion thought they were over. But they were not. Which sets up nicely for the events of TFA.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler

Don't....don't do that. If you liked the character, fine, but don't use the veil of sexism as a political meat shield to discount peoples grievances with a character that is hyper competent beyond reason or in universe logic.

Generically suggesting all people concerned with Rey's characterization were sexist would be unfair, you are correct.

Suggesting that a healthy number of people are, however...

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.936976-After-getting-and-watching-Force-Awakens-again?page=2#23606165

I can happily acknowledge that plenty of people dislike Rey for perfectly supportable non-sexist reasons, if you can happily acknowledge that plenty of people dislike her because "get these bitches out of my entertainment".

Some of those are really bizarre, and not even in a sexist way.

I'm all for diversity but I think what Disney is showing is that it only matters if the white females are happy lol. Why not someone of a different race instead of giving us what we just had in Force Awakens

Finn is so sad.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Rey needs to be the best pilot ever? Done.
Rey needs to know how to completely repair and optimise a ship? Happy days.
Rey needs to mind-trick someone? Easy-peezy lemon-sqeezy.
Rey needs to beat a powerful Knight of Ren(?!) at both summoning lightsaber then lightsaber combat itself? Not a drama.

The girl has no flaws. Luke had flaws.

This argument containing two lies and two exaggerations was quite convincing. I'm on board!

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

And again, she outflew TIE pilots. That's hardly a litmus test for being a "space ace."

Have I missed something here? What's inherently sucky about TIE pilots?

Well, there's a billion of the bastards. Unlike real life, where there's heavy competition to become a jet pilot, it seems like the only qualification necessary to be a TIE pilot is a willingness to jump into a space craft with minimal to no shields and a basic level of competence in three dimensional movement.

Still doesn't change the fact that TIE fighters have a much better kill count than the Stormtroopers. Heck, in Episode 4 the rebels didn't start dying until the TIEs were sent out.

Finn is so sad.

Finn's also not the Uber special force user. He's honestly the more interesting character, but the movie doesn't really do as much with him as it could've and should've.

Seriously, the guy's the ONE Stormtrooper who didn't take to the conditioning, and just wants out of the whole mess. He's forced to fight and kill against people he'd been raised with his whole life, but they don't really have him reflecting on that. Just give him a lightsaber and murder away.

Don't....don't do that. If you liked the character, fine, but don't use the veil of sexism as a political meat shield to discount peoples grievances with a character that is hyper competent beyond reason or in universe logic.

Generically suggesting all people concerned with Rey's characterization were sexist would be unfair, you are correct.

Suggesting that a healthy number of people are, however...

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.936976-After-getting-and-watching-Force-Awakens-again?page=2#23606165

I can happily acknowledge that plenty of people dislike Rey for perfectly supportable non-sexist reasons, if you can happily acknowledge that plenty of people dislike her because "get these bitches out of my entertainment".

You're gonna use freaking Youtube comments as evidence for sexism against Rey being the driving cause of the Sue accusations? Really?

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

Rey needs to be the best pilot ever? Done.

Despite the fact she nearly wrecks the Falcon on takeoff, and states explicitly she's flown before just not outside the atmosphere... not necessarily the best pilot ever but she has reasons to know how to fly.

Rey needs to know how to completely repair and optimise a ship? Happy days.

She knows one part that was added into the Falcon, and companion material also explains she used to sneak aboard the ship at night and putter around it.

Rey needs to mind-trick someone? Easy-peezy lemon-sqeezy.

She fails at first, and also there's hints that she has had training in canon companion material. The movie poorly explains that though. But still... she fails at first.

Rey needs to beat a powerful Knight of Ren(?!) at both summoning lightsaber then lightsaber combat itself? Not a drama.

Again the whole idea she has more than likely had some training in force usage and has shown to be competent in melee combat. Ren is also hurting from a bowcaster shot, a shot mind you that has been shown to devastate everyone else who's been hit by it.

The girl has no flaws. Luke had flaws.

She has flaws, she gets captured, she screws up trying to help the party escape the freighter and lets loose the carnivorous life forms Han had aboard the ship by accident. See also the almost crashing of the Falcon. Willful ignorance of the facts does not support your assertions.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler

And again, she outflew TIE pilots. That's hardly a litmus test for being a "space ace."

Have I missed something here? What's inherently sucky about TIE pilots?

Well, there's a billion of the bastards. Unlike real life, where there's heavy competition to become a jet pilot, it seems like the only qualification necessary to be a TIE pilot is a willingness to jump into a space craft with minimal to no shields and a basic level of competence in three dimensional movement.

Still doesn't change the fact that TIE fighters have a much better kill count than the Stormtroopers. Heck, in Episode 4 the rebels didn't start dying until the TIEs were sent out.

Episode 4 starts off with a rebel corvette getting boarded and Rebels dying in droves.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Spoiler

And again, she outflew TIE pilots. That's hardly a litmus test for being a "space ace."

Have I missed something here? What's inherently sucky about TIE pilots?

Well, there's a billion of the bastards. Unlike real life, where there's heavy competition to become a jet pilot, it seems like the only qualification necessary to be a TIE pilot is a willingness to jump into a space craft with minimal to no shields and a basic level of competence in three dimensional movement.

Still doesn't change the fact that TIE fighters have a much better kill count than the Stormtroopers. Heck, in Episode 4 the rebels didn't start dying until the TIEs were sent out.

Episode 4 starts off with a rebel corvette getting boarded and Rebels dying in droves.

That's also the last time the poor Stoormtroopers get a kill count that high till Episode 7, and that second time STILL had a bunch of them dying in signifigant numbers.

 

[EternallyBored]

Spoiler

And again, she outflew TIE pilots. That's hardly a litmus test for being a "space ace."

Have I missed something here? What's inherently sucky about TIE pilots?

Well, there's a billion of the bastards. Unlike real life, where there's heavy competition to become a jet pilot, it seems like the only qualification necessary to be a TIE pilot is a willingness to jump into a space craft with minimal to no shields and a basic level of competence in three dimensional movement.

Still doesn't change the fact that TIE fighters have a much better kill count than the Stormtroopers. Heck, in Episode 4 the rebels didn't start dying until the TIEs were sent out.

Episode 4 starts off with a rebel corvette getting boarded and Rebels dying in droves.

Pretty much, TIE fighters are about as effective as Stormtroopers, basically they can hit the rebels until the heroes show up where they pretty much get wrecked or become a running joke to make the heroes look better. Like Obi Wan talking about Luke's aunt and uncle getting killed by talking up the stormtroopers like they're precise crack shots, who then proceed to be made fools of during the Death Star escape.

Likewise, TIE fighters get to shoot down the extras to look threatening, but completely fail to be a threat against the Millennium Falcon and Luke shooting in a turret he's never been in before, or getting blown up from behind in the Death Star battle. Like Stormtroopers they also fail to do more than completely miss Luke's X-Wing despite him making no impressive dodging maneuvers.

If anything the original trilogy TIE pilots were much less impressive than their episode VII counterparts, although I chalk this up as limitations in special effects making it impossible to show TIE pilots doing the maneuvers that pilots in the prequels or episode VII are able to do.

In this at least Episode VII is consistent, the bad guys are elite trained soldiers right up until they come up against someone with plot shields where they then pretty much become comically bad shots/pilots.