Andromeda's Troubled Development

AD-Stu

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Zhukov said:
I can't speak for what people at Bioware personally wanted, but given how hard they fucked up the trilogy ending, I'm not sure if either of those other two reasons apply.

I mean, were people really howling for a new Mass Effect? Every single conversation I saw about it before Andromeda came out revolved around the question of, "Yeah, but how do they do it after That Ending?"

Bioware and EA both knew that they done fucked it up. I think at that point they would have garnered more goodwill and excitement by saying "Hay, a fresh new IP!" than by saying, "Hey, a sequel to that series with the shit ending!"
Can't remember where I read it now, but it was as part of the fallout from the Andromeda launch: prior to launch EA expected Andromeda to sell at least as many, if not more, units than ME3. They obviously didn't think the ME3 ending was that big of a deal, and they had market research suggesting that more Mass Effect was a thing people wanted.

At the end of the day it's an established brand, and it's usually cheaper for companies to leverage that existing brand equity (even if it's been slightly tarnished) than it is to start from scratch. Which is why I can't see EA allowing Bioware to develop another space-exploration sci-fi RPG property without slapping the Mass Effect label on it.
 

Wrex Brogan

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Honestly, as much shit as EA gets given this feels like a serious case of miss-management from the Bioware higher ups. Pushing for new tech, sticking to something that wasn't working for too long, reshuffling people around that resulted in too few staff to do an adequate job... that's on the heads of department, project leads and CEOs.

Like, don't get me wrong, EA has fucked over Bioware before *cough* Dragon Age II *cough* and is a pretty god-awful company, but this time it feels like Bioware themselves dropped the ball for the most part.
 

Casual Shinji

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So from the looks of it it was due to a failure of management. A pre-production that apparently never finished, creating uncertainty among the developement team, which inturn probably didn't help the creative process.

So it wasn't EA's fault this time (apart from forcing the Frostbyte engine on the team) but just Bioware royally mucking things up. Or maybe it goes to show that Triple-A developement has become so fucking enormous that a few problems in management can snowball out of control like this.
 

Chimpzy_v1legacy

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Having read all of that article (an interesting read, btw), things are a whole lot clearer on why Andromeda turned out the way it did.
 

CaitSeith

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They initially planned to make "Mass Effect meets No Man's Sky" in an engine they have never worked in beforehand? That should had set up red flags from the start. It was too ambitious and the waters too untested.
 

Darth Rosenberg

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Eh, the echo chamber of negativity and petty, self-entitled axe grinding means there's little point in me saying much, but I finished it just a few days ago and feel it's a rather superb game - better in many respects than the trilogy.

To me the only real fault that matters is that ME:A was released in the state that it was - and even that issue could be solved by canny players; I chose to hold off for several patches, and when I started playing it was almost entirely bug free, and bar some iffy behaviour of eyes and some less than impressive facial animations, I couldn't see what any of the fuss was about.

Troubled productions in any medium can lead to great creations, and regardless of all the hurdles and direction changes, I reckon the people who worked on Andromeda should be incredibly proud of their accomplishment.

And yeah, if that article paints an accurate picture of events, it's clear the inane line of 'derp, EA to blame!' can be summarily dismissed.
 

Sonicron

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It should never have released in the state that it did, obviously, and the niggles piled up over the course of the game into something too annoying to be ignored. That said, I spent over 100 hours on my run and still heartily enjoyed my ride. The concept of "Bob the Builder in Space" was appealing in and of itself and executed compellingly enough to really draw me in, and some of the characters grew on me a lot. By the time I reached the final mission (and WHAT a kickass final mission, especially the Nomad part!) I was genuinely sad to see the game end.
I just hope the franchise won't be stuck in the freezer for too long after this. The ME universe has soooooooooo much potential for great stories, and I want more of them. Don't even have to continue on from Andromeda, just give me more story goodness.
 

sageoftruth

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I read the article.
"Instead of visiting just a few planets, they said, what if you could explore hundreds?"
That was a big warning light. After No Man's Sky. That, and the mention of Frostbite
Reading about Frostbite reminded me of back when I had to write code using C. Definitely the kind of idea one would expect from a publisher who knows nothing about process involved in making its product.
 

BloatedGuppy

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But seriously yup, I blame EA primarily. I only read about half the article since I couldn't care less about this overrated series, but if the developer were struggling, it was because they weren't given the various resources needed (money, talent, time, etc.) to do what they wanted, which EA should have plenty of.
 

AD-Stu

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Guilion said:
So after Reading an archive of the article the team planned the game incorrectly, spent 2 years wasting the companies' resources and then fucking started the game form near zero again to be completed in 18 months?! And then the article pretends they're the victims here?!

It may be my inner auditor speaking but I would've fired half of the team too, wow guys great work.
FWIW it sounds pretty equal to me - not giving up on procedural worlds soon enough is on Bioware, but forcing them to move to an engine that was going to massively increase development time was on EA.
 
