All Skyrim needs is...

[Growley]

Imo skyrim's problem (and I say this with steam-logged 190 hours of playtime) is that it's just too goddamn shallow.

The world is large and ready to be explored, but there's not actually much to do despite all that space, you can join a faction and be the leader of it within a handful of quests, despite more suitable leaders (who won't run off across the world fighting dragons) being available and everyone will rehearse the same tired lines to you over and over again irrespective of what you've done. (Although, the lack of psychic Oblivion guards is a welcome change).

Skyrim looks great, and the addition of dragons was a nice touch, but I think it went too broad, and in the process lost some depth.

EDIT: With regards to the comment on faction quests; I know, in Oblivion etc you could still become leader of a faction and then continue running off across the world, but the fact is you completed so many more quests (and the faction story steered things in the right direction)so that you actually felt like you'd earned your position. In all the factions in Skyrim (with the possible exception of your final position in the Dark Brotherhood) I just don't feel like the character even plausibly earned their inevitable position at the top of their faction.

EDIT(2): Just read what someone else said, and the stupid goddman annoying blatant leading the player through every little thing has to go. Removing the markers won't make any difference, it's ingrained into the game. If you want to skip the 'meat' of the quest, and just go and kill the final guy, you should frikkin be able to. This is something (in a number of places) Fallout: New Vegas did reasonably well. Often, killing someone integral to one quest or stepping out of line would spawn another quest instead of just failing it; and you could often skip most of the quest and go straight to the end if you knew what you were doing.

 

[The White Hunter]

Just port over Dark Souls' combat. There, 10 times better.

I read that as "insert actual combat over wild flailing."

OT: Skyrim needs a bit more variety, maybe some extra guilds and things, like a reason to hunt animals, a reason to be creative in combat, more varied missions than carrying out "Go here. Smash bandits with hammer. Take their stuff. Return important shiny to lazy and vapid NPC #765."

That said I enjoyed Skyrim, though I started again recently and discovered a heavy armour wearing orc with a warhammer essentially breaks the game.

 

[Jezzascmezza]

I acknowledge the game isn't perfect, but I still had a lot of fun with it, and played it more hours than I'd care to admit.
I know it's a little bit hand-holding, and maybe not as complex as previous Elder Scrolls games, but the large, detailed world and the strong sense of character progression were enough for me...

 

[w9496]

SPOILER: I would also like an option to side with Paarthunax in that one Blades quest instead of killing him. END SPOILER

you can. just don't kill him.

Well, yeah, there is that. I was thinking of actually killing the Blades though, which you can't do.

 

[Aaron Foltz]

Nothing mods can't fix. The Moonpath to Elsweyr mod looks great and it will totally expanded my play time since I'm try to cap out.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

I have literally gone through every single cave, Dwemer ruin, velothi tower, and old crypt, in Morrowind, and I can safely say that 90% of the time, there was quite literally nothing of value in those places, except the same generic magic rings I had gotten in the last 50 caves, or yet another magical sword that I had also gotten in the last 50 caves.

Most loot in Morrowind was vendor trash, I have kept more loot in Skyrim, because Skyrim's loot was actually useful, compared to Morrowind.

As for exploring in Morrowind, I never felt like I was earning the loot in Morrowind, or that I was doing any more "discovering" then I am in Skyrim.

Dungeons didn't feel like a challange or interesting, they felt like the game designers randomly level locked places for no reason, and when I ran into a place that was level locked I felt like the game devs were saying "HERES ALL THIS COOL STUFF, TOO BAD YOU CAN'T EXPERIENCE IT RIGHT NOW, GO OUT INTO THE WORLD AND GRIND YOUR ASS OFF TO RAISE UR SKILLS"

Having static monsters only turned the game into a boring grind were you were forced to go ut and kill 500 cliff racers to level your skills just so you can go into a cave that they put level 30 monsters in when the quest that leads you there was level 5.

