Alice: Madness Returns [Spoilers] Ending

Yassen

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I'll say it once again, there will be major spoilers for Alice in this thread so if you don't want to know don't enter.

Right, well during the moments in the game where I'm not jumping from floating platform to floating platform I was desperately trying to understand the games plot. For most of the game I was having difficulty understanding just exactly what I was working towards, all I seemed to do was go from one area to the next looking for someone. Bits of Alice's past start to come up, like her realising she couldn't have been the one to start the fire since she wasn't there and neither was her cat and as the pieces fell into place everything started getting clearer.

From the start I despised the psychiatrist that "helps" Alice, I've been studying psychology for 2 and a half years and even people who don't can tell you repressing and forgetting a traumatic event is the worst possible thing you could ever do to cope. That sort of shit can even turn you blind. Imagine my delight when my hatred was completely justified.

I wasn't really surprised this basterd was the true enemy, what did surprise me was his actual plans and the symbolism of his Wonderland counterpart "The Dollmaker". The psychiatrist is a child rapist, easy enough to understand and gives me every reason to hate him, but he's also using his skills to essentially wipe away the memories of the children he "councils" and making them into child prostitutes, truly believing he's doing a service to the community. This is represented by the Dollmaker, a gigantic puppeteer who kidnaps the mad children in Wonderland and turns them into featureless dolls. Empty minded and just used for appearances. Sickening.

When Alice fights the Dollmaker in Wonderland while talking to the Psychiatrist about his plans, she's essentially struggling with her own mind to confront him. When she wins something interesting happens. Her real world self transforms into Wonderland Alice, and she appropiately pushes the basterd in front of a train, one of the most appropiate deaths I've ever seen (considering the Dollmaker was destroying Wonderland with the Infernal Train.) And then things get tragic. As she walks out, London has seemed to mix with Wonderland. Alice finally snapped. By saving Wonderland and avenging her family, she truly went insane and is stuck in Wonderland forever, mixing it with the real world so she can no longer tell the difference.

As you can imagine, I find this ending to be quite powerful and did enjoy the story once it started making sense. But what were your thoughts on the ending or the game in general? Did you have a different interpretation of the ending?
 

9thRequiem

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I saw the ending in a much more positive light : That wonderland was her refuge to escape the real world, and in merging wonderland into London the real world became tolerable. That she could now function in the real world through the lens of a delusion.

I liked the fact that a lot of the story came through the memories as well - a lot of them even early on hint at what actually happened, and allow you to work out the truth before you're told it.
 

weker

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9thRequiem said:
I saw the ending in a much more positive light : That wonderland was her refuge to escape the real world, and in merging wonderland into London the real world became tolerable. That she could now function in the real world through the lens of a delusion.

I liked the fact that a lot of the story came through the memories as well - a lot of them even early on hint at what actually happened, and allow you to work out the truth before you're told it.
And this is why Games are art XD
Sounds really good sadly the reviews are being way to harsh from what I have seen as they dont promote the theme that well.
 

Konufis

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I find the ending really nice, but i wonder if you collect all the memory fragment, do you get any special ending? Or do you get the same ending no matter what you do?
 

Uber Evil

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I am actually still pretty depressed. He raped your goddamned sister and killed your family. What the fuck. Her memories make it even worse, as it shows that her family life was really good. So yeah, it put me into a depression of sorts, and that's why I love it.
EDIT: It also doesn't help that she looks a helluva a lot like the girl I like.
 

lagomorph

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I 'm not sure that interpretation of the ending is the right one. For starters, the infernal train is a motif through out Alice's "adventure." This suggests to me that what we're seeing is her mentally confronting a past event in which she murdered the good doctor by pushing him off the platform. The denizens of Wonderland try to warn her off the path and some of the things they say about "finding out that you're guilty" and "ignorance is bliss" lead me to believe that Alice's current mental breakdown is a result of the murder. She's reliving the events that lead her to that pivotal moment. None of the game takes place in real time. That's why its reality so easily breaks down into fantasy (what we during play perceive as her "madness.") I think the final scene can be read differently as well. Alice isn't stuck in Wonderland. If you notice, the path ahead is blocked and she's barred from returning. It's safe but, it's no longer hers to inhabit. When the Cheshire Cat tells her that she can't go home, I don't think home is the real world. I think it's Wonderland. By trading her girlhood fantasy for the truth she has, in essence, grown up. There are a lot of bits of dialogue in the final act that lend creedence to this idea.

edit: Or it could be poetic justice ;)
 

ramboondiea

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i found the the merging of wonderland in the end confirm my suspicions that the "real" world isnt as real as we think, but her own spin on the darkerside of her mind, so all of that stuff is happening but her mind, just like when shes in wonderland shes seeing it differently then it really is, so the merging at the end was that she is still insane, but she has struck up a sort of balance. so i reckon the game is more of a representation of the mental strugle of the ego id and super igo, or atleast that how i saw it
 

EHKOS

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Feb 28, 2010
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weker said:
9thRequiem said:
I saw the ending in a much more positive light : That wonderland was her refuge to escape the real world, and in merging wonderland into London the real world became tolerable. That she could now function in the real world through the lens of a delusion.