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TheVampwizimp said:
bastardofmelbourne said:
Edit: Okay, I've read the article now, and it seems like EA's influence was pretty minimal. Unless EA made the decision to use Frostbite, because a lot of the problems with animations and such seem to come from the decision to use Frostbite instead of something more malleable.

Really, it seems like a game where they faffed about for a while, changed what they were doing halfway through, kept replacing the tech they were using, kept replacing the people who were using the tech, and never really got a clear sense of what the fuck it was they were trying to do. Maybe some fault lies with EA for pushing the release date, but at that point the game had been in development for five years. I dunno.
Oh, it was certainly EA's edict that they change the engine to Frostbite. DICE, another EA subsidiary, developed Frostbite for Battlefield, and EA went "Hey, Battlefield makes us money. Let's have Dragon Age and Mass Effect use Battlefield's game engine, so they will also make us money!" Bioware as a studio has never prioritized graphics, and trying to adapt a very specialized engine to a design it wasn't made for, just for the sake of pretty graphics, is the kind of one-dimensional thinking that publishers use to make decisions in spite of developers knowing better.
I remember when DAI launched, the devs said that they had to do a huge amount of work on Frostbite just to get it to perform basic RPG functions like track and use character stats. They also mentioned that Frostbite didn't know how to deal with animation and AI control of quadrupeds, so they had to add whole new components to get it to work, and the final result was pretty poor in the end. Frostbite is a bad fit for RPGs but EA want everyone on one engine to keep costs down, and who cares if the engine isn't fit for purpose.
 

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sageoftruth said:
I read the article.
"Instead of visiting just a few planets, they said, what if you could explore hundreds?"
That was a big warning light. After No Man's Sky.
I'm not defending Bioware and their crappy management of this whole thing, but NMS came out all of last year ago, and by the point NMS dropped(and everyone saw how short it fell of the Mark), Andromeda had already abandoned the idea as well. They just didn't abandon it nearly quickly enough.
 

Kerg3927

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AD-Stu said:
Kerg3927 said:
This is just pure speculation, but I think the main problem can be summed up by looking at #10 on the following list...

best selling video games of all time (Wikipedia) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games]

Bioware (or EA) saw Skyrim sales figures and got greedy. They were the best in the world at what they did well, making confined, mostly-linear, story/character-driven RPG's in which you meet and get to know a handful of well-written, interesting, and likeable characters, and together you go out and save the world against all odds.

They were the Michael Jordan of those types of games, and they threw it all away to go play minor league baseball.
The thing is I don't necessarily think this was a bad direction to take Mass Effect, having a big galaxy with open maps to explore, if they'd gotten the other stuff right. One of my biggest non-ending bugbears with ME3 was that while you technically did missions on Sur'kesh and Thessia, it never felt like you actually went there: you just did one 30-minute mission in one building then skedaddled. For better or worse, I at least feel like I've been to Havarl and Kadara and the other planets in Andromeda.

The problem for me was they just didn't get all the other stuff right...
I'm biased because I don't like massive open world games. For example, even with its flaws, I thought ME3 was ten times the game Witcher 3 was. TW3 was done very well for what it was, but to me massive open world is an inherently inferior RPG format.

Why would I want to explore Thessia? It's a war zone, and I have a mission to get in and get out with the catalyst info. Stopping to wander around exploring and doing fetch quests would have destroyed the urgency of the plot.
 

sageoftruth

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Dalisclock said:
sageoftruth said:
I read the article.
"Instead of visiting just a few planets, they said, what if you could explore hundreds?"
That was a big warning light. After No Man's Sky.
I'm not defending Bioware and their crappy management of this whole thing, but NMS came out all of last year ago, and by the point NMS dropped(and everyone saw how short it fell of the Mark), Andromeda had already abandoned the idea as well. They just didn't abandon it nearly quickly enough.
True. After reading the article, I pity the poor souls that got struck trying to make this game under the conditions they were given. Still, reading the line I'd quoted above felt like jumping back to the beginning of a Greek Tragedy I'd just finished reading.
 

Blitsie

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BloatedGuppy said:
bastardofmelbourne said:
Really, it seems like a game where they faffed about for a while, changed what they were doing halfway through, kept replacing the tech they were using, kept replacing the people who were using the tech, and never really got a clear sense of what the fuck it was they were trying to do. Maybe some fault lies with EA for pushing the release date, but at that point the game had been in development for five years. I dunno.
I tend to agree, it's just...this seems to happen a lot to developers under EA's portfolio. Might just be a coincidence...EA is a mega publisher with a LOT of developers working under their umbrella...but you wonder if there isn't some bad corporate oversight involved.
Hrmmm, thinking about it; when EA buys a developer over, all the exceptionally good staff usually start running for the hills after they finish their first game under them as a publisher, and in a lot of cases staff just keep spilling out or the remaining ones can't do anything worthwhile to the point where they just get shut down. This happened with Westwood, Bullfrog, Pandemic, and its happening with Bioware now. From what I understand, all the old guys who were involved in the creation of greats like KOTOR and Jade Empire left long ago already, and I don't think its a coincidence since then Bioware has completely fallen off the map, and we have the disappointment that is Andromeda.