Having to grind didn't make the game feel more rewarding in any good way, it just made the game feel really grindy.

Morrowind felt like a MMO at times, but not a good MMO like guild Wars 2 is, a grindy Korean MMO where anything remotely fun was level locked until you went out and killed 500 generic enemies to level up.

Agreed, most of the loot was vendor trash. But is that really that different from Skyrim and Oblivion? Most of the loot in those games is also vendor trash. And if you weren't playing a weird monk or something you should have found tons of items your character could use. I don't know how to account for that because I never had that experience and I know, for a fact, that there is useful gear around and I recall many of the locations it could be found. Many of the tombs and things did not have epic lootz because most of the tombs were very short and along the beaten path. Generally speaking, taking on a challenge was rewarded. I really don't see that big a difference in the usefulness of the loot. Even if I did, I don't see a reason to attribute that to the static loot system. I don't really understand what the connection there is. And finally, putting something static in the world means there is something in it to discover. Finding a piece of dwemer armor in a dwemer ruin was exciting. Finding a good item was discovering something. The thought of finding generic loot unconnected to the place I found it in that spawned in a random chest doesn't get my heart pounding.

In Oblivion, I felt less free, not more. Instead of having a playground where I could tackle challenges when I was ready for them, the challenge conformed to my level every time. I felt rail-roaded. I felt like I was treading water. I couldn't take on bigger challenges in hopes of better rewards, or visit a lower level location for a quick buck. The experience felt more directed and stifling, not less. Because it was in fact more directed, even if I could travel the whole map at level one and crush everything like a god, which you just about could. Leveling and progression felt totally pointless, probably because it was in actual fact somewhat pointless and actually counterproductive.

I don't see how the game is more of a grind when there are leveled monsters. Your skills still go up the same way. If you found a challenge that was too difficult, you just did another quest or something until you built yourself up to it. It was level-locked sure but overcoming that obstacle never involved grinding, at least unless you chose that over the alternatives. I never grinded (ground? greended?) in Morrowind. You didn't have to do that and I'm positive most people didn't. I guess if you choose not to do quests and things you could call what's left over "grinding" but I don't see how that is different from more recent titles.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

IT NEEDS CHILD KILLING.

But seriously, how does it not have...mini-bosses...already? They're called trolls...or...dragons, or something. Besides, I found every reason to wander out into the wilderness. I spent more of the game doing that than the actual quests. I think it's pretty much fine in that department.

 

[Gitty101]

Just port over Dark Souls' combat. There, 10 times better.

Listen to this man! He knows what needs to be done!

 

[Azalin137]

For me....

I hated all of the Elder Scrolls games, Morrowwind was a piece of shit on toast, a decent story with god awful combat. Oblivion was a step up with an open world that I got lost in (not in a good way) and a eyebrow wiggling game that annoyed the piss out of me. SO out comes Skyrim and I was determined to finish it. After 130 hours and many MANY bugs later I gave up and realized that this series although pretty is beyond saving. I love Bethesda products.....but Elder Scrolls just needs to be buried in my back yard never to be seen again. Fallout however..........

 

[Chairman Miaow]

Just port over Dark Souls' combat. There, 10 times better.

I got ninja'd was about to say exactly that xD

Also there is this mod that improves main quest descriptions so you can play effectively without using the marker. I'm gonna use it if I make a new character.

I would actually love for them to do that for Oblivion/Morrowind, but Skyrim needs so much changed for me to enjoy it, not even a complete overhaul of the combat would change that.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Agreed, most of the loot was vendor trash. But is that really that different from Skyrim and Oblivion? Most of the loot in those games is also vendor trash.

The difference is that Oblivion and Skyrim had vendor trash that was my level, and thus more expensive, and thus worth all the money I had to spend to repair/buy potions etc. etc. In Morrowind, dungeon delving was normally a net loss for you because of the static loot being always so low level that it couldn't pay for the armor repairs.

