An Idea for a Perpetual motion machine that obeys physics

omega 616

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May 1, 2009
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x EvilErmine x said:
Vicarious Reality said:
A wheel powered by angled magnets?
Nope, good try though.

A wheel requires a baring or axle to rotate around. This would create friction and bleed energy from the system. Magnetic baring would minimize this but will still be an energy sink because of the interaction between the fields.

Now it's not perpetual motion but if we could somehow figure out how to extract zero-point energy from the universe then we are onto a limitless source of power.
And?

Forgive me but isn't perpetual motion about no energy in but energy out? (since, this isn't a live conversation, I will assume you just said "yup") So the fact energy is lost, is irrelevant.

EDIT: To be honest, I regret commenting on this 'cos I know what is coming ... a bunch of pedantic posts about long dead smarty pants's laws of physics.

I figure you could get a windmill thing going with magnets. The magnet doesn't effect the windmill, till one of the spokes of the windmill goes past parallel with the magnet and then the magnet repels the windmill ... wont go forever 'cos magnetic charges dissipate but it would do for me.

That's as far as I want to go with this, it's a temporary perpetual motion machine at the very least (and I don't care if science doesn't support it, it makes me happy)
 

Vicarious Reality

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x EvilErmine x said:
Vicarious Reality said:
A wheel powered by angled magnets?
Nope, good try though.

A wheel requires a baring or axle to rotate around. This would create friction and bleed energy from the system. Magnetic baring would minimize this but will still be an energy sink because of the interaction between the fields.

Now it's not perpetual motion but if we could somehow figure out how to extract zero-point energy from the universe then we are onto a limitless source of power.
But surely one could get a wheel suspension with less friction than it would take to overpower strong neodym magnets
Small ball layers, hard carbide tips holding it up on the side?
 

x EvilErmine x

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omega 616 said:
x EvilErmine x said:
Vicarious Reality said:
A wheel powered by angled
magnets?
snipity...
..temporary perpetual motion machine ...
Ok I'm not going to go into it but, temporary perpetual motion? Really? Or am I missing the joke.

Vicarious Reality said:
x EvilErmine x said:
Vicarious Reality said:
A wheel powered by angled magnets?
Nope, good try though.

A wheel requires a baring or axle to rotate around. This would create friction and bleed energy from the system. Magnetic baring would minimize this but will still be an energy sink because of the interaction between the fields.

Now it's not perpetual motion but if we could somehow figure out how to extract zero-point energy from the universe then we are onto a limitless source of power.
But surely one could get a wheel suspension with less friction than it would take to overpower strong neodym magnets
Small ball layers, hard carbide tips holding it up on the side?
I didn't really explain my reasoning too well there so apologies for that.

Ok so even if we could use the lowest friction method possible to suspend the wheel we would still need to give it a push to get it started, putting the wheel in a static magnetic field would not cause it to start spinning on it's own (and if we oscillate the fields then this requires an input of energy, defeating the point) So we have to input energy into the system to get the wheel spinning, now the system will continue to run for a while but even with our super low friction bearings the energy transfer can never be 100% because of the way the universe works (coz of entropy) this would bleed energy from the system until we get to the point where all the energy we initially put into the system is dissipated. At which point the laws of motion (every action has an equal and opposite reaction) would slow the wheel further until it stopped.

At least that's how I understand it anyway. I'm no physics major. If any real physicists out there wanna correct me then please feel free.

*Edit*

Eeks, typos...typos everywhere!
 

Vicarious Reality

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x EvilErmine x said:
omega 616 said:
x EvilErmine x said:
Vicarious Reality said:
A wheel powered by angled
magnets?
Ok so even if we could use the lowest friction method possible to suspend the wheel we would still need to give it a push to get it started, putting the wheel in a static magnetic field would not cause it to start spinning on it's own (and if we oscillate the fields then this requires an input of energy, defeating the point) !
I think no one quite understands my idea, i have searched for it many times, you angle the magnets to make them push the wheel like a river pushes a water wheel generator, no need to oscillate anything, the initial push is enough to get it past the first magnet interaction and whooo
lol
 

McMullen

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Exterminas said:
Oh, this thread will be going well.

There will be the usual pseudo-science-crowd, most of which don't have any scientific qualification beyond a freshman and they'll immediately shout down this idea. They will repeat the phrase "second law of thermodynamics" over and over, without actually being able to name the other laws of thermodynamics.

Aaand there will be the other pseudo-science-crowd who'll tell a bunch of things about sub atomic particles and magnets and thermodynamics who are convinced that this sort of thing can actually be humanity's hope for energy!

I honestly can't tell which side of this argument I want to be on.
You say that like there haven't already been several posts not doing either of those things. Why?

OT: Molecules and atoms do move, but that is due to their thermal energy, not any innate properties. Thermal energy is a) not that easy to harness, especially in small amounts, and b) can still be depleted.

Of course, it is true that you can't completely make an atom or molecule stop (this would be reaching absolute zero), but since everything in the universe is warmer than something near absolute zero, they'd be absorbing energy, not producing or maintaining it, if you slowed them down that much. They reason they can't reach absolute zero is because there is always some slight motion from quantum mechanical effects. These motions are in random directions though, so it's not possible to use them for a task. They are also so small as to almost be nonexistent.