I liked the fact that a lot of the story came through the memories as well - a lot of them even early on hint at what actually happened, and allow you to work out the truth before you're told it.
And this is why Games are art XD
Sounds really good sadly the reviews are being way to harsh from what I have seen as they dont promote the theme that well.
You need to read mine.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.294670-Alice-Madness-Returns-Review-by-EHKOS

I found the game to be amazing and I loved the ending. All through the cutscene I was hoping she would push him XD
 

Moeez

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The ending fucked me up. You worded it really well, I liked how subtle the storytelling is with the memories (reminded me of Prototype except more relevant), being cryptic until when it matters. Starting from reveals about who started the fire, how the family members functioned, how it all went down, the change of the Queen to Lizzie, the mental asylum straightjacket sequence, the reason for the forgetting, and then to Dr Bumby's real operations with the orphans. I actually felt like throwing up when you come out into London near the end and see the orphans as ghosts with the number labels. The torture these innocent children went through and yet being turned into amnesiacs, then knowing that they were made into sex slaves. WHAT THE FUCK?!

The very ending, I just had to take all of Wonderland in. Seeing it healthy, Spicy Horse did an amazing accomplishment with that scene where it almost looked near CGI with the environmental detail and colours.

Will have me thinking for quite a while because of the bittersweet ending. Wonderland is safe, but Alice has lost the real world. But what kind of world would she go back to? No one she can trust in the real world, no one to be friends, and no one to take care of her. Just right now, it made me think of the ending to Animatrix's "Matriculated" where she's given herself to Wonderland, just as the robot gives himself to the virtual world because everyone has died in the real world.
 

iristella

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Jul 14, 2011
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Actually the ending depressed the hell out of me. Main reason for that is that I don't think Alice ever left the Asylum. She is shown to be lobotomized at some point so whatever we saw past that point is her own inner state. She reclaimed her memories, she fought her demons but justice was never served in the real world. She can't go back there. She came to terms with reality what happened and her part in this,so wonderland seems to merge with reality but I think that the end of the journey was more of an inner process rather than a revenge quest.

First post here so please treat me kindly. :)
 

Plutonian

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Jul 19, 2011
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The shrink visibly reacts (in horror) to Alice's sudden change in attire as she turns on him at the station. This would indicate the event (i.e., the miraculous clothing change) actually occurred. That some part of Wonderland is real... and that something, at the very end, gets translated through. It was Wonderland-Alice he faced in the end... not London-Alice.

I seem to recall a letter from Alice's original asylum doctor to her new shrink, which mentioned that the cat Alice kept following in London did, indeed, sound suspiciously like the one in her 'delusions'. IIRC, it was a bonus download located on the EA-Alice-American McGee website.
 

Sniper Team 4

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I was happy the bad guy caught the train. Very pleased with that. I figured it out somewhere in the fifth chapter though. One of the memories suddenly put everything into place for me and I remember growing cold once I realized.

I'll be honest. I totally missed that London and Wonderland merged. I simply thought she was back in Wonderland. I viewed it as a happy ending because she's finally free, and can come and go to Wonderland as she pleases.
As for Alice changing in front of the man, I'm not sure she actually did. Or at least, not her clothes. I think what he reacted to was her sudden change of character. She went from a raving girl who was utterly helpless--someone he had control over, even then--to a strong girl with a clear intent in her entire posture. I've seen it happen in real life where someone just gives a bully a look and it freezes the attacker up. That's how I viewed it. Alice changing her clothes I think was done so that people would understand what just happened. Or, maybe it really did happen the way it looks.

Question: Was anyone else going, "Wait, how did she end up in a river?" once the second chapter started? First she was on top of a roof during the day, next thing she knows, she's being fished out of a river. How did she get there? Why didn't she drown? Why wasn't anyone looking for her?
 

Valagetti

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Aug 20, 2010
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I thought the story was great. It wasn't about saving the world or some huge gesture, it was about saving her world. And the end was quite ironic, I like the take on the story, it was an overall good experience to me. Mainly because I could understand and relate to Alice very easily!
 

Voulan

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The merging of London with Wonderland could be interpreted in many different ways. One way which I haven't seen mentioned so far is that the blatant and horrible reality of what really happened and what she was at present being put through really hit Alice at the point when she killed Bumby, and so to escape the true horror of her reality she merged Wonderland with London in order for her to never truly face what her life really has become. The Cheshire Cat's line can emphasize this further - Alice has finally "snapped" like Yassen said earlier, and by fully merging real life with her safe haven, Alice can cope with all she's learnt. Alice cannot hope nor want to go back to her dreary yet ignorant exsistence.
 

Carey Ting

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Actually The Queen of Hearts sent her back into her memories of the asylum. That's where she figured out the Dr. Bumby was the one.
 

Asdl Tldr Nedm

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American McGee stated that Londonland represents Alice "mastering" her reality, rendering it as "a better place" where she can use her "abilities". But there's no hint all along the game about any sort of magic or overlapping symbolism taking place: whenever London gets funny is because Alice effectively started to hallucinate. Alice simply had to assume her Wonderland persona in the real world to dare killing Bumby (what shocked him was just her determined expression), which detonated an endless hallucination. In the end, Alice recovered her memories (guilt included) and restored Wonderland... but she snapped alright. That's the aesop: one can't endure reality unless becoming exactly as much crazy as necessary.