An itchy doubt

[Grach]

Okay, I have this small question about the issue of gender/race/etc equality in videogames:

Is it worth it?

What I mean by that is that, while it would be nice NOT to play essentially the same white burly dude in every video game, I have the growing fear that the AAA industry will take the easy way out and just give us a reskinned version of said dude. Essentially only doing what amounts to giving us gay/female/trans Marcus Fenix.

Now, I ask this because I sincerely believe that videogames should step out of their comfort zone and give us a story that provides a little perspective, but then again I sincerely believe that videogames (AAA ones I mean) are generally poor or mediocre in terms of story. So I have this growing doubt about this issue that I think should be adressed or at least meditated upon.

So what do you think?

 

[Flutterguy]

Not really. Not the big villain some internet stars make it out to be. Making it into one just makes their job easier.

Bit hypocritical isn't it.

 

[Dr. Cakey]

I don't see how it could make things "worse", so...not seeing the problem. Is there something I'm missing.

 

[Grach]

I don't see how it could make things "worse", so...not seeing the problem. Is there something I'm missing.

It's not about making things worse. It's just if pushing for more representation in AAA games is worth it, since the storytelling chops in AAA titles are a bit bad. So we might end up with just the same gravely voiced character, but with a different gender or race or whatever. Which might be alright to some but frankly I don't think the industry wouldn't really improve from it. The same skin 'cept palette swapped.

 

[Vault101]

[sub/]what is it with thease threads?[/sub]

It's not about making things worse. It's just if pushing for more representation in AAA games is worth it, since the storytelling chops in AAA titles are a bit bad. So we might end up with just the same gravely voiced character, but with a different gender or race or whatever. Which might be alright to some but frankly I don't think the industry wouldn't really improve from it. The same skin 'cept palette swapped.

its all part of the same thing...you want to get "good" then you deal with different kinds of stories

imagine the film industry if 80% of all notable movies were made by Micheal Bay? thats what were dealing with here

 

[Story]

I'm not really seeing the argument here.
How exactly can you palette swap Marcus Fenix?
Now I'm picturing him with long hair in a dress.

 

[LaoJim]

What I mean by that is that, while it would be nice NOT to play essentially the same white burly dude in every video game, I have the growing fear that the AAA industry will take the easy way out and just give us a reskinned version of said dude. Essentially only doing what amounts to giving us gay/female/trans Marcus Fenix.

To a point you are right. It's not just gender, sexuality, race that is the issue. There are a whole bunch of hero archetypes that we don't see much of in games, but might make them more interesting.

James Bond - suave, sophisticated, comfortable in dangerous situations with an eye for the ladies.
Han Solo - lovable criminal with bags of charm who eventually does the right thing.
Doc Brown - Mad inventor with white hair but the enthusiasm of a child.
Jean-Luc Picard - Culture and moralistic leader able to engage with complex issues.
Spiderman - intelligent but nerdy teenager who gets superpowers.

Now I'm not suggesting that writers shouldn't come up with new and original heroes, just that these 5 types tend to be seen less in games and gaming would be slightly more interesting if lazy writers used a balance of these stock white guys rather than the 3 or so stock white guys they are using (Batman, Hicks from Aliens, and a more emo Dirty Harry).

I'm not really seeing the argument here.
How exactly can you palette swap Marcus Fenix?
Now I'm picturing him with long hair in a dress.

Gears of War:Transgression...I'm not too sure, Marcus and Dom's relationship was always funnier when it was in the closet.

 

[Lieju]

So?

Just demand better stories for the AAA games then.
I don't just want better representation and more diversity when it comes to characters, I want more diversity and better writing in themes in general.

Why would you want to always play the same story with the same game-mechanics over and over and over again?

Or if the game lacks content, why shouldn't we point it out?
If the game sells itself as customisable, or free, then criticising the lack of female or gay options is just as legitimate as complaining about how it only has two weapons or no hats.

 

[Happiness Assassin]

I honestly can't think of what would be lost by changing the gender/race/orientation of Marcus Fenix. Why wouldn't it be the exact same amount of work as making Marcus was before?

 

[Gatx]

Well hold on. What exactly about Marcus Fenix/Master Chief/Gordon Freeman/Other white, male protagonist, is distinctly "white?" We equate "white/male" with "normal" but that doesn't mean that "normal" is a quality associated with white people. None of the things that are experienced by those characters are "normal" or in any way affected by their race.

