After getting and watching Force Awakens again...

[BloatedGuppy]

...partly because the film was slower paced and took greater time to introduce everyone...

This to me is the most painful point of contrast between New Hope and its modern day doppleganger. While everyone castigates Force Awakens for aping Episode IV in overall structure, TFA had a lot more to do than New Hope did, and a roughly equivalent amount of time to do it in.

We have a 30 year time gap, so the film requires a lot more universe building than a 7th chapter would reasonably be expected to.

We have two protagonists to establish (Finn and Rey) vs one (Luke).

We have a primary antagonist who is a fully fledged character in his own right, technically bringing the "protagonist" count to a bewildering three.

We have a panoply of new supporting and ancillary characters on both sides of the ledger.

We have several returning characters all demanding a share of screen time, ranging from primary (Han Solo) to miniscule (R2-D2).

There were heaping spoonfuls of fan service and callbacks also eating small batches of screen time.

The best term I was able to apply to Force Awakens was "overstuffed". It's at once a soft reboot, the tent pole for a new trilogy and EU, and the continuation of an epic saga spanning 40 years of cinema. At four hours it would have had a ludicrous amount of ground to cover. At barely over two, sacrifices were going to have to be made. Unquestionably, New Hope is the better film at character development. Simply the existence of moments of quiet conversation or reflection give it a huge leg up in this regard. I think TFA does a better job with worse circumstances than it gets credit for, but there's no question it puts the audience in a tough spot at times...particularly in regards to macro level events and universe building.

 

[Redryhno]

Oh look, a horribly misrepresentative image that downplays every one of Luke's accomplishments and hypes up every last thing Rey did. And you're just throwing it up as if it's even remotely accurate.

Last time I checked, Rey beat up two guys, knew about a single modification that she was involved with installing on the Millenium Falcon that Han had absolutely no fucking way of knowing about, stated that she's flown before but not in space, gets her ass handed to her by a heavily wounded and emotionally distraught Kylo Ren until she gives into the Force, can resist mind probing and manages to trick a weak minded stormtrooper on her third attempt, is trusted by Leia, the leader of the Resistance and Force sensitive, to go find her Jedi brother, speaks several languages like literally every other character in the universe, and has an actual reason why she would be competent at these things considering she lived on a junkyard planet and is a former student of Luke's.

Meanwhile, Luke is the best pilot in the Rebellion who can survive a trench run and Darth Vader simply because he flew some speeder back home, blew up a giant superweapon by giving into the Force allowing him to make a shot no one else was able to make, and has no reason to be the least bit competent at any sort of combat or piloting. But I guess him being put upon makes all his achievements go away.

Not to stomp on your rant here, but considering how often other people had to translate in the orignal trilogy(Chewie to Han to everyone else alot of the time and most certainly not Luke), I'm going to have to say no, not everyone can understand every language in the galaxy. Hell, even in the prequels, the point in time the galaxy having a common language would make sense, there was a helluva lot of translating. And about the only reason there wasn't more was simply because "humans" were the focus. Hell, there was even a galactic translator referenced. So there's a pretty big chance nobody speaks the same language, they're just all listening through their translators so we're just seeing it through our own(like with any dub or any time language/subtitles "should" be a factor to "fit".)

And you're largely underplaying Rey's accomplishments just as much as you're saying others are overplaying them. Can we just quit playing this game and just agree that comparatively, Rey is at a much stronger place than Luke was at the same period? And that that presents a pretty big Majin-shaped problem going forward?

She beat a Sith apprentice on her first tries basically(Jedi mindfuck first, and then physically, even if he was injured at the time). Something that even Obi-Wan had difficulty doing, and he was FAR more accomplished when Maul was around than Rey. The strongest Jedi in the galaxy at the time, routinely hailed as masters of the Force and heroes of a bygone age, largely paled in comparison to their Sith counterparts.

And here we have Rey just "giving in" to the Force and it suddenly making her better? That's not how it's been shown to work in the past dude(beyond just simple zen state of mind for a few moments, and even that was only possible because Luke wasn't having to concentrate on much of anything other than that), and there's no reason it should beyond "it makes this particular scene more dramatic". How hard would it have been to show that although she gives in and embraces the Force, she still loses because Ren knows what the fuck he's actually doing more than her?But that it allows her and...what's his name(I'm really bad with names of characters I don't find to be all that important), to escape? How hard would it have been to show the new trilogy's villain as actually being competent against the hero for once?