And if you weren't playing a weird monk or something you should have found tons of items your character could use. I don't know how to account for that because I never had that experience and I know, for a fact, that there is useful gear around and I recall many of the locations it could be found. Many of the tombs and things did not have epic lootz because most of the tombs were very short and along the beaten path. Generally speaking, taking on a challenge was rewarded. I really don't see that big a difference in the usefulness of the loot. Even if I did, I don't see a reason to attribute that to the static loot system. I don't really understand what the connection there is. And finally, putting something static in the world means there is something in it to discover. Finding a piece of dwemer armor in a dwemer ruin was exciting. Finding a good item was discovering something. The thought of finding generic loot unconnected to the place I found it in that spawned in a random chest doesn't get my heart pounding.

I looted nearly every box in Morrowind, and rarely found anything useful because most boxes had the exact same items as the last. In Morrowind there was this small set of super generic items that filled up 90% of the containers, anything good was pre-placed, it killed any desire for me to look through boxes because I knew they just had the exact same thing as the last box.

Finding a good item really wasn't discovering anything, I didn't feel like it was a reward for real work, I felt like it was just a good item at the end of a boring boring grind. It's like getting that good item in a MMO after killing the same boss 50000000 times, I dont feel like its a real reward, i just feel like it was a boring boring grind.

It also killed replayability because every dungeon was always the same as the last time you went it, it never changed, In Skyrim I can replay the same dungeon 100 times, and get different things each time, its always fresh and exciting.

Furthermore, Skyrim loot containers are set based on where they are, Dwemer containers have a Dwemer loot list, old Nordic chests have a noridc loot list, etc. etc. Loot is not random, and is tied into the place.

In Oblivion, I felt less free, not more. Instead of having a playground where I could tackle challenges when I was ready for them, the challenge conformed to my level every time. I felt rail-roaded. I felt like I was treading water. I couldn't take on bigger challenges in hopes of better rewards, or visit a lower level location for a quick buck. The experience felt more directed and stifling, not less. Because it was in fact more directed, even if I could travel the whole map at level one and crush everything like a god, which you just about could. Leveling and progression felt totally pointless, probably because it was in actual fact somewhat pointless and actually counterproductive.

I felt the exact opposite, in Morrowind I felt like the entire world was crafted into a very specific series of areas designed for different level ranges.

I felt like I was being directed into specific dungeons, because everything was level keyed. Its like MMOs were you have a starter area thats level 1-10, then a second area that's 10-20, then another area that's 20-30, the world didn't feel open, the world didn't feel like it wanted me to explore it, the world felt very closed off, and like the developer was holding my hand telling me "don't go there just yet, you have to do the things here first to level up"

I don't see how the game is more of a grind when there are leveled monsters. Your skills still go up the same way. If you found a challenge that was too difficult, you just did another quest or something until you built yourself up to it. It was level-locked sure but overcoming that obstacle never involved grinding, at least unless you chose that over the alternatives. I never grinded (ground? greended?) in Morrowind. You didn't have to do that and I'm positive most people didn't. I guess if you choose not to do quests and things you could call what's left over "grinding" but I don't see how that is different from more recent titles.

Because Morrowind quests, just like everything else, was level keyed, but they never gave you ah int to what level it was designed for, and you couldn't get any more quests until you did that one.

There was numerous points in the game were I had done every quest in towns, and all the quests for the local guild, and it still wasnt enough to get past the next thing because Bethesda decided to randomly put something 10 levels higher up the road I had to go down.

when left with
-no quests in town
-no available guild quests until you complete the ones your on
I was forced to go out into the world, aggro a crap ton of cliff racers, and then kill them to raise my skills.

 

[Phototoxin]

Solution to the OPs problem : skyrim nexus, IE mods!

 

[Cpu46]

My only problem with Skyrim is that the actual quests were a bit more bland than Oblivion's. I had a lot fewer moments where I would finish a quest going WOW!