Changing just the race is actually not a bad way to do things since they're saying that every race is equal or that certain personality traits, experiences, etc. are universal.

On the other hand I do see where you're coming from. The character of Wei Shen from Sleeping Dogs is able to bring more to the story of the game because of his race and the setting of the game, but on the other hand because of this association of "white" being "normal" we don't really have stories that actually deal with being "white." We get generic save the world-type plots that feature white people, but nothing about those games says anything about being "white" the way Sleeping Dogs does about being Asian-American.

 

[Zhukov]

Worth what?

It's not like we're paying a terrible price. Just a bit of bickering on the internet and some slightly smug articles.

And the message does seem to be getting through. Although whether it gets a response is another matter.

 

[Signa]

imagine the film industry if 80% of all notable movies were made by Micheal Bay? thats what were dealing with here

*PFFST!* I don't have to imagine. Hollywood wants Bay's numbers in all their movies, and that's mostly what they are putting out.

OT: I agree OP. I do think we need better diversity, and I have never argued against that, but I think the implementation will be crap if people get what they are asking for.

 

[Megalodon]

Just don't play AAA shooters if the protagonists bother people that much? For all the 'too many while, brown haired 30 something' game protagonists, when I look through my Steam Library I see about half a dozen (of 45), and that's pushing the definition somewhat to include stuff like The Bard's Tale, which nobody should ever be taking seriously.

Really it seems to me that the industry is faced with 2 possible outcomes. Either all this internet bitching about race/gender matters, and affects game sales in a meaningful way, or it doesn't. If it doesn't matter, then there's no reason for them to care and change anything, they can just doing what they're doing, as there's clearly a market of consumers that want their product. Or it does matter. In which case they can't win, as it seems that they'll likely catch flak whatever they do: white male character? Racist and sexist. Black Male Character? Sexist. Female character? Still sexist because she was too male/too weak/too sexy/there aren't more in the game/objection du jour. Appropriate ethnic character? Bad because he has an American VA etc. So why not just stick with what you're doing anyway, and stick with the devil you know?

 

[Vault101]

OT: I agree OP. I do think we need better diversity, and I have never argued against that, but I think the implementation will be crap if people get what they are asking for.

and what exactly are people asking for?

 

[Ragsnstitches]

Eh... I'm not sure what the issue here is. Nothing would be lost if they made 90% of all game characters a different colour or gender.

The vast majority of game characters are 2-dimensional "paint by numbers" characters. Making Marcus Fenix black wouldn't change the narrative if the developers didn't want it. Making him a woman wouldn't change the narrative unless they wanted to shoehorn a relationship (because whenever women and men come into proximity they must be courting apparently).

Marcus is a flat and dull character. Nothing would change if they were to change Marcus's physical make up.

Right now is the best time to do these kind of things (actually, 10 years ago would have been but we hadn't progressed far enough). While games are as low brow as they are now is the best situation to try and break comfort zones with gender, race and sexuality, because the more complicated characters and narratives become the harder it will be to implemented these changes.

More diversity is not an issue even if it is hamfisted at first. Just as we come to expect brown haired 30 something straight white men in games now as a result of 2 decades of mostly brown haired 30 something straight white men (which are mostly garbage characters that are unremarkable in any way), with more diverse characters people will become more open to diversity in games and developers will become more comfortable developing diverse casts and protagonists.

Depth and complexity will come with time and talent, but the more resistant we are to these changes the less likely these people will take those "risks".

 

[Signa]

OT: I agree OP. I do think we need better diversity, and I have never argued against that, but I think the implementation will be crap if people get what they are asking for.

and what exactly are people asking for?

That depends on the individual, but as a larger voice, they are looking for appeasement and a shoehorning of their slightly conflicting ideals into a medium that is barely capable of accepting those ideals.

Before you interpret that last part as admitted bigotry, let me define: As a gamer, I've played the roles of plenty of protagonists. I've been tanks, stick figures, action heroes, plumbers, girls, furries, robots, cars, aliens, and whatever the hell Pac-Man is. In none of those games has it actually changed how I view the fun I'm having, or how the game is played. It's a framing device only. Likewise, who or what my tank, stick figure, action hero, plumber, girl, furry, robot, car driver, alien, or Pac-man is sexually attracted to doesn't even enter the game.

