An interesting nuclear strategy thought experiment thread

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Good morning blues

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Sep 24, 2008
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I attended a really interesting lecture on nuclear deterrence and proliferation recently, and I think some people might want to discuss it.

Nuclear strategy is based on the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD). MAD assumes that two nuclear powers attacking each other each have a first strike opportunity and a second strike opportunity (and in some theories, a third strike opportunity); essentially, the first strike is the original launch of a declaration of war. For a variety of reasons, it is assumed that while a first strike will cause major damage and prompt retaliation, the first strike will not completely eliminate the target's nuclear capability, and that as a result the target will have a second strike opportunity to attack the aggressor, causing similar destruction. (The most important factor for allowing a second strike is submarines capable of launching nuclear weapons - it's essentially impossible to know where they are unless you also happen to have a submarine in its vicinity. It is pretty much impossible to know where all of your opponent's nuclear submarines are at a specific time.)

Now, the most interesting theory presented in this lecture is that nuclear proliferation is a good thing. According to this theory, if everybody has nuclear weapons, nobody will use them because of the looming spectre of MAD. Even conventional warfare will decrease, as two nuclear powers won't want to risk escalating a conventional conflict into a nuclear conflict.

Obviously, this theory has a lot of people railing against it. Some point out that there is a massive first strike incentive for nuclear powers whose rivals do not yet have nuclear weapons. Others observe that some world leaders do not act rationally, and would be likely to use nuclear weapons if they got hold of them. More worry about the capability for certain states to keep their weapons secure, fearing that they could be captured by or sold to non-state actors such as terrorist groups, against whom there is no second strike opportunity. There's also the problem of nuclear powers with different capabilities; not everybody has ICBMs or nuclear submarines, so their rivals who are outside their range have an increased first strike incentive. There are plenty of other situations that could undermine the first argument.

The really interesting thing: the empirical evidence supports the original hypothesis (the idea that nuclear proliferation is good). Every one of the situations that its critics have suggested has occurred in the real world, and none of them have led to nuclear war. If two rivals have regular conflicts, the incidences of conventional conflicts decrease once they have nuclear weapons. So yes, the evidence does support this hypothesis.

That said, are you willing to bet the world on it? All it takes is one incident.

So, lend your views. Is nuclear proliferation a good thing? Should certain states be denied nuclear weapons? Should nuclear powers disarm? Let's discuss this, it's interesting.
 

DoW Lowen

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Jan 11, 2009
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Honestly I'm very well divided. I learnt all of this as well, and both make very valid arguments. I can't think of any current situation where the use of Nuclear weapons will be an issue. But then I'm reminded of North Korea and other groups who will willingly destroy civilization for the sake of turning it into rubble and will have no second thoughts of there own destruction. But I do believe that Nuclear deterrence will lead to an increase and escalation in conventional war fare technology, which is another scary thought.
 

RetiarySword

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Apr 27, 2008
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Well nuclear weapons don't mean shit to the EU and US now as they have missile shields. they are counter missiles what launch and blow up the missile without detonating its payload. Russia has them around Moscow as well. Also the US have a plane with a massive laser attached, what can blow up missiles. I think I saw it on future weapons about the plane thing.

Besides no person is stupid enough to use them.
 

Good morning blues

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YouGetWhatsGiven said:
All you need is one crazy dictator to end it all.
This is true! However, it is also true that Stalin and Kim Jong-Il never used them. They are as close to entirely irrational leaders as you are close to come, but it hasn't happened. Could it be that even irrational leaders are not dumb enough to use them?

RetiarySword said:
Well nuclear weapons don't mean shit to the EU and US now as they have missile shields. they are counter missiles what launch and blow up the missile without detonating its payload. Russia has them around Moscow as well. Also the US have a plane with a massive laser attached, what can blow up missiles. I think I saw it on future weapons about the plane thing.
Missile shields are notoriously unreliable, and only one missile needs to penetrate it. Additionally, it provides no protection against weapons that aren't delivered by missiles, and if somebody starts selling nukes to Al-Qaeda, you can bet that they won't be delivering them with missiles.
 

[Gavo]

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DoW Lowen said:
Honestly I'm very well divided. I learnt all of this as well, and both make very valid arguments. I can't think of any current situation where the use of Nuclear weapons will be an issue. But then I'm reminded of North Korea and other groups who will willingly destroy civilization for the sake of turning it into rubble and will have no second thoughts of there own destruction. But I do believe that Nuclear deterrence will lead to an increase and escalation in conventional war fare technology, which is another scary thought.
Same here.

Except I'm not that afraid of North Korea. Every time I think of them attacking us with nuclear weapons, I envision a missile streaking out of a hidden bunker underground. Then, about 100 feet up, it breaks and falls back down.
 

