Andromeda's Troubled Development

Kerg3927

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AD-Stu said:
Kerg3927 said:
Why would I want to explore Thessia? It's a war zone, and I have a mission to get in and get out with the catalyst info. Stopping to wander around exploring and doing fetch quests would have destroyed the urgency of the plot.
Sure, they made plot decisions to justify / cover over only spending a tiny amount of time on those planets. But compare that in the same game to Rannoch and Tuchanka. We got a much better feel for what they were like as planets and places to live because they put more effort into spending time there (without pointless fetch quests).

In the context of ME3's "save the galaxy right this minute" plot, a certain amount of streamlining and linearity made sense. In the context of Andromeda's "we're in a brand new galaxy, we don't know a damn thing about it and we need to find a home" plot though, I think the open worlds and exploration and yes, even a certain amount of faffing about or seemingly trivial stuff to ingratiate yourself with the locals make a hell of a lot of sense.
Cool. I bought Andromeda, but haven't played it past the prologue yet. I figure I have to play it because the ME trilogy is made up of some of my all time favorite games. But I'm torn because I don't generally like massive open world, and I didn't like DAI. Then with the launch issues, I figured I'd wait until they've patched it up. Probably play it later this year at some point.
 

Danbo Jambo

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Some great posts in this thread, and for me it's a combination of 3 main factors which folk have already mentioned:

1) The mathmatical approach made by business execs to games (e.g. Skyrim sold loads, it's open world, that's the "fad", make everything open world;

2) The pre-order, buy-hype culture which means devs can enforce that mathmatical approach without really giving that much of a toss if the game ends up any good or not;

3) The DLC/post release Mod culture - why make a complete & sound game, when people will spend time modding it after for free?

To change this culture don't pre-order AAA games; don't buy AAA games unless they truly are something special; invest your money in indie or smaller gaming devs (Take Spiders game - The Technomancer. I loved it and it's FAR better than ME:A - buy it!); and don't pick games developed by these smaller studios apart for minor flaws/fault.

On the minor flaws/faults point - does anyone think it'd be a wise move for smaller devs to return to none-voiced protagonists like in Skyrim & Fallout? It'd save a few quid, and I really don't see what it adds unless the protagonist is very much part of the story like say Geralt.

And how many gravelly voiced heroes do we need anyway? Geralt, Snake, Jensen, Batman etc. It's got to a point now where games are starting to feel like we're all playing the same protagonist anyway.
 

pookie101

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Kerg3927 said:
AD-Stu said:
Kerg3927 said:
Why would I want to explore Thessia? It's a war zone, and I have a mission to get in and get out with the catalyst info. Stopping to wander around exploring and doing fetch quests would have destroyed the urgency of the plot.
Sure, they made plot decisions to justify / cover over only spending a tiny amount of time on those planets. But compare that in the same game to Rannoch and Tuchanka. We got a much better feel for what they were like as planets and places to live because they put more effort into spending time there (without pointless fetch quests).

In the context of ME3's "save the galaxy right this minute" plot, a certain amount of streamlining and linearity made sense. In the context of Andromeda's "we're in a brand new galaxy, we don't know a damn thing about it and we need to find a home" plot though, I think the open worlds and exploration and yes, even a certain amount of faffing about or seemingly trivial stuff to ingratiate yourself with the locals make a hell of a lot of sense.
Cool. I bought Andromeda, but haven't played it past the prologue yet. I figure I have to play it because the ME trilogy is made up of some of my all time favorite games. But I'm torn because I don't generally like massive open world, and I didn't like DAI. Then with the launch issues, I figured I'd wait until they've patched it up. Probably play it later this year at some point.
while i like andromeda.. i am the first to admit the worlds feel just like the different locations in DAi.. just bigger so you need a vehicle
 

pookie101

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Danbo Jambo said:
Some great posts in this thread, and for me it's a combination of 3 main factors which folk have already mentioned:

1) The mathmatical approach made by business execs to games (e.g. Skyrim sold loads, it's open world, that's the "fad", make everything open world;

2) The pre-order, buy-hype culture which means devs can enforce that mathmatical approach without really giving that much of a toss if the game ends up any good or not;

3) The DLC/post release Mod culture - why make a complete & sound game, when people will spend time modding it after for free?

To change this culture don't pre-order AAA games; don't buy AAA games unless they truly are something special; invest your money in indie or smaller gaming devs (Take Spiders game - The Technomancer. I loved it and it's FAR better than ME:A - buy it!); and don't pick games developed by these smaller studios apart for minor flaws/fault.