Subatomic particles might also be what you're thinking of when you say that some things must move, but this is entirely due to quantum mechanics, and it's not so much that they move, but that their location can't be constrained when their velocity is constrained, and vice-versa. At this scale it's not accurate to think of these particles as billiard balls. It's better to think of them as a probability cloud, where the density of that cloud at a given location represents the chances of finding that particle at a given instant. The particles don't necessarily move from one place in that cloud to another; if their velocity is constrained (say, to zero, or any other exact velocity) they actually exist in several places in the cloud at once, and the degree to which they exist is governed by the cloud density at each point. At least, that's my understanding. QM is a difficult thing to conceptualize.

Long story short, the innate motion that you mentioned does not exist, except for vanishingly small movements generated by quantum effects that, because of their inherently random nature, cannot be made to act in a particular direction. Other people have already explained how gravity is not energy and wouldn't work out the way you suggest.

The biggest problem with perpetual motion, however, is that the absolute BEST you could do if you could create one would be to make it just idle in a running state forever. If it were a vehicle, or some sort of machine, it would lose energy to you once you got in, or to whatever you gave the machine to process. So even if you could make one, the act of doing anything with it would make it stop eventually. A useful PMM would not only have to not lose energy, which breaks the second law of thermodynamics, but create it, which would also break the first law. The third law doesn't really apply in this case; all it really says is that having a vanishingly small amount of energy doesn't mean you can't keep losing it.
 

Hero in a half shell

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2 drums of water, one set above the other, with a pipe between the two, so the water flows from the higher drum into the lower drum.

In the pipe there is a turbine (like a hydroelectric generator) except the turbine is connected solely to an archimedes screw.

Water flows down the pipe because of gravity, turns the turbine, which turns the screw, which transports the water back up into the top drum.

Extra points for having an extended first pipe that gets narrower and narrower as it descends, pressurizing the water so it has more energy for turning the screw.

The laws of physics say it won't work, but I came up with this about 12 years ago and I've always liked it.
 

Hagi

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You know,

unless we manage to find a way to completely halt all motion of the earth, which would be incredibly awkward as I'm not even sure there's a universal frame of reference by which to measure a thing's motion, all machines that exist would technically be perpetually in motion.

So at least by some definitions all machines that exist on this planet are perpetual motion machines....

Maybe?
 

Loonyyy

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Violates conservation of energy.
Violates Law of Entropy. (I guess that makes me pseudoscientific for citing the Second Law of Thermodynamics for what it actually means?)

Perpetual motion machines are antithetical to physics. The best you can do is make something like a pendulum which has a very low loss of energy. But you don't get any energy back from any of these, and eventually, you'll lose the energy you started with. It's not a problem you can just think through or imagine a solution to. It requires completely ignoring basic mechanics and kinetics.
 

shootthebandit

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Loads of people around the world want to lose weight and we have an energy shortage. Giant hamster wheels for people that generate electricity.

Or take those torch batteries that you need to shake to recharge. Make them into a wrist watch plug wrist watch into a computer that only accesses pron websites. That thing will power itself for years
 

Brennan

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Vicarious Reality said:
I think no one quite understands my idea, i have searched for it many times, you angle the magnets to make them push the wheel like a river pushes a water wheel generator, no need to oscillate anything, the initial push is enough to get it past the first magnet interaction and whooo
lol
I get what you're describing. It wouldn't work because the fields emitted by the magnets' poles are roughly radial in shape, not linear. No matter how you angle your magnets, a magnet on the outer wheel that's intended to repel a magnet on the inner wheel will repel as it's approaching just as much or almost as much as when it's receding. The result would be either a wheel which actually resists turning by itself, as the inner wheel would "bottom out" between magnets, or a kind of magnetic bearing in which the forces were in perfect equilibrium, allowing the wheel to be spun freely by outside torque, but providing no torque of their own (though if used as a bearing it would need to be spun constantly to dynamically stabilize it).

This is why electric motors use electromagnets instead of permanent magnets. The electromagnets are designed to either switch on/off or swap polarities in synch with the motor's rotation, so that the magnets on one wheel pull as they approach those on the other wheel, then push as they recede. What you're imagining is pretty much literally just an unplugged electric motor, which is why you've never heard of/seen it before as a "perpetual motion" concept.

Hero in a half shell said:
2 drums of water, one set above the other, with a pipe between the two, so the water flows from the higher drum into the lower drum.

In the pipe there is a turbine (like a hydroelectric generator) except the turbine is connected solely to an archimedes screw.

Water flows down the pipe because of gravity, turns the turbine, which turns the screw, which transports the water back up into the top drum.

Extra points for having an extended first pipe that gets narrower and narrower as it descends, pressurizing the water so it has more energy for turning the screw.

The laws of physics say it won't work, but I came up with this about 12 years ago and I've always liked it.
It wouldn't work because the energy required by the screw to move the water against gravity would be at least equal to the energy in the same amount of water falling the same distance (in practice it would need more energy to the imperfect inefficiency of the mechanisms). The same gravity is the operative force in both motions, so it's basically just a more Rube Goldburg form of bouncing ball.

shootthebandit said:
Loads of people around the world want to lose weight and we have an energy shortage. Giant hamster wheels for people that generate electricity.

Or take those torch batteries that you need to shake to recharge. Make them into a wrist watch plug wrist watch into a computer that only accesses pron websites. That thing will power itself for years
There might actually be a real marketable idea in that. Imagine a gym in which all the treadmills, exercycles, and even the weight machines derive their resistance from adjustable gearings attached to car alternator-like generators. Such a gym might at least be electrically self sufficient. Would be great "green" marketing copy, at the very least. I guess the question then might be would that savings get passed on to the customer, or into the upper management/shareholders' pockets?