Sooo I'm guessing its a bit of both; Bioware not having much talent working there anymore to make truly exceptional stuff, because said talent left due to EA being a shit publisher to work with. And yeah, EA just being a shit publisher to work with.
 

pookie101

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sounds like a perfect storm. no decent management, smaller studio who have only made a dlc.. its probably a miracle they pulled off what they did in 18 months. it could of been soo much worse
 

Joccaren

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I blame both Bioware and EA fairly equally.

EA have obviously fucked up the management side of this equation, and lets not even try to pretend that the idea of using Frostbite - an engine Bioware knew didn't work that well for RPGs - for an RPG, didn't come from EA trying to push its proprietary engine. Had they the option to use the Unreal engine from the prior games and just expand on it again, things would have worked better. EA, ironically, obviously provided too little oversight to the project if it had two teams virtually going to war over it. That's bad management. They needed someone better in that role, clearer instructions on what each team was doing, and firmer enforcement of that. EA probably was also the one that wanted a new Mass Effect, especially given this Bioware is a different support studio, rather than the main "We are Mass Effect" studio.

Bioware, however, is not innocent. EA likely did want to go after the Open World Market, as shown by a lot of their recent games [Though notably not all], however I think its important to note that developers are humans and gamers as well, not just robots that pump out finished products, and this Bioware is obviously far less disciplined than the Bioware that made ME1, or Baldur's Gate. A big part of these projects is deciding which dreams get cut, and keeping everything in scope. Get a focused vision, build it, then iterate on it to improve it and make it more fun. Bioware... Didn't have a clear vision from the start. They were likely just as guilty as EA of going "Oh hey, did you see TW3? And no Man's Sky/Elite Dangerous/Dwarf Fortress/Minecraft? Great idea, but sucked with execution. Imagine if we could make, like, the whole Andromeda Galaxy for people to play in, and they could go anywhere and do whatever they wanted. Wouldn't that be awesome? Sure, maybe we can't make the whole galaxy, but what about huge open planets that really builds on that thing from ME1 where you explored the empty planets, but made far better? And better combat than the previous game, and more RPG elements, and more loot, and an epic story and...". Dreams. Feature Creep. Bloat. Rather than defining what they wanted to make very clearly at the beginning and working towards that, they had some vague idea of what might sound cool and be fun so maybe we try this and try to get everything working brilliantly. I was thinking on writing a huge exposition of what was wrong with the game, but it ain't worth the effort. Put simply, this Bioware team, alongside the ME3 team, lack the experience and discipline of the old studios, and have a lack of clear studio culture. They just kinda jumble stuff together that sounds kinda cool on paper, and hope it turns out alright. The old Bioware had obvious cultures to their teams, and the Dragon Age team to some extent still maintains this. A clear image of the types of games they want to make, and do make. Its what we identify a "Bioware" game as. There is nothing to attribute to new ME Bioware except excessive ambition without the discipline to pull it off.

So, overall, both have a foot in this mess. EA is doubtless the mastermind behind it all, failing to actually plan effectively for anything, and trying to shoehorn in their own brand of BS where it doesn't belong, but Bioware just aren't up to the task of making large games - either of the ME studios. Their leads are as incompetent as EAs, and it shows in the games they're making.
 

CaitSeith

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Zhukov said:
bastardofmelbourne said:
From what I hear it was a mix of everything, so I'm inclined to blame everyone involved and ask why they didn't try doing something new, like what the Killzone devs did with Horizon: Zero Dawn.
According to the article them trying to do something new was half the problem.

The started out to make an exploration game with spaceflight and hundreds of procedurally generated (huuurk!) planets to land on. So yeah, basically No Man's Sky with a Bioware story somehow integrated.

Surprise, surprise, that turned out to be a bad idea. The tech never came together and they ended up making everything by hand anyway during the last year or two as reality set in.

It's bizarre to me that so many presumably otherwise intelligent people keep thinking that procedural generation is good for anything other than cheaply producing reams upon reams of utterly forgettable paint-by-ones-and-zeros crap.
It's an easier way to generate content bigger than open-worlds without having to worry about putting stuff manually in every inch of the world. They discovered too late that they don't tend to be good enough.
 

AD-Stu

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Kerg3927 said:
Why would I want to explore Thessia? It's a war zone, and I have a mission to get in and get out with the catalyst info. Stopping to wander around exploring and doing fetch quests would have destroyed the urgency of the plot.
Sure, they made plot decisions to justify / cover over only spending a tiny amount of time on those planets. But compare that in the same game to Rannoch and Tuchanka. We got a much better feel for what they were like as planets and places to live because they put more effort into spending time there (without pointless fetch quests).

In the context of ME3's "save the galaxy right this minute" plot, a certain amount of streamlining and linearity made sense. In the context of Andromeda's "we're in a brand new galaxy, we don't know a damn thing about it and we need to find a home" plot though, I think the open worlds and exploration and yes, even a certain amount of faffing about or seemingly trivial stuff to ingratiate yourself with the locals make a hell of a lot of sense.