However when you were just diving into random dungeons and exploring. There were a lot of dungeons where I would go through a wide variety of foes. Like the one where I started in a cave fighting bandits, which then transitioned into a Dwenmer ruin with centurions that was overrun with Falmer on the lower floors.

3 enemy types in a dungeon is a 'wide variety' ?

I meant 3 enemy factions. Like I said I have gone through Bandits (with archers and swordsman), Dwenmer (centurions, spider things, ect.), then Falmer (with their bug pet things) in the same dungeon. Sure oblivion had a few of these instances where you had several types of foe in the same dungeon but Skyrim had far more of them.

Not saying that it makes Skyrim a perfect game but it made it a better in my mind and kept dungeon diving interesting for me.

 

[IamLEAM1983]

http://i.imgur.com/HlrUp.jpg

...May I make a suggestion?

Play a different game. If you're not having fun, then why would you play it? Or just hunt around for some mods that might work for you.

This.

I understand that criticism is always and always will be valid, but starting a thread to more or less decry things about a game you don't like in the hopes that they will change when they probably won't is kind of counter-productive.

I'm coming at Skyrim from a different angle, personally. I'm not looking for mobs or gripping combat or even a more immediate crafting system. Some people might actually want a more arcade-ish slant to be applied to an Elder Scrolls title - and that's valid. I've played other games where crafting was as simple as buying shit from a vendor and putting it together on your own. I've played Demon's Souls and Dark Souls, so I do get why some people would prefer this form of combat over Skyrim's. I've played my share of MMOs, in which smart devs make sure every little corner is packed with groups of enemies waiting to pounce on you.

I agree about some of the criticisms being caused by an improper understanding of the game. If you're picking up Skyrim and expect a loot hunt or a killfest, you'd better start looking elsewhere. Skyrim (and indeed, most ES titles) have never been about mobs. Enemies, unless expected by the normal process of a questline or dungeon, are chance encounters.

Wolves don't attack humans unless they're seriously hungry. Assuming there's no shortage of elk and deer in Skyrim, this could explain why you only spot two or three aggressive wolves, and not, say, an entire freaking pack. Similarly, most bandits seem to be smart enough to hole up in abandoned forts, considering the Empire's zero-tolerance policy on crime.

You can't play an Elder Scrolls game for its mechanics. You have to play it for its lore, for the way the world is fleshed out around you. The irony is that it succeeds more at this than some of the more expansive MMOs out there, seeing as World of Warcraft's fiction soon crumbles in the face of the need to keep looking for better loot or to hunt down that one item that's been reccomended to you by a guildmate or a pubber. Who actually takes time to read quest briefings in WoW? Almost nobody.

On the other hand, most of those who enjoy playing Skyrim will take the time to let NPCs speak their lines or to otherwise respond to them in a believable manner. Skyrim's not about racking up stats (although it certainly can be played this way), so playing it as such can potentially rob you of some of the game's fun.

The funny thing is, most of the complaints I've seen in this thread can be fixed with mods. You've got an issue with the way character creation and progression is handled in the game? Well, certain mods allow you to replicate Oblivion's class and levelling system to the letter. The wild outdoors feel empty? Try the War Zones mod or one of the several monster mods. If enemy behaviour bothers you, there's means to overhaul everything from Dwemer Centurions to your humblest skeever.

If you sit there and complain, you obviously won't get your money's worth. If you take matters into your own hands and apply a few mods, you're likely to find what you're looking for. If you're playing on a console, well, I hate to say this, but Skyrim is predominantly built for PCs. Yes, the interface is consolized, but the modular aspect of the game is a rather clear indication that the player is more or less meant to try and complement the core experience with user-made plugins of his or her choice. You can't do that on consoles, ergo, your enjoyment of Skyrim is impaired.

As to Dawnguard and Hearthfire ruining the game entirely, I really can't back that up in any significant fashion. I'm playing on PC, and my Vampire Lord hasn't run into a single hitch.

