American Socialism, What's It All About?: A Fireside forum with i_am_undead and VikingRhetoric!

[LordOmnit]

These proposed laws

...Would...

...would...

if they were in fact laws as opposed to proposed.
As for you nit-picking about my (sorta), you seem to have mistaken that sentence for something it wasn't; the sentence was about how the rating system IS NOT the laws and as such cannot truly punish.

 

[Gisgo Elim]

Silly Larenxis. Everyone knows that socialism = evil. It has nothing to do with helping those who are unable to help themselves, nothing to do with civil society, nothing to do with mutual sympathy and support. It's just plain evil. End of story. This is why there are no living socialists anywhere in elected office.

The only reason anyone would think socialism is inherently evil is the fact that American's where and are feed Americanized propaganda against communism since the Cold War. The misconception that socialism, being the build block philosophy of communism should also be considered "evil" is misinformed and completely bias. The truth to me is that all the communist governments I've ever heard of weren't fundamentally socialist and actually were more based on fascism because unless a communist government has some sort of republic representation of the people then no real equality can be made just a mandated order that all people, under law, must follow. Yeah thats not socialism in practice. Vote yes for socialized health care!

 

[VikingRhetoric]

Fascism = Control by authority
Liberalism = Personal freedom
Socialism = Equality

*sigh* I got my "isms" mixed up again...

What's this about the dregs of society?? I hope that's not some class elitism happening.

Far from it, I'm not talking about the people who actually need help, I'm talking about the ones who ride the coattails of the system,making it hard for anyone to get any assistance.

 

[LordOmnit]

That's my point--I don't see why you're talking to me about the ESRB ratings system when I was never talking about the ESRB ratings system.

Like I said before, where would new laws come from other than percieved failings in the previous system? That's what overturning/revising any kind of regulation (from lack thereof to entire governments) is about.

 

[Manta173]

So Mr. Cheese... you don't see forcing everyone to pay for the "floor" plan through taxes as socialism or fascism... I personally prefer to spend my own money... being a grad student that means I have relatively little (actually on the poverty line in my area) but I am more than able to afford great health insurance on my own as well as a nice car payment and good insurance on said car... should the government pay for those for me too? cause I'm too stupid to manage my finances and my neighbor drives a BMW while I drive a FORD... thats not equal at all... I say take away his BMW and give it to me... I'm sure he can afford a new one.

 

[VikingRhetoric]

Bmws are overpriced, unreliable turds.

Fords are cheap, unreliable turds.


I say keep the ford, at least then you can afford to fix it when it breaks.

 

[Raan_Amano]

Alright. I take exception to that. You're a "grad student" with "relatively little" on "the poverty line"? Where? In the Hamptons? The truth is there's worse poverty than that here in the States, and just because someone's poor doesn't mean their too stupid to manage their finances. Minimum wage doesn't allow for purchasing health insurance and car insurance at the same time, usually. People have to choose between gas for their vehicle, insurance for their car, insurance for themselves and thier families, food, or prescriptions. They say that you can't put a price on a human life, when in fact, you can, as America does it regularly with the current health care system. What's wrong with some of everyone's tax dollars going to help everyone have at least a minimum health care plan? And don't comeback with that "get a job" crap that some morons come off with. With minimum wage, working two jobs (even with the new increase), it still isn't enough to pay for everything required for people. And then you proceed to talk about being a "grad student". Well, good for you. Now, go get a job that you're qualified for, and maybe you won't be "on the poverty line in your area". Shut up and count yourself lucky that you don't have to work two jobs, and go to college at the same time, and it's all still not enough.

 

[Raan_Amano]

I totally second that.

 

[Raan_Amano]

LOL!!! Yeah. Good point. Of course, there is the other thing....

...That he's actually from a rich corporate family and had everything paid for by them, so now he's "on the poverty line" for the first time in his life and he's pretending that he had to fight to get to where he is.

That may not be the case, but the thought had occurred to me. That type of thinking tends to occur to me every time someone makes the "I don't believe in forcing everyone to pay for the "floor" healthcare system. I believe in paying for my own healthcare." argument. That's like saying "I'm rich and I don't want to have to pay for YOUR healthcare."

 

[Talisker]

Socialisim is great in theory. However, in practice it simply dosen't work because human beings by nature always want a little bit more than the guy next door, this is particularly true of America, and if we all have the same that's not a possibility. This is where Democracy steps in. Democracy gives people an oppertunity to have their say by voting but it also allows people to have more that the guy next door if they want it enough to earn it. Thus giving everyone something to aspire to.

Democracy and Socialism aren't mutually exclusive, e.g.: Sanders is a self-described democratic socialist [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders][/quote]

My bad, I wasn't very clear. What I meant was that Democracy was a more practical approach to Socialisim in that it lets the people have thier say but dosen't impose absolute equality on people. Humans aren't all equal. No, thats not a hint of racisim. Nobody can honestly say they want the exact same as the next person you just need to look at the amount of different opinions on here to know thats true. Democracy works as a compromise it cant please everyone but it pleases enough to keep society in order(mostly). It can, however, go the other way and end up with Facisim. Whereby the minority tells the majority what they are getting and won't take any argument ie. a Dictatorship.