On the minor flaws/faults point - does anyone think it'd be a wise move for smaller devs to return to none-voiced protagonists like in Skyrim & Fallout? It'd save a few quid, and I really don't see what it adds unless the protagonist is very much part of the story like say Geralt.

And how many gravelly voiced heroes do we need anyway? Geralt, Snake, Jensen, Batman etc. It's got to a point now where games are starting to feel like we're all playing the same protagonist anyway.
1 and 3 arent really relevant to andromeda.. its not an open world game, there doesnt look like there will be dlc and you definitely can mod it to fix issues.

2 is very much an issue with every AAA game. i totally agree with you there

haha good point about the voice acting.. the do tend to blur.. its another reason i tend to prefer the female characters the voice acting is more diverse.

i have to say you are the only person ive ever seen rave about technomancer.. most people seem to think its a 6-7 out of 10
 

AD-Stu

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Danbo Jambo said:
Some great posts in this thread, and for me it's a combination of 3 main factors which folk have already mentioned:

1) The mathmatical approach made by business execs to games (e.g. Skyrim sold loads, it's open world, that's the "fad", make everything open world;

2) The pre-order, buy-hype culture which means devs can enforce that mathmatical approach without really giving that much of a toss if the game ends up any good or not;

3) The DLC/post release Mod culture - why make a complete & sound game, when people will spend time modding it after for free?

To change this culture don't pre-order AAA games; don't buy AAA games unless they truly are something special; invest your money in indie or smaller gaming devs (Take Spiders game - The Technomancer. I loved it and it's FAR better than ME:A - buy it!); and don't pick games developed by these smaller studios apart for minor flaws/fault.

On the minor flaws/faults point - does anyone think it'd be a wise move for smaller devs to return to none-voiced protagonists like in Skyrim & Fallout? It'd save a few quid, and I really don't see what it adds unless the protagonist is very much part of the story like say Geralt.

And how many gravelly voiced heroes do we need anyway? Geralt, Snake, Jensen, Batman etc. It's got to a point now where games are starting to feel like we're all playing the same protagonist anyway.
I'm not really sure that 1 or 3 apply to ME:A either. From the publisher side, it's pretty clearly the multiplayer (with the accompanying microtransactions) that's the bit EA forces them to include, not the open world thing. Their sales expectations were based on what ME:3 did, and that was definitely not an open world game. The open world thing seems to have been something Bioware drove themselves, as something they thought would be good for the game and more in line with the feel of ME1.

As for 3, they didn't do a season DLC pass for this game. And Mass Effect has never had a particularly strong modding culture. In fact with this series the fanbase has almost always put the onus back on Bioware to fix their problems for them (the Extended Cut ME3 ending, etc.).

2 is of course a perennial issue with all kinds of games :p

As for whether we could go back to unvoiced games... yeah for the right game we probably could, but I don't see it working for a Mass Effect title. Full VA has been part of these games since day one, it'd feel weird to cut it out now. Plus Mass Effect has never really gone for the gravelly-voiced protagonist thing: not with Shepard, or Ryder, of either gender.
 

ANGRYWOLVES

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The game is not a bad game.You need to go read the Jason Shrier article if you haven't read it and are interested in Andromeda and what went wrong.
The game had terrible issues and a lot of mgmt mistakes were made.
There likely won't be any dlc.
Fanboys on the MEA subreddit have challenged the article so Jason went on the MEA subreddit to defend it.He was not well received.I was kicked off the reddit for defending the article.
shrugs No great loss.Without dlc that reddit likely won't last a lot longer.

I joined the pre-EA BSN back years ago after BG2 had just came out.Things were wonderous then.The game was well received and the fans respected each other and the developers.Where has all that gone I wonder ?
Maybe it is time for Bioware to go the way of Maxis , Westwood Studios and the other studios EA has destroyed and just go away.Just go away.
Edit
 

pookie101

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ANGRYWOLVES said:
The game is not a bad game.You need to go read the Jason Shrier article if you haven't read it and are interested in Andromeda and what went wrong.
The game had terrible issues and a lot of mgmt mistakes were made.
There likely won't be any dlc.
Fanboys on the MEA subreddit have challenged the article so Jason went on the MEA subreddit to defend it.He was not well received.I was kicked off the reddit for defending the article.
shrugs No great loss.Without dlc that reddit likely won't last a lot longer.