Rolling Thunder

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The good thing about MAD is- if it works, there will never be nuclear war.
If it dosen't, then we won't be around anyway.


Another interesting note- nuclear weapons have in essence prevented the titanic clashes of men and machines that we saw in 1914 and 1939. There will never again be that monolithic, golgothan struggle between the superpowers, because now everyone realises that any such war would simply reduce the world to shadows and dust amongst the rubble. Never again will two industrialised nations clash together in war. Wars are fought by proxy, with fewer casulties and less destruction. Yes, it sucks to be the third world country they are fought in, but such nations have less to lose in terms of capital and population anyway.
 

CrafterMan

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No one gives a flying shit about us New Zealanders!

So i'll be watching on the horizon with an ice lemonade and a book.
 

Labyrinth

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Oct 14, 2007
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I take my usual attitude to nuclear war. I expect that it will happen, probably in the next 5 years. Hope to hell it doesn't, but at least I'll be able to choke "I told you so!" past the radiation burns in my lungs and throat.

I don't support any countries or individuals having nuclear weapons. At all. Ever. The thought of all of those warheads sitting there scares me shitless because there is always the possibility that they will be used. Humanity is far too warlike for its own good in that regard. It's times like these I feel like putting the psudo-hippie idea out of "Man.. can't we all just get along?"
 

Rolling Thunder

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"Can't we get along"- Gads, I think it's been proven that we're violent and irrational. Best we just accept it and get on with puporting mass slaughter and cruelty without all the irksome morality.

And I think I managed to prove that nuclear weapons actually have a plus side.
 

Dele

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Fondant said:
The good thing about MAD is- if it works, there will never be nuclear war.
If it dosen't, then we won't be around anyway.


Another interesting note- nuclear weapons have in essence prevented the titanic clashes of men and machines that we saw in 1914 and 1939. There will never again be that monolithic, golgothan struggle between the superpowers, because now everyone realises that any such war would simply reduce the world to shadows and dust amongst the rubble. Never again will two industrialised nations clash together in war. Wars are fought by proxy, with fewer casulties and less destruction. Yes, it sucks to be the third world country they are fought in, but such nations have less to lose in terms of capital and population anyway.
Technically there could be wars with industrialised nations on both sides as not even half of them have their own nukes and even if they had, history has shown us that offensive and defensive weapons are on constant evolution and at different moments defensive or offensive weaponry has an advantage. For example tanks and aircraft countering static warfare which used to be superior. This of course leads to developement of advanced anti-tank and anti-aircraft weaponry forcing these weapons to evolve or be rendered obsolete. Nuclear first strike was the ultimate offensive weapon and second (and third) strike was the ultimate defensive weapon countering the advantage nukes posessed. Now all we need is something countering second and third strikes. The less nukes one has, the easier it is to counter them thus easier to go into war from strategic point of view.

What really stops wars is globalization (capitalism) making it too costly to go into war as we no longer live in a self-suffient nations, huge alliances making it impossible (by modern standard) to survive a nuclear counterstrike and spread of western culture making it largely impossible to wage a major war due lack of popular support.
 

The Iron Ninja

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CrafterMan said:
No one gives a flying shit about us New Zealanders!

So i'll be watching on the horizon with an ice lemonade and a book.
It's true.

We don't have any nukes.
We don't have any real means of defense.
So we pose little to no threat and as such we're a very very low priority target.

I am gleeful in the knowledge that I'll at least get to see the rest of the world burn before it's my turn to do so.

I'm doubtful, yet hoping however, that it wont come to that.
I say we launch them all at the sun. Worst case scenario, the sun does something crazy that, while quite likely fatal, will took totally awesome in the seconds before my eyes get burned out of my skull.
 

The Giggling Pin

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Labyrinth said:
I take my usual attitude to nuclear war. I expect that it will happen, probably in the next 5 years. Hope to hell it doesn't, but at least I'll be able to choke "I told you so!" past the radiation burns in my lungs and throat.
Your a happy soul aren't you?

But on a serious note....

The whole nuclear warfare thing is truly terrifying and the MAD concept, although logical, is flawed when you throw lunatic dictators into the mix. I do feel that the whole 'ga-ga bonkers dictator' nuclear launch is not such a likely thing as people make out, as i don't think (although my very schoolboy psychology is most likely flawed) a world leader who fundamentally desires power over their nation and others would wish to send the world to hell in a hot and fiery nuclear handcart. My reasoning for this is that MAD is not an unheard of and overly complicated concept and if you (thats everybody here) and I have heard of it you can bet your bottom dollar that a world leader, no matter how pants on his head bonkers, has as well. These leaders also do tend to have a modicum of intelligence, albeit slightly twisted, and would surely understand that more power would not be obtained by a nuclear strike.

Hell, i don't know. Maybe i am too trusting but i just don't think that a nuclear war is that likely. I hope i am right...