 

[Talisker]

Socialisim is great in theory. However, in practice it simply dosen't work because human beings by nature always want a little bit more than the guy next door, this is particularly true of America, and if we all have the same that's not a possibility. This is where Democracy steps in. Democracy gives people an oppertunity to have their say by voting but it also allows people to have more that the guy next door if they want it enough to earn it. Thus giving everyone something to aspire to.

Democracy and Socialism aren't mutually exclusive, e.g.: Sanders is a self-described democratic socialist [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders][/quote]

My bad, I wasn't very clear. What I meant was that Democracy was a more practical approach to Socialisim in that it lets the people have thier say but dosen't impose absolute equality on people. Humans aren't all equal. No, thats not a hint of racisim. Nobody can honestly say they want the exact same as the next person you just need to look at the amount of different opinions on here to know thats true. Democracy works as a compromise it cant please everyone but it pleases enough to keep society in order(mostly). It can, however, go the other way and end up with Facisim. Whereby the minority tells the majority what they are getting and won't take any argument ie. a Dictatorship.

My apologies, I hit post twice. Sorry folks.

 

[Razzle Bathbone]

I'm assuming you're being sarcastic, but just in case I'm wrong Razzle, are you serious?

About as serious as Stephen Colbert, though nowhere near as funny or clever. We live in a strange time when people can (and do) actually believe someone could possibly say such things seriously. It's a difficult time for satirists.

 

[LordOmnit]

Okay. So these laws are 'imposing morality' because the ESRB was 'perceived' to have 'failed' to do so.
I still don't see why you responded to me to talk about the ESRB, other than the fact that you misunderstood what I was saying.

Okay, I still think that your idea of 'imposing morality' is a load of bull shit.
More heavily 'imposing' it is all that attaching a penalty is going to do if it were 'imposing morality' anyways (it is only in the sense that it is taking the country's general moral set and applying them where the same types of people did before to get the rating system and make it more strict did in the first place).

I say take away his BMW and give it to me... I'm sure he can afford a new one.

Stop whining about what you don't have because you weren't as lucky as him (or possibly he got it for working hard, there's always that chance). Since we aren't *communist* (and by that I mean actual communism, not Stalinist communism which is totalitarian socialist) we can't force everyone to have equal or shared property. Even if we were *socialist* and forced to be economically equal-ish then he still might have a better car than you because you said that you were not good at managing money.

 

[monodiabloloco]

A social healthcare system with a base level of care to help those who need it most may not be a terrible idea. It would be but a patch on a rotten and leaking boat however. Although I am all for people making money for their services, the health care system is broken at the source; the providers of the care themselves. For example, I went to a med check with a sinus infection. I paid $30 for the visit as determined by my insurance. My insurance paid for about $150, and there was about $50 more that wasn't covered by my insurance. So, $230 was the charge for: 5 min for a nurse to get my hight and weight, 5 min for my Dr to look at eyes, ears, and throat also for me to list my symptoms. He used 1 little plasticy thing on a funny flashlight/magnifier to look into my ears, and 1 wooden stick to look at my throat. Then, another 5 min to tell me my issue and to write me a script for an antibiotic. So.. Where the F! did $230 happen? say even $10 for the stick, $20 for the plasticy thing, that leaves an average charge of $800 an hour. Why? Because they can. Why not? The insurance company pays for it right?... Wrong. The truth is I STILL pay for it. Each paycheck. YOU pay for it. WE ALL pay for it ALREADY. I see complaints that no one wants to pay taxes to pay for someone else to get health care... What do you think you do now? Medicare/Medicaid is paid by both you and your employer. There is already a metric ass-load of $ being taken to pay for those less fortunate, unemployed, or just plain lazy. Now we see talk of MANDITORY health care? WTF? Seriously? How about mandatory JOBS. How about mandatory LOW COST MEDICAL CARE. Make the medical costs we have reasonable, and make it harder to get state/federal assistance UNLESS YOU HAVE A FUCKING JOB. At least an *attempt* to work.. Instead of state funded food and free money to pay for kids (have more, get more!), how about this: State funded child care so the kids get fed, and watched while the parents go to WORK. Then, if it's proven that this STILL isn't enough, government funded assistance that doesn't involve giving cash or the equivalent to a person.

While I am very against being told what I can and cannot do as a citizen in my own domicile, and protect what little freedoms we have left, including businesses (usually), some regulation coming into play to keep the medical world from the violent raping that takes place would be a great 1st step in truly reforming our health care system into something acceptable. THEN we could look into the rest.
Damned soap box keeps slipping under my feet!
</soapbox..again>