An ethical question involving adoption

[LostTimeLady]

As many people have already said I think the child should have a say in things. At 13/14 a person is legally responsible for their own actions and so they should have a say as to what happens to them regardless of what the law says. The kidnapper acted wrongly but brought the child up perfectly fine where as unfortunately although the biological parents legally have rights they actually don't know the child at all.

I'd definately say that fobidding contact is the wrong way about things. The child might resent both the kiddnapper and the real parents if things aren't handled well.

I'd hate to have to be the judge on this situation... Either way someone loses...

 

[Gralian]

So you would've been fine if this happened to you? Somehow I doubt that.

I didn't say the child in question would be "fine", nor did i say that i would be if i were in his or her shoes. I said that the child would adjust, and so would i. Yes, it's going to be an uncomfortable adjustment, but it's not going to traumatise someone. Being sexually assaulted as a child by your parents is trauma inducing. Not going to live with your biological parents. Going to an extreme of "you're either perfectly one hundred per cent happy and fine with it" or "you're going to struggle to come to terms with it forever" seems outright ridiculous to me. Why can't people just say that while it will be hard, yes, it will also be overcome? The "deal with it" image comes to mind. Because ultimately, people will "deal with it" in the end. It just won't come easy. I know at least that by age 13 to 14 i didn't depend on my parents' love and adoration anywhere near to the degree i would have done as a pre-teen or very young child. It's nice to have, but really, by that age you should be starting to develop a sense of agency and independence about your life. The fact you are legally responsible for your own actions by that age demonstrates that maturity is already onset.

...regardless of what the law says...

This right here is where the idealists lose all credibility. Now i'm not picking on you specifically, i certainly appreciate the sentiment of "whatever is morally right", but the law always has the final say and the second you try to disregard that your argument is invalid. The law is the law, end of story. It might not be great for all involved, but that's the way it is and that's the way society works. If you have a problem with it, take it up with the court of appeal.

 

[Merkavar]

personally i think at 13-14 the kid should get to choose. assess both families too make such both are suitable for a child and then give the child all the facts and let them decide on where to live. maybe let them go into foster care or something.

cause the kidnapper is a kidnapper and the biologicals are strangers.

 

[Altaria87]

I actually remember watching that miniseries. And, if I remember correctly, the child wasn't really kidnapped. Rather, the familty lost her on the beach one day through negligence, and the one who found her couldn't find the parents, so took care of the child.

 

[Tehlanna TPX]

I'm rather boggled that most people find it horrible to take a child away from its kidnapper. That it's 'collateral' when the law punishes said kidnapper. Uh.... I would say its acceptable collateral in this situation. That is not their parent. They were STOLEN. And once their child-mind has realized the reality of the situation, they will come to accept their true parents. This is also why all children in this situation receive counseling.

And since people are pulling the snarky, "if it happened to you" card: I think I would be fine, eventually, after receiving counseling for my situation, and glad that it hadn't turned out worse.

 

[Vault101]

I actually remember watching that miniseries. And, if I remember correctly, the child wasn't really kidnapped. Rather, the familty lost her on the beach one day through negligence, and the one who found her couldn't find the parents, so took care of the child.

yeah, I think thats the one

anyway the right thing to do would have been to go to the police (wich Im not sure she did)

 

[Sikratua]

What you guys are seeming to forget is that, in kidnapping cases, the person being kidnapped is not the only victim. Not only did this person take an infant from her biological parents, and craft this child into something entirely different than the birth parents would have done, she did something far worse. She took, from the birth parents, evey milestone that could possibly have been had with their child. The actual parents were robbed of hearing that child's first words, seeing the child's first steps, etc...

"But, the kidnapper was a good mother." Bullshit, and completely irrelevant. The kidnapper based this child's entire lifeupon a singular lie, that was repeated to the point that the child was mind raped into believing it, even when the light of truth was shone in her face.