I joined the pre-EA BSN back years ago after BG2 had just came out.Things were wonderous then.The game was well received and the fans respected each other and the developers.Where has all that gone I wonder ?
Maybe it is time for Bioware to go the way of Maxis , Westwood Studios and the other studios EA has destroyed and just go away.Just go away.
Edit
these days bioware is just a brand name rather than a mark of quality.. heck they had their main rpg team working on anthem a destiny clone

that said im still disappointed there wont be closure to the andromeda story
 

Danbo Jambo

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pookie101 said:
1 and 3 arent really relevant to andromeda.. its not an open world game, there doesnt look like there will be dlc and you definitely can mod it to fix issues.

2 is very much an issue with every AAA game. i totally agree with you there

haha good point about the voice acting.. the do tend to blur.. its another reason i tend to prefer the female characters the voice acting is more diverse.

i have to say you are the only person ive ever seen rave about technomancer.. most people seem to think its a 6-7 out of 10
AD-Stu said:
I'm not really sure that 1 or 3 apply to ME:A either. From the publisher side, it's pretty clearly the multiplayer (with the accompanying microtransactions) that's the bit EA forces them to include, not the open world thing. Their sales expectations were based on what ME:3 did, and that was definitely not an open world game. The open world thing seems to have been something Bioware drove themselves, as something they thought would be good for the game and more in line with the feel of ME1.

As for 3, they didn't do a season DLC pass for this game. And Mass Effect has never had a particularly strong modding culture. In fact with this series the fanbase has almost always put the onus back on Bioware to fix their problems for them (the Extended Cut ME3 ending, etc.).

2 is of course a perennial issue with all kinds of games :p

As for whether we could go back to unvoiced games... yeah for the right game we probably could, but I don't see it working for a Mass Effect title. Full VA has been part of these games since day one, it'd feel weird to cut it out now. Plus Mass Effect has never really gone for the gravelly-voiced protagonist thing: not with Shepard, or Ryder, of either gender.
I think ME:A is an example though of how they've taken an RPG formula, and tried to make it work in a more open-world-esq style, just to tick various boxes, and it's not worked.

ME was at it's best as an RPG, yet for some reason they've decided to change that several times and it's never made for anywhere near as good experience as the earlier ME games.

It would be interesting to see how things would go without a voice protagonist. Personally I think it adds little to the game unless the character in the spotlight isn't customisable, and is a very distinct person themselves (like Geralt).

Oh And The Technomancer still remains my fave game on the PS4, better than TW3 for me hands down. It needs tweaking, baring with, and played right (e.g. I hated the combat styles other than Rogue, but LOVED the Rogue one), but it's just a wonderous, atmospheric, fun experience. People who do it down are for me taking a very mathmatical approach to the game. If your more emotive and just want a vibe to lose yourself in, in this case stranded sci-fi on Mars, it's bang on. Very much in the Life Is Strange bracket of flawed, but about way more than the mechanics & top layer engagements.
 

AD-Stu

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Danbo Jambo said:
I think ME:A is an example though of how they've taken an RPG formula, and tried to make it work in a more open-world-esq style, just to tick various boxes, and it's not worked.

ME was at it's best as an RPG, yet for some reason they've decided to change that several times and it's never made for anywhere near as good experience as the earlier ME games.
When you say "earlier ME games" though, what do you mean? There's only been four of them, so it's gotta be either 1 or 2, right?

2 was the game that moved furthest away from the RPG style (at least in a gameplay sense) and focused on being a pure cover-based shooter. If that was ME at its best, and I know a lot of people think it was (I don't necessarily agree), it was also ME at its least-RPG state.

1 was probably the series in its most-RPG state, but are we forgetting that it was full of "open" worlds too? They just weren't very interesting open worlds. In a lot of ways I see Andromeda as doing what ME1 set out to do, only better. There are, of course, also things it did worse :p
 

Darth Rosenberg

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AD-Stu said:
1 was probably the series in its most-RPG state, but are we forgetting that it was full of "open" worlds too? They just weren't very interesting open worlds. In a lot of ways I see Andromeda as doing what ME1 set out to do, only better.
I'd say DA:I is the more constructive comparison given the huge similarities between the two, and for me ME:A was DA:I done 'right' in pretty much every possible way (at least in terms of game flow and the structural relationship between main story and all the other stuff A/RPG's include).

There are, of course, also things it did worse :p
...y'mean a game isn't just a bad thing or a good thing, it can be several things at once?! Madness!!