Do you see the problem people largely have with Rey? It's not that she's got these abilities, skills, and talents, it's that she's shown to have them this fucking early on. It's that she's been given three movies of growth packed into one. The hero always wins in the end, we know this. But if you aren't even going to have them be set back from a narrative standpoint, why the hell should anyone care how they win in the end?

We've all seen the Sonic fanfics, the bad Naruto filler, the shitty manga series that somehow keeps being printed even though three hundred chapters could easily have been cut down to forty and it would've been more coherent and actually have been good. For alot of people, this is largely the same thing. And instead of accepting that as their reasoning, people largely latch onto Rey having boobs being why they don't like her some reason I'm still not understanding beyond playing the same damn game people have been for almost ten fucking years now.

 

[Frankster]

Gonna stop being lazy and start snipping

120% in agreement here. New Hope might not be the first chronologically in the story, but it was the first film to be made, came with 0 baggage and expectations and thus was allowed to breathe and be its own thing without even having to explain what happened prior to the story. TFA on the other hand... Yikes.

I didn't even really think about it but yeh, Vader is pretty much just an enforcer in the first film who looks cool but otherwise he isn't expanded any more then say..Tarkin. Kylo Ren however came out with far more character out of the gate, to the point that some dislike him exactly because it isn't long before we start seeing him without a helmet and what goes on inside his psyche, he doesn't have time to be a proper scary enforcer before we see his vulnerable side.

Yeah you make some very good points here that I can't help but not my head vigorously to. Maybe this is yet another reason why I'm now more excited for Rogue one then the next official Star wars film, Rogue one won't have a lot of these external factors to screw it up *fingers crossed*

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

Do you see the problem people largely have with Rey? It's not that she's got these abilities, skills, and talents, it's that she's shown to have them this fucking early on.

I personally don't think her abilities as shown are all that exceptional.

True, she fights a sith apprentice and wins... but only when he is severely wounded. So wounded that he has some trouble dealing with a single storm trooper in his preferred style of combat. Under normal circumstances he should have been able to just think at Finn and kill him. And Finn is a storm trooper by the way who was massively outclassed by TR-8R in close combat. If you watch the comparative fights Finn had about as much difficulty with TR-8R as he did with Ren. Ren was so weak at the time he was basically only on par with a melee specialist storm trooper, and he is actively bleeding out as the scene goes.

So Rey barely managed to beat a dying man in a sword fight, and only because he decided to not take the killing blow when he had it. Not exactly a massive accomplishment.

And resisting force mindfuckery isn't all that special. There are many times where people easily shrug off force influence even from masters, and I think we can say with confidence that at least Leia has shown an ability to resist such mindfuckery from Darth Vader, who is unquestionably more powerful than Kylo Ren. So not special either.

Nothing she does is all that impressive when taken in context, and the movie takes great pains to make most of that context abundantly clear. Hell, it is strongly implied that she already had some training as a force user, hence her ability to pick it up so quickly. But people insist on ignoring every bit of context they can to make Rey seem like the perfect Mary Sue wonderkin when she clearly is not. It is ridiculous.

And for all the complaints that that TFA was a rehash of ANH (which is very unfair to both movies, in my opinion) there are sure a lot of people demanding that Rey has to go through the same process of force discovery that Luke did. Because apparently all force users have to follow the exact archetype of Luke Skywalker even though he was plainly stated to be an unusual case himself.

People find reasons to hate Rey. If people hated Rey for the character she actually is then I could understand that. I even agree she is the least interesting of the new 3 so far. But they don't. They invent reasons to hate her. They ignore the actual movie, preferring instead to just make shit up about her so they can hate her more. And there are only two reasons I can think of for this: It is a new Star Wars movie and nerds will be nerds and hate new things or people will be sexist bastards and hate it when women get the spotlight.

 

[Redryhno]

People find reasons to hate Rey. If people hated Rey for the character she actually is then I could understand that. I even agree she is the least interesting of the new 3 so far. But they don't. They invent reasons to hate her. They ignore the actual movie, preferring instead to just make shit up about her so they can hate her more. And there are only two reasons I can think of for this: It is a new Star Wars movie and nerds will be nerds and hate new things or people will be sexist bastards and hate it when women get the spotlight.