What do I think should be done? Frankly, I believe that cases like this are why Capital Punishment should never be taken off of the books. What that kidnapper did, in my opinion, was worse than rape.

 

[oooooooooooooooooooooooooo]

What more is there to say? We are done as far as I can see. You find the truth inconvenient and wish to ignore it. I want the truth to be known and the law to do its job. We will both obviously gain nothing by going back and forth.

Firstly, stop with the 'inconvenient truth' rhetoric, it really isn't acceptable in this sort of discussion. I made it clear that I feel that the child's mental health takes priority over anything else in this situation. I never once said that anyone should ignore the truth.

Secondly, people have debates to try reach some sort of mutual conclusion about what is the correct/acceptable answer/outcome/solution/e.t.c. for situations that actually matter. Situations like this do happen, and people will have to make these sorts of decisions. No, not all debates end with any sort of conclusion, but more than enough do for it be worth it. There is almost no point in broadcasting your opinion on anything if you're just going to retreat behind 'we have different views' defence every time your opinion is challenged.

 

[Risingblade]

Well the kidnapper is obviously going to prison, who else will the kid stay with?

 

[Ninez]

Child should be given to the real parents and kidnapper send to mental prison. If we wouldn't punish this sort of behavior it would become normal. If you cant have kids, there are legal ways of getting them...

What comes to the capital punishment; fuck that. She isn't clearly a bad person perse. Just desperate/stupid. Doubtful that she would do try to do it again.

If she would have carved the baby from the mothers womb or something like that, maby then.

 

[Brandon237]

This should be the child's choice, and if the child chooses to stay with their kidnapper, then AFTER the child has moved out of the kidnapper's house, the kidnapper gets their legal punishment.

If the foster parent/ kidnapper treated the child well, then they would probably not be too willing to just leave them after spending 14 years of their lives with them.

 

[Biodeamon]

Thank god most people arent wacky enough to do something like this.

Awful question, I honestly dont know. The best interest of the child should be at heart...and I guess that should include involvement from both "families".

actually some crazy womans who want to have kids will go to extreme measures to get kids and raise them...

 

[Biodeamon]

i think the mom should give the kid back. she`s had her fun time to give the kid back to real parents. And now that's she's a teenager she might be more unpleasant than that adorable thing she kidnapped earlier.

 

[4li3n]

I'm rather boggled that most people find it horrible to take a child away from its kidnapper. That it's 'collateral' when the law punishes said kidnapper. Uh.... I would say its acceptable collateral in this situation. That is not their parent. They were STOLEN. And once their child-mind has realized the reality of the situation, they will come to accept their true parents. This is also why all children in this situation receive counseling.

Well we are talking a hypothetical situation where the kidnapper was actually a good parent, which is unlikely in real life as kidnapping a kid isn't a sign of parent material and the kid would probably be grateful to be rid of them.

And since people are pulling the snarky, "if it happened to you" card: I think I would be fine, eventually, after receiving counselling for my situation, and glad that it hadn't turned out worse.

I wonder, how's your relationship with your parents? Would you trade them for a bunch of strangers right now?

And a kid should not need counselling... anything you do to a kid that would require him to get counselling doesn't count as "the right thing for him" to me.


See, it's not that simple as "put X in jail and everything will be fine".

 

[4li3n]

actually some crazy womans who want to have kids will go to extreme measures to get kids and raise them...

But surprisingly they tend not to make very good parents... sometimes the kid even ends up having suspicions about being kidnapped: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-12620384

Note that some of the kids didn't want to know, and they're in their 30's...

 

[4li3n]

What that kidnapper did, in my opinion, was worse than rape.

I take it you've been raped, and that qualifies you to make that assertion.

Child should be given to the real parents and kidnapper send to mental prison. If we wouldn't punish this sort of behavior it would become normal. If you cant have kids, there are legal ways of getting them...

What comes to the capital punishment; fuck that. She isn't clearly a bad person perse. Just desperate/stupid. Doubtful that she would do try to do it again.