Personally, I feel ME:A was only really worse than the trilogy - or DA:I - with its writing, in that it certainly had less consistent quality, and whilst all BioWare games have their weak moments/characters/etc, ME:A could wildly oscillate between good enough, sometimes excellent, and occasionally rather terrible, which as a BioWare 'fan' I don't think I've really experienced in any of their other games. Given all that's apparently come out about its production, that makes perfect sense as the gameplay's, by and large, rock solid (ME's core combat's always been deeply underwhelming - ME:A's is at least more lively and dynamic).
 

AD-Stu

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Darth Rosenberg said:
There are, of course, also things it did worse :p
...y'mean a game isn't just a bad thing or a good thing, it can be several things at once?! Madness!!

Personally, I feel ME:A was only really worse than the trilogy - or DA:I - with its writing, in that it certainly had less consistent quality, and whilst all BioWare games have their weak moments/characters/etc, ME:A could wildly oscillate between good enough, sometimes excellent, and occasionally rather terrible, which as a BioWare 'fan' I don't think I've really experienced in any of their other games. Given all that's apparently come out about its production, that makes perfect sense as the gameplay's, by and large, rock solid (ME's core combat's always been deeply underwhelming - ME:A's is at least more lively and dynamic).
I know - heresy, right? ;)

Agree 100% with everything else you've said, and the story was the first thing I had in mind when it comes to the things Andromeda did worse. Which is a shame. Saren/Sovereign was obviously a great antagonist in the first ME game, and Andromeda is severely lacking something like that - I just don't get that same feeling from the kett and the Archon. It's not like the previous games were perfect though: ME1 in particular has some brain-bendingly stupid plot points if you stop and think about them. The characters and the game world carried it, but it was also a much shorter and more scripted game than Andromeda.

Of course, it's a bit hard to judge since Andromeda clearly wasn't meant to be a stand-alone story, there were obviously plans to further develop the kett and wherever the hell the Scourge came from in future installments. The same was most definitely true of ME1 as well. But pacing was definitely an issue for Andromeda, there just wasn't enough to carry a 100-odd hour game.

As for the combat I agree. At first I was weirded out by the absence of the pause and give commands to the squadmates mechanic, but now I feel like it'd be pretty clunky going back to the old games (I've been playing the original trilogy pretty much non-stop since I first played ME1, but I haven't gone back to any of them since getting Andromeda).
 

Darth Rosenberg

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AD-Stu said:
Agree 100% with everything else you've said, and the story was the first thing I had in mind when it comes to the things Andromeda did worse. Which is a shame. Saren/Sovereign was obviously a great antagonist in the first ME game, and Andromeda is severely lacking something like that - I just don't get that same feeling from the kett and the Archon.
I wouldn't agree with that, in fact I feel ME:A's story and certainly premise is superior in terms of sci-fi to anything in the trilogy; crossing to another galaxy with new cultures and new mysteries, a human-AI symbiote, the fate of the other Arks, etc. The trilogy presented an established universe, and whilst the player was meeting these species and cultures for the first time, it was more or less old hat to Shepard and co. Its only mystery was 'how about dem Reapers!'.

In ME:A? Not only have they crossed an intergalactic expanse with, arguably, greater mysteries (spoiler territory: who were the Remnant and what caused them to bugger off? who created the Scourge and why? why did the Remnant create the angara, and/or did they give them a 'purpose'? do the kett really only come to conquer, or is there more to them? why is the hitherto lost quarian Ark warning people away from its location?), but the first-contact experience is true for the player and the characters, which leads me to another area I feel ME:A trumps the trilogy on; player character and player POV.

Shepard - particularly FemShep - became an icon, great. But I never liked Shep's rather frustrating halfway house between writer's character and our own; she wasn't a defined character in her own right, neither did I as a player have enough agency over who I wanted her to be. I found her ultimately stolid and quite inert. 'Cool', sure, but that's about it.

But Ryder? Not only are the siblings more defined characters, they have elements around them which expose this, i.e. they - like Hawke in DAII - have something vital to react to in family. Originally BioWare spoke about creating a more defined, linear character in Shepard for ME1, but only with ME:A do I feel they succeeded, and Ryder's POV is more fitting for ME:A's premise than Shepard ever was for the trilogy. As in; a family of explorers and thrillseekers being placed in a whole new galactic frontier. In terms of synergy of lead character and player POV through a narrative, ME:A trumps the trilogy with ease for me (as well as DA:I).