Video games are always about handling a presented conflict. The characters we play as are trying to resolve that conflict in the best way they can within the bounds of the game. Issues like transgender acceptance are completely out of place when the world may be ending, or there's at least someone's life to be saved. Shoehorning in that kind of theme will make the issue seem out of place, and more than likely, push people away from the issue if they aren't already involved or don't care.

 

[Vault101]

snip.

youre looking at things way too narrowly

not every games conflict is "shoot the thing" oh a majority of them ARE but if the medium grows then it can and should deal with other issues

and by "deal with" somtimes all that might mean is "have a character who is x" what impact x has on the story is up to whatever the creators want that story to be about

Wolfenstein for example is a game thats a bit smarter than its Watch-dogs counterparts, I mean it goes all the fucking way with making you feel horrified and disgusted at the Natzi's..it also (IMO) deals with sex in a way that actually fits which isn't bad for a game that could have been cheesy and no one would have held it to a higher standard

 

[Imp_Emissary]

So, you're saying games aren't good enough yet at story telling to have diverse characters?

Nah, can't say I agree. Don't get me wrong. Lots of games with meh stories out there. Even so, as others have said, what would we be losing then if we added some non-white or non-male characters? Some possible white male characters?
It's not like we have a shortage of them.

Also, if the companies just make the character a different skin color or a different sex, but do nothing else to change the game. It's not like having them skip that is going to then make them focus on story more.

Plus,

I don't see why if they aid in non-white/non-male/non-straight characters/protagonist, they won't be able to tell some different stories as well.

 

[Signa]

snip.

youre looking at things way too narrowly

not every games conflict is "shoot the thing" oh a majority of them ARE but if the medium grows then it can and should deal with other issues

and by "deal with" somtimes all that might mean is "have a character who is x" what impact x has on the story is up to whatever the creators want that story to be about

Wolfenstein for example is a game thats a bit smarter than its Watch-dogs counterparts, I mean it goes all the fucking way with making you feel horrified and disgusted at the Natzi's..it also (IMO) deals with sex in a way that actually fits which isn't bad for a game that could have been cheesy and no one would have held it to a higher standard

So what it sound like to me is you want an industry with some basic fucking effort in writing their stories, and I agree with that.

I haven't played Wolfenstien beyond the 1991 version [footnote]which is the era I'm going to base my generalizations from[/footnote], but if they are actually tackling those themes, then they should be putting some actual effort into developing those themes. Unless it's a story game like a RPG or a Telltale game, story is secondary to the gameplay. If devs are only fixating on the gameplay and just putting a bare-bones story in place as a framing device, which usually isn't worth the critical analysis people are giving it. It's an uncanny valley syndrome, because if they took more of the story out of the game, you probably wouldn't feel so insulted or left out of something bigger.

I think the problem we might be discussing is just a presentation issue. Bioshock is a shooter series that has captured audiences with its storytelling and gameplay combined. I'm not sure if it's a positive example of feminism in gaming, but it's still a good example where both gameplay and story took a front seat together. The problem is, I don't see feasibly how all shooters can just be more Bioshocks, which is what we are going to need to satisfy audiences who are asking for better writing. We're going to have to have more CoDs, Battlefields, or any other brainless shooter that I'm not really in the mood to think about right now. Really, I'd be happier if games stopped trying to be like movies and just went back to bare-bones framing for gameplay.

 

[Vault101]

[
The problem is, I don't see feasibly how all shooters can just be more Bioshocks, which is what we are going to need to satisfy audiences who are asking for better writing. We're going to have to have more CoDs, Battlefields, or any other brainless shooter that I'm not really in the mood to think about right now.

not all shooters have to be on the level of Bioshock...people like their COD's and theit Titanfalls..I like my XCOM and theme hospital

[quote/]Really, I'd be happier if games stopped trying to be like movies and just went back to bare-bones framing for gameplay.[/quote]
I'm split on this, I like my cutscenes just fine and I honestly never got peoples praise for "the half life method" oh sure its immersive and its cool but its really just another cutscene where you control the camera

I think a good question to ask is "if this were a movie what, if anything would anything be lost?" I can't think of many movies like Bioshock Infinite in terms of setting and scale and XCOM wouldn't be near as much fun if The Blond russian assault trooper I nicknamed "Babooshka" was not one of my main heros