Here's the thing, this right here, is what I'm talking about when it comes to people not taking "I don't like her" as reason enough. It's always you're either a fanboy(been called that when I routinely fall asleep watching through every movie in the series and honestly have only ever been interested in the ancient history of the setting that's now largely been rendered moot), or you just don't like women in leading hero roles(which could be true if you look at it a certain considering there's very few hero women that are actually done competently).

Neither of which contribute to much other than that point-scoring bullshit I mentioned. People have different tastes and standards, and those are largely being thrown out the window as legitimate because, as you said, "people aren't willing to accept women as heroes". And that mindset is limiting as all fuck.

Like seriously, the movie was in production(and not just production "we're totally doing it" limbo) for less than a year, went through something like four directors, three sets of writers, and a plethora of crew members. I was surprised it wasn't as much of a trainwreck as I thought it would be, but it still had problems. And they're largely hand-waved away with "Rey is amazing"(something that's HEAVILY disagreed upon in the fandom) and "two more movies!"(and when you need two more movies to answer questions in the FIRST one there's a bit problem, this is part of why Kara no Kyokai will never be considered as mainstream amazing as it is like something like Madoka).

 

[BloatedGuppy]

...(and when you need two more movies to answer questions in the FIRST one there's a bit problem, this is part of why Kara no Kyokai will never be considered as mainstream amazing as it is like something like Madoka).

Uh, not really. It's kind of standard operating procedure for trilogies, particularly more modern day trilogies that are functionally a single story arc broken over a 6 hour span. I'll never understand this bizarre insistence that films be 100% self contained (ushered forth for the first time regarding Rey and Force Awakens). It literally disallows any kind of mystery, cliffhanger or obscured plot point.

As to Rey, and why people dislike her...obviously it varies from individual to individual, but let's look at comments from the Rogue One trailer, shall we?

The feminism is strong with this one...

ANOTHER WHITE BRITSH GIRL AS THE LEAD VERY ORIGINAL DISNEY

Star Wars: Rogue Feminist!!!!!

I'm all for diversity but I think what Disney is showing is that it only matters if the white females are happy lol. Why not someone of a different race instead of giving us what we just had in Force Awakens

Ok why do all the new Star Wars movies have a girl as the main character and everyone has a British accent

I think it's hilarious seeing all these feminists and their weak male slaves getting all worked up when guys throw the same arguments at them that they've been spewing for years now. Glorious karma

Disney and their princesses come on xD

Feminism has taken over Star Wars?

White males are not allowed to be good guys anymore it seems.

That moment when you realize the franchise you knew and loved as a child has just become a feminist cash grab... :/

Three male leads in RO: hispanic, black, asian. Every bad guy in RO: white. I'm not saying that this movie is racist, but if one would flip the script, people would be screaming "Bloody racism!".

They did this just to appease the feminists

feminism destroy's movies and games!

Why only black people and weirds womens .??? ,, as main cast..

Great, another annoying Mary Sue character.

Disney presents: Social Justice Wars: Mary Sue in Space!

I could go on and on and on as there are thousands of comments, but I think this is sufficient. Second most common complaint was "Where the hell are Finn and Rey, what is this!?". Third most common complaint was about the annoying siren.

You'll note this is after a one minute teaser trailer with virtually no plot exposition and certainly no advanced characterization.

Let us not pretend that the "split fan base" arguing this subject is populated on one side solely by reasoned media critics. Does disliking a character mean you agree with these idiots quoted above? Of course not. But when you summon "the fandom" as support for an argument, you're associating yourself with a mob, and suggest they're talking with one voice. They're not. A good reason criticism of Rey achieved the volume it did was individuals such as those quoted above. These comments are being directed at a film they haven't seen. Draw your own conclusions about the intelligence of their criticism.

 

[G96 Saber]

Because the First Order are likely an opposing legitimate government and the New Republic have hampered themselves with a stupid de-militerisation act. Which was very liberal of them. And very silly.

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

People find reasons to hate Rey. If people hated Rey for the character she actually is then I could understand that. I even agree she is the least interesting of the new 3 so far. But they don't. They invent reasons to hate her. They ignore the actual movie, preferring instead to just make shit up about her so they can hate her more. And there are only two reasons I can think of for this: It is a new Star Wars movie and nerds will be nerds and hate new things or people will be sexist bastards and hate it when women get the spotlight.