So no, I feel its actual story is better - it's just its writing is far less consistent.

And despite their painfully bland design, I've come to see the kett as one of BioWare's best cannon fodder enemies. The geth had great designs, and they eventually became an interesting species, but ME2 and 3 had utter dross providing your cannon fodder; no matter how much I love ME2, the Collectors were nothing but rote filler whilst the series took a break for some great character and world narrative. And the Reaper forces were just run of the mill mindless minions (the less said about the ridiculous Cerberus humans-but-not-humans the better). Also, to compare ME:A to its spiritual sibling; DA:I's Corypheus flavoured cannon fodder were tediously bland.

But the kett? Initially they do come across poorly, but like the geth they have an interesting origin story - and it's one we don't discover, giving them a unique sense of mystery. They are not mindless like the Collectors and Reaper forces (or the Illusive Man's shitty drone troopers) in that they have a demonstrable culture, and yet it's one which results - seemingly - from either extreme genetic self tampering, or perhaps tampering from other forces (perhaps other creators, like the Remnant). They are also very ritualistic, and their organisation/structure seems to be similar to Rome's Republic, which makes the Archon a distinctly believable distant campaigner overreaching for the sake of their own hubris and greed. Had the Initiative and the Pathfinder not prevailed, it's easy so assume the Archon could've built up a powerbase in the cluster, then turned his forces back home to cross a kett Rubicon.

...the Archon's boring as fuck, sure, but in cultural context he's at least a very believable despot, and it's clear the Senate do not approve of his actions in the cluster. To me, this gives the kett layers none of the other cannon fodder in the series have had (as great as the geth looked and sounded in ME1, they really were just tin cans with flashlights to endlessly shoot).

So yes, ME:A lacks a charismatic solo antagonist - but it clearly didn't try to match that design at all, and I feel what the Archon represented was ultimately more interesting contextually to Saren and his fairly ho-hum indoctrination arc.

Of course, it's a bit hard to judge since Andromeda clearly wasn't meant to be a stand-alone story, there were obviously plans to further develop the kett and wherever the hell the Scourge came from in future installments. The same was most definitely true of ME1 as well. But pacing was definitely an issue for Andromeda, there just wasn't enough to carry a 100-odd hour game.
I think we'll still see the story continue, and I think both ME1 and ME:A delivered superb endings whilst setting up some great plot points and mysteries. Although one could say ME:A's is more definitive, given Meridian is settled, and unlike ME1's impending Reapers there is really nothing guaranteed to cause a ruckus anytime soon.

Re the underlined, though: given ME:A's structure and gameflow was so different to ME1, I don't feel that's a fair assessment. And, again, I actually feel ME:A does what it does superbly, in that it pretty much was DA:I In Space yet fixed pretty much all its issues; the plot and premise suited its semi-open world design - you're there to explore and settle worlds, but another plot runs concurrent. In DA:I the main story and all the other nonsense felt almost entirely removed at times. In ME:A? The player is never 'punished' for focusing on settling worlds, or focusing on the main story. In fact I'd say it's one of the very best balances I've seen in an A/RPG or RPG, particularly given how the post-credits experience is a seamless continuation of what's been established and justified by the whole premise.

Post-Corypheus, the Inquisitor is really just kicking her heels. The player can do 'stuff', but it all feels rather hollow given the grand threat's been dealt with. In ME:A? If the player didn't choose to max all the sidequests, loyalty missions, and viability tasks before the final story mission, then they likely have a scattering of engaging tasks to do, which fits the narrative hand-in-glove (establishing outposts on worlds clearly isn't the end of a Pathfinder's or the Initiative's role).

I think ME1 took me around 90hrs to clear for the first time, and ME:A wasn't even 'cleared' - given its DA:I-esque semi-open-world design and seamless narrative structuring - after 100hrs (though I had done most things). ME:A's main story could be burnt through very quickly, sure, just as with DA:I's. But to do so is rather to miss the point of the its entire design ethos, and so I don't feel a lack of story content is a justified criticism. If someone prefers rigid linearity and a greater focus on one arc in their A/RPG narrative? Then fair enough, that's obviously a legitimate subjective preference. In the series so far I'd say ME3's by far the best linear example they've done, and ME:A's an excellent semi-open-worlder.