If she would have carved the baby from the mothers womb or something like that, maby then.

You do know that there's such a thing as punishing someone without sending them to jail, right? Kinda like you can punish theft without cutting of a hand.

 

[SinisterGehe]

Well according to the law the child is old enough to decide for himself. But why should he be returned to biological parents after 14 years? He doesn't know them, they don't know him, there is no "parental love" between them, they are strangers to each other, and it might give the kid really hard time mentally to settel in specially if he has grown up recognizing the kidnapper as hes parent.

Returning a lost child to parents after 14 years would be objectifying the child. Hes not a properity of the biological parent.

Think what is best for the child, not what is right according to the law. In Finnish law the kidnapper would be the childs guardian, since he has taken care of the child for so long and the child recognizes the kidnapper as parent.

 

[electric_warrior]

How anyone is having trouble answering this is beyond me.

So, because someone's crime lasts a long time, they get away with it? That means every kidnapper just has to run far enough and wait it out.

Nonsense.

You stole a child that isn't yours, a child that has parents. I mean, christ. These people gave birth to their child and they have every right in the world to get them back.

You have to consider what's best for the kid too. I don't think anyone's saying that the criminal should get off scot free because of any sympathy for them, but is it right to tear a kid away from the only parent they've ever known and give them to what are, essentially, total strangers? Its a more complex problem than your making out, and is not even slightly similar to evading capture for a long time. This isn't Stockholm syndrome we're talking about here, its a child's love for what it thinks is its parent.

If the kid doesn't want to see them and wants to live with its biological parents, then its pretty cut and dried, but if not its a real moral conundrum.

 

[ScoopMeister]

1.ok kid automatically goes and lives with biological parents...who are upper class, she came from a lower class background, doesnt fit in so much (and from what Ive seen on TV britan has some serious social issues, like its youth are friggin scary) anyway in regards to that I honestly dont know

Methinks you over-exaggerate British society's ills. Sure, we've got problems here, but no worse than anywhere else.
Anyway, the kidnapper should obviously go to prison, but I think it's wrong to forbid communication. The child has obviously being raised with love, and it must help for her to adjust if she still has her surrogate mother there to support her.

 

[SinisterGehe]

How anyone is having trouble answering this is beyond me.

So, because someone's crime lasts a long time, they get away with it? That means every kidnapper just has to run far enough and wait it out.

Nonsense.

You stole a child that isn't yours, a child that has parents. I mean, christ. These people gave birth to their child and they have every right in the world to get them back.

You have to consider what's best for the kid too. I don't think anyone's saying that the criminal should get off scot free because of any sympathy for them, but is it right to tear a kid away from the only parent they've ever known and give them to what are, essentially, total strangers? Its a more complex problem than your making out, and is not even slightly similar to evading capture for a long time. This isn't Stockholm syndrome we're talking about here, its a child's love for what it thinks is its parent.

If the kid doesn't want to see the and wants to live with its biological parents, then its pretty cut and dried, but if not its a real moral conundrum.

Considering the parents of the child, the people who gave birth to them, love them more than life itself and miss them, miss giving them birthday parties, buying them clothes, playing in the backyard, taking them to school - all the things that parents deserve to share with their child - will want them back, it is cut and dry.

Also, the kidnapper will be in prison and can't look after the child they stole. /thread

According to what country's law?
In Finnish law the kidnapper would be the kid's parent since he has taken care of the child (specially if the child recognizes the kidnapper as hes parent)

Also, we should be thinking what is best for the child, not for the parents, you saying the child is like an item that can be just tossed around.

I am assuming the child was kidnapped at baby age. He wouldn't know the biological parents, they wouldn't know the kid - they would be strangers. How would you feel id youd be 14 years old boy who all the sudden gets carried to a home of a couple you do not know and you get said "these are your parents, enjoy" and just left there. It would be better for the child to be taken in to a children's home, then the biological parents can apply for custody. Child is not a item, hes a human being - with all the emotions and such.