Here's the thing, this right here, is what I'm talking about when it comes to people not taking "I don't like her" as reason enough. It's always you're either a fanboy(been called that when I routinely fall asleep watching through every movie in the series and honestly have only ever been interested in the ancient history of the setting that's now largely been rendered moot), or you just don't like women in leading hero roles(which could be true if you look at it a certain considering there's very few hero women that are actually done competently).

Neither of which contribute to much other than that point-scoring bullshit I mentioned. People have different tastes and standards, and those are largely being thrown out the window as legitimate because, as you said, "people aren't willing to accept women as heroes". And that mindset is limiting as all fuck.

My problem is not with people who don't like Rey. Rey has problems, the movie has legitimate issues. I disagree with neither of these statements, my best friend actually hates the movie and I think that is a completely legitimate position. But he doesn't have to make shit up to justify not liking the movie. He talks about actual issues in the actual movie.

I said my problem is with people who make shit up to hate Rey. Can you give me another reason they would go to such great lengths to hate on a character besides being unreasonable fans or sexist?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Because the First Order are likely an opposing legitimate government and the New Republic have hampered themselves with a stupid de-militerisation act. Which was very liberal of them. And very silly.

To be fair to the NGR, there had just been a galaxy spanning civil war that had raged for decades, following a previous war that had raged for years. Billions of lives had been lost. I imagine there was a rather vocal public outcry for demilitarization. That a bunch of hard line militants fled to the Outer Rim and formed a terrorist organization wasn't something entirely within their ability to control.

 

[Redryhno]

...(and when you need two more movies to answer questions in the FIRST one there's a bit problem, this is part of why Kara no Kyokai will never be considered as mainstream amazing as it is like something like Madoka).

Uh, not really. It's kind of standard operating procedure for trilogies, particularly more modern day trilogies that are functionally a single story arc broken over a 6 hour span. I'll never understand this bizarre insistence that films be 100% self contained (ushered forth for the first time regarding Rey and Force Awakens). It literally disallows any kind of mystery, cliffhanger or obscured plot point.

I was mostly talking about how more questions were forced to be asked than alot of people were interested in and answers were given for questions nobody was interested in in the first place. And as much as I dislike doing the comparison(I really do), how many questions were raised in the originals that persisted over the entire thing? There was "who/what is Vader", "Who's the guy in the robes", and "how's that work"(on various things). In this one alone we've got questions on who every hero is and how it came to this, what the significance of Vader is to Ren to be this obsessed with him(it's alluded to, but not really answered), who is actually in charge over Ren, the First Order in general, the state of the galaxy in general because they pulled politics into it, etc..

That's like ten large questions raised on characters alone. Even in ANH the majority of them were covered over the course of the first movie(and the ones that weren't largely are relatively minor to the overall narrative and are easily taken care of later on).

And I'm not even condemning it for having it, I'm condemning it for how much/many there are. Series can do this kind of thing easily because they have the time and format to answer them without being forced to cut characters/content out of the show/story/etc. Just too much is what the majority of my complaints end up tying back into. And yeah, I sorta went off there, didn't mean to do that. I've got no problems with questions being left unanswered, just there's too much for them to decently cover them without hand-waving and giving a two-sentence explanation(which they did in the originals, but they also did it with characters that were relatively minor by that point).

 

[axlryder]

Saw where this thread was going real fast. I'll preface this by saying that, in general, I think Rey's character is either good or just okay, depending on her portrayal in next few films.

I think the main issue with Rey's characterization (for me) is not that she does what she does in the film. It's that her besting Kylo Ren via the force twice felt like it undercut both the film's tension and Kylo's character and gave her too many individual "force guided" moments (of which there were like 4-5 throughout the film). The force interrogation scene especially felt like a bit of lazy writing (despite it having been set up) that gave her character an unnecessarily early power boost. It ultimately made the final battle less impacting, despite being a really cool fight.

I would have preferred it if they had mentally battled in the interrogation room, only to have them come to a standstill or maybe have Kylo just barely getting the edge on her before getting distracted by a diversion (maybe accidentally caused by Finn and the gang?) and then have her escape by stealing a key off of him (this is obviously just an example, I'm sure one could make a more compelling scenario that made use of her resourcefulness as a character), and then perhaps they have another mental battle at the END of the movie, during the duel, where she bests him with both physically and mentally which would have led to that fight feeling far more climactic. It also would have better illustrated that, despite Kylo's last act of resolution, he's now only more mentally conflicted and still too weak in the force, rather than just appearing potentially fatigued.