 

[Sight Unseen]

If you're on PC- download the Deadly Dragons mod and the More Monsters Mod and you'll be set.

 

[SajuukKhar]

You can't play an Elder Scrolls game for its mechanics. You have to play it for its lore, for the way the world is fleshed out around you. The irony is that it succeeds more at this than some of the more expansive MMOs out there, seeing as World of Warcraft's fiction soon crumbles in the face of the need to keep looking for better loot or to hunt down that one item that's been reccomended to you by a guildmate or a pubber. Who actually takes time to read quest briefings in WoW? Almost nobody.

I love the way Bethesda makes the world.
-Goes into some ruin
-Find a dead body smashed by some rocks with its hand out
-Finds another dead body next to it, with its hand out also, holding onto the other persons hand.

And when I see these things, I immediately create some story in my head about what must have happened, best friends? lovers?

I can imagine when whatever attack that caused the rock to crush the first person happened, their best friend decided to stay with them in their final hours comforting them, then not being able to bear leaving their friend/lover there, they decided to die there with them, not being able to live without them.

Or there was one in a Bandit cave where some dead body was trapped in a bale of hay, his arm reaching out trying to grab a bottle of ale. I can imagine it was some guy who betrayed the bandit gang, and they threw him in there for it, and he spent his last days just out of reach of something to drink, slowly starving to death.

Bethesda tells so many things without ever needing a quest, or a note, or someone mentioning it.

I missed that a lot in Fallout New vegas, it was one of several things that contributed to the overall dullness of New Vegas's world, everything was just another radscorpion den, or coyote den. sure there were dead people in them, but nothing in any meaningful way that told a story, they just looked like randomly placed dead bodies.

Tim Cain of Fallout fame even commented on it.
http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/09/05/fallout-1-and-2-dev-on-storytelling-and-fallout-3-vs-new-vegas/

 

[IamLEAM1983]

Stuff!

I love the way Bethesda makes the world.

-Goes into some ruin
-Find a dead body smashed by some rocks with its hand out
-Finds another dead body next to it, with its hand out also, holding onto the other persons hand.

And when I see these things, I immediately create some story in my head about what must have happened. best friends? lovers?

I can imagine when whatever attack that caused the rock to crush the first person happened, their best friend decided to stay with them in their final hours comforting them, then not being able to bear leaving their friend/lover there, they decided to die there with them,.


Tim Cain of Fallout fame even commented on it.
http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/09/05/fallout-1-and-2-dev-on-storytelling-and-fallout-3-vs-new-vegas/

Pretty much this. The fun part of Skyrim is just wandering around and then finding something that makes you go "Oooo! I wonder how this got there?"

Or, while we're at it, "Hey, a Three Billy Goats Gruff reference!"

My personal crowning achievement wasn't killing Alduin or completing any of the faction quests - it was finding the Notched Pickaxe.

Captcha: zombie prom
I like the way you think, Captcha.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Pretty much this. The fun part of Skyrim is just wandering around and then finding something that makes you go "Oooo! I wonder how this got there?"

Or, while we're at it, "Hey, a Three Billy Goats Gruff reference!"

My personal crowning achievement wasn't killing Alduin or completing any of the faction quests - it was finding the Notched Pickaxe.

Captcha: zombie prom
I like the way you think, Captcha.

Most of the Elder Scrolls story telling is told through things like that, and through symbolism, and allegory.

Most people will never understand how the statue of Talos in Whiterun, and how the shrine of Akatosh of connected, because they never take the time to look at them, to see how similar they are, to see the symbolism they provide.

Most people are use to Bioware's story telling in Dragon Age, or Mass Effect, where they had you everything on a silver platter in dialog, cutscenes, and the codex, most people never take the time to stop and actually look at the world, which is why Skyrim feels empty to them.

 

[AgentLampshade]

...To be like Dragon's Dogma. Seriously, am I the only one who thought it did everything Skyrim done but better? (with the exception of the lore. I love me some TES lore.)