Also, while it's obvious that the film is hinting at her lineage or history being the source of her preternatural talent (I'm assuming she was one of the last surviving students of Luke or something) her character's natural grit doesn't feel like it gets too heavily tested beyond the beginning of the film, despite all of the peril she encounters, which really negatively impacts how winsome she is as a character (again, for me). I mean, the most distress she feels in the film was the PTSD style flashback/force awakening, and while I realize the symbolic significance of that scene, when she nearly gets killed like 10 different times her jimmies seem comparatively less rustled. That said, it might be that they're setting her up like that so she gets knocked in the face with reality that much harder in the next movie (and who better to do it than Luke?) If that is the case, I just wish they didn't have to make the new order look so incompetent (and the Republic, by extension, even MORE incompetent) to capitalize on it.

To get back to the OP, the film seems to skim around too many things, hoping to appeal not only to adult audiences and haters of the prequels by implying a lot, but also to the kids by making the the plot easy to follow. I don't think they quite hit the balance they were going for, resulting in too many plot holes and a fairly unsatisfying standalone viewing experience. If I had known the movie was like this, I'd have just waited until all three came out before watching them. I'm sure they'll feel more cohesive as a unit (plus with the deleted scenes).

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I was mostly talking about how more questions were forced to be asked than alot of people were interested in and answers were given for questions nobody was interested in in the first place. And as much as I dislike doing the comparison(I really do), how many questions were raised in the originals that persisted over the entire thing? There was "who/what is Vader", "Who's the guy in the robes", and "how's that work"(on various things). In this one alone we've got questions on who every hero is and how it came to this, what the significance of Vader is to Ren to be this obsessed with him(it's alluded to, but not really answered), who is actually in charge over Ren, the First Order in general, the state of the galaxy in general because they pulled politics into it, etc..

That's like ten large questions raised on characters alone. Even in ANH the majority of them were covered over the course of the first movie(and the ones that weren't largely are relatively minor to the overall narrative and are easily taken care of later on).

And I'm not even condemning it for having it, I'm condemning it for how much/many there are. Series can do this kind of thing easily because they have the time and format to answer them without being forced to cut characters/content out of the show/story/etc. Just too much is what the majority of my complaints end up tying back into. And yeah, I sorta went off there, didn't mean to do that. I've got no problems with questions being left unanswered, just there's too much for them to decently cover them without hand-waving and giving a two-sentence explanation(which they did in the originals, but they also did it with characters that were relatively minor by that point).

Well, if you hate mysteries and unanswered questions, then that's certainly something you can lay at the feet of J.J. "Mystery Box" Abrams. Guy never found a question he wasn't hyped to not answer. Star Wars does have a bit of a history with shocking reveals/mysteries, most particularly in the form of Luke's parentage, but I don't think it's excessively uncharitable to suggest Abrams gets a little carried away with it. Personally I *like* texturing in Rey using flashbacks and intimation, but I can see it not being for everyone, particularly given the film struggles at times to be fully congruent due to time pressures and a surfeit of characters, plot lines and activity.

I would have preferred it if they had mentally battled in the interrogation room, only to have them come to a standstill or maybe have Kylo just barely getting the edge on her.

I think something important to consider is that Rey, while certainly central to events, is not the only character of significance in this film. She has echoes of Luke in her characterization so it's easy to see her as "the protagonist" and assume the trilogy will swirl around her, but I think Ben Solo could be argued to be equally as significant a character. He's not just a prop with a red lightsaber on hand to inform Rey's characterization, she's also there to inform his. Her resisting his will and seeing his fear and doubt was significant for his characterization, followed by the scene of his intense discomfort when Hux sees him without his mask. When she does overcome him, she does so by slipping...ever so momentarily...into a trance like state and touching the Force...something he's unable to do because he's a storm of emotion, pain and anger. She provokes intense anxiety and uncertainty in him. He flips his shit the first time he hears of her involvement, he treats her gently in captivity, he makes a bid to become her teacher after beating her to the edge of exhaustion. He has a complex relationship with her, possibly a familial one. Unlike Vader, who was mostly there to elucidate the perils of Luke's interaction with The Force and the potential downside of unprepared investigation of his newfound powers, Ben is a full fledged character. Possibly the most richly detailed and explored character of TFA.

 

[Redryhno]

Well, if you hate mysteries and unanswered questions, then that's certainly something you can lay at the feet of J.J. "Mystery Box" Abrams. Guy never found a question he wasn't hyped to not answer. Star Wars does have a bit of a history with shocking reveals/mysteries, most particularly in the form of Luke's parentage, but I don't think it's excessively uncharitable to suggest Abrams gets a little carried away with it. Personally I *like* texturing in Rey using flashbacks and intimation, but I can see it not being for everyone, particularly given the film struggles at times to be fully congruent due to time pressures and a surfeit of characters, plot lines and activity.

Yeah, but again, that was ONE absolutely massive reveal. This time around, they've spent so much time(or at least implied time) on these characters that for them to not have something equivalent each is a bit of a disservice to them and a bit of a waste of the audience's time.

Like I said, nothing wrong with having it. I genuinely like not being able to know where a story is going, but there's few that are actually done in a way that doesn't have the chorus of "lol randumb" in the background somewhere or are frustratingly predictable. My complaint, again, is that they've just put in too much of it. Too much that alot is going to be ignored/cut/forgotten to be able to continue their somewhat coherent narrative in the two-hour runtime of the next two movies.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

They were supposed to be faster, more maneuverable and more heavily armed. It's not like they were some obscure EU element either; they featured prominently in the Battle of Endor. If you really want to split hairs, the massively OP Tie Defender from Tie Fighter <a href=http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE/D_Defender>is part of the new canon.

TIE Interceptors and Defenders were also ludicrously expensive. The Empire has always gone for a quantity-over-quality, and projection-specific, doctrine. The Empire fielded Interceptors and Defenders because they needed them, not because they wanted them as the fighters were actually in contradiction to their military doctrine.

To use an EU example, the Tector-class Star Destroyer is head and shoulders superior to the Imperial II-class. It's up-armored, with superior shields, and a hell of a lot more firepower than an ImpDeuce. Nothing short of a Super-class, or arguably a Liberator-class SoroSuub cruiser, gives it a run for its money. It's also a lot more expensive than an ImpDeuce, and inferior for force projection as an ImpDeuce is a battle-carrier.

[Yes, I'm drawing heavily upon D6 for this. No, I don't care.]

Yet the First Order stubbornly insists on sticking with the basic Tie Fighter design despite upgrading just about everything else in their military. I guess when you're building a planet sized superweapon you have to reallocate funds from something.

Why stray from a proven design when that design can be upgraded?

 

[Kolby Jack]

Rey by comparison was a starving orphan scavenger who somehow managed to become a better mechanic then Han Solo

Wrong. She never one-ups Han, at best she is as knowledgeable about him. And considering she grew up (that's about 20 years) exploring wrecked starships, LIVING in wrecked starships, and living on the same planet that the Falcon was marooned on and WORKING for the guy who "owned" it, your idea that she just spontaneously knew this stuff is crazy.

on her first flight was better then two literal born and raised ace pilots

Um, who? Han? Luke? Poe? She flew well, but we never saw any comparison to any other pilots except TIE pilots, who are... TIE pilots. Poe was even more amazing of a pilot in the film, but he's explicitly described as an experienced ace. But Rey, who spent TWENTY YEARS on Jakku around spaceships, can't possibly be a good pilot because... ???

could use the force better then people who had trained all their lives with it moments after discovering its existence

Wrong again. She bested Kylo Ren in a mind probe because Kylo didn't expect her to be strong in the force and so he underestimated her. She certainly wasn't as skilled as a master Jedi at the mind trick. It didn't work the first time on a STORM TROOPER. Obi-Wan flicked his fingers without even giving a crap and the storm troopers in the first film accepted it instantly. Rey took a shot in the dark and it paid off, because she BELIEVED. If you go by the original films, the Force is mostly about belief, something Rey had in abundance.

and could out dual someone who had trained with a weapon she had never even touched (I know Ben was injured but that fight still was the literal opposite of what basic storytelling should have made it if they wanted us to not think Rey's arc is already complete).

"Basic Storytelling" doesn't mean shit. Finn managed against Kylo Ren too, even wounding him. Rey was on the verge of losing against the badly wounded Kylo Ren, too, until she calmed down and, yes, BELIEVED. *gasp* Kind of like Luke firing the torpedoes into the Death Star?!?! And if you believe Rey showed much skill in that fight, you don't know a thing about swordsmanship. Anybody can pick up a damn sword and be okay with it.

I'm not even arguing that Rey had obvious flaws beyond not wanting to leave Jakku, nor am I arguing that she's an especially well-written character. I'm just pointing out that this Mary Sue tripe people keep spewing is idiotic. The details of Rey's skills have precedence but you Mary Sue-cryers refuse to acknowledge them, and the ONLY reason I can understand why people do this is because of sexism, even if they'll twist and contort as much as they can to try and dodge that label.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Um, who? Han? Luke? Poe? She flew well, but we never saw any comparison to any other pilots except TIE pilots, who are... TIE pilots. Poe was even more amazing of a pilot in the film, but he's explicitly described as an experienced ace. But Rey, who spent TWENTY YEARS on Jakku around spaceships, can't possibly be a good pilot because... ???

I have no idea why people don't tear Poe apart like they do Rey. That single shot in which he destroyed like thirteen TIE fighters and blasts several troopers, doing sharp turns, and Finn yells "That's one hell of a pilot!" was absolutely absurd. An ace pilot is lucky to shoot down five fighters in their career. In that one scene, he became like a triple ace pilot.

There's several potential reasons why no one tears Poe apart. The first is that he is a secondary character without a lot of screen time, so it's not so 'in your face.'

The rest of the reasons are depressing, to say the least, and fairly offensive to the 'Rey Hate' club.

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

Um, who? Han? Luke? Poe? She flew well, but we never saw any comparison to any other pilots except TIE pilots, who are... TIE pilots. Poe was even more amazing of a pilot in the film, but he's explicitly described as an experienced ace. But Rey, who spent TWENTY YEARS on Jakku around spaceships, can't possibly be a good pilot because... ???

I have no idea why people don't tear Poe apart like they do Rey. That single shot in which he destroyed like thirteen TIE fighters and blasts several troopers, doing sharp turns, and Finn yells "That's one hell of a pilot!" was absolutely absurd. An ace pilot is lucky to shoot down five fighters in their career. In that one scene, he became like a triple ace pilot.

Dear god, you are right. I just went and found that scene. That is completely absurd. For some reason I remembered him taking out only two TIEs and a ground target. I guess my brain just rejected it, and I missed that scene on my rewatch because of the baby. I do remember thinking it was pretty stupid when I first saw it (though I still like the character.)

And everyone focuses on complaining about Rey's piloting ability in the same movie.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

From what I can gather, without looking into the official canon tie-ins and relying solely on my inferences with the movie, the Empire is gone or at least so whipped they cannot fight anymore, the New Republic has a token military force but doesn't believe there will be any larger threats in the galaxy to worry about.
The First Order, however, seems to be made up of younger folks who're bent on trying to be the Empire but not quite actually fitting the bill. I mean they hit the visual notes, Stormtroopers/White Armor, dark uniformed officers, badass force-user in a mask and cloak, large superweapon capable of destroying planets, Emperor-like figure in the shadows and running the show through large-scale hologram chat. They seem like they desperately want to rebuild the past glory of the Empire itself. But they're not the Empire.
I'd like to point out that none of the people you see who're high up in the First Order are older than perhaps 40, except Snoke who we have no clue what species he is. General Hux looks to be maybe in his thirties, a relatively young age for a General. Phasma is about 35 according to what I've read. Ren is somewhere in his 20's I'd guess.
Anyway, there's a lot more going on that we don't know about yet that I'm hoping Ep. 8 and 9 actually delve into that gives us some more background on why certain things are happening.

On the subject of the Rey/Mary Sue thing: People, she fucks up things. She's not uber accomplished in the Force, she holds off a severely wounded Ren and nowhere have we learned if Ren is anywhere near fully trained. In fact he's shown to be powerful, yes but he's also shown to be extremely immature. But look at his lightsaber, its poorly constructed and he isn't that good with it. So we're not talking about a guy who is absolutely trained and deadly, but rather a scared and angry kid who's trying so hard to be Vader (and failing miserably). Once again, the theme of the wannabe Empire shows.