(I'd say it gives more options for soft-RP, too; some Ryder's would focus on the threat, others would focus on building ties with the angara and the Exiles, others would simply explore, and so on. there is thus more RP'able freedom to the Pathfinder and their role than anything in the trilogy with Shepard's Spectre)

As for the combat I agree. At first I was weirded out by the absence of the pause and give commands to the squadmates mechanic, but now I feel like it'd be pretty clunky going back to the old games (I've been playing the original trilogy pretty much non-stop since I first played ME1, but I haven't gone back to any of them since getting Andromeda).
Frankly I'd much prefer XCOM style TB combat in Mass Effect, but that's not gonna happen anytime soon ever...

However, in terms of overall design cohesion and mechanics ME:A's combat is probably the best in the series. If/when they do a sequel I hope they double down on the verticality of it all; I'd like to see more hang time with the jumppacks, some powers having unique or alt behaviours from the air, and so on, as well as more levels specifically designed with verticality in mind (e.g. more of Liam's loyalty mission inside the kett ship, with its shifting orientations and descents/ascents).
 

AD-Stu

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Yeah just to be clear, I like the premise of ME:A a lot and the way it plays I think suits quite well a game where you're dumped in the middle of a galaxy you know nothing about and have to work out how you're going to make a home there. "Build a home for an entire race of people" is hardly an open-and-shut goal so it makes sense you'd be running all over the place finding habitable planets, making friends with the locals, dealing with the hostile aliens, etc.

It does have some serious implications for pacing though, particularly when it comes to the "antagonists". Whatever narrative faults ME1 had, it kept Saren/Sovereign front and centre. In ME:A, on the other hand, the Archon and kett were basically absent for about 40 hours straight in my first playthrough: from the return to Aya, then Kadara, then Elaaden - and it would've been even longer if I hadn't done Havarl before Voeld.

I guess mileage varies on the enemies from ME2/3 but I thought the Collectors and Reapers were pretty interesting and varied, with the added bonus of nightmare-fuel origins too. The way a lot of those ideas were copy-pasted for the kett takes a bit away from them I think. In fact the way ME:A wholesale reuses major plot devices and concepts from the previous games is my biggest complaint with it: mysterious but plot-central tech left behind by an unknown ancient race of aliens, and antagonists who do nightmarish things to your own people and turn them against you.
 

Darth Rosenberg

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AD-Stu said:
It does have some serious implications for pacing though, particularly when it comes to the "antagonists".
Isn't it just fair to say it - like DA:I - had an intentionally different focus? Does a story like ME:A's really need a prominent antagonist with regular scenes?

Whatever narrative faults ME1 had, it kept Saren/Sovereign front and centre.
Sure, because the whole linear narrative was all about the chase for him. ME:A tells a different story (or, rather, a set of stories), so I feel its balance of narrative threads was spot on, particularly because---

In ME:A, on the other hand, the Archon and kett were basically absent for about 40 hours straight in my first playthrough: from the return to Aya, then Kadara, then Elaaden - and it would've been even longer if I hadn't done Havarl before Voeld.
---the player essentially determines the pacing. You do 'lose' or will fail a few tasks on the Nexus itself if you barrel ahead with the main story at the expense of everything else, but it's incredibly forgiving of that decision.

The player is empowered to pace the game as they wish, or as their [soft/lite] RP sees fit (e.g. it making sense for some Ryder's to be all about the Archon/Meridian, others about exploration, others for diplomatic ties, settlements etc) - which is a virtue none of the other ME's have had, certainly not to this extent.

And sure, it's possible for the Archon to be absent from much of the game, but it's more or less impossible for the presence of the kett to be minimised - only on Kadara are they not a near constant threat.

In fact the way ME:A wholesale reuses major plot devices and concepts from the previous games is my biggest complaint with it: mysterious but plot-central tech left behind by an unknown ancient race of aliens, and antagonists who do nightmarish things to your own people and turn them against you.
I can see how some might be bothered by that, but I wasn't. Well, I did roll my eyes a bit and think 'we're doing this again?' at some of the angara/Remnant/kett reveals, but the Collectors, aka the ex-Protheans, have no culture, no social structure, and so in ME:A the writers are at least doing something more nuanced, with far wider ranging consequences.

As for the Remnant? Yeah, I do think that's a fairly tired sci-fi convention, and so far ME:A's lore and story (as well as a lot of its visual design) seems to be uncomfortably similar to Halo 4. I honestly had to check myself from using the words Forerunners and Prometheans when I first started the game. ME:A even ends with its own 'Halo' in Meridian (which is awesome, and I hope it's a major setting of the next ME - my biggest disappointment in the game was that you can't set foot on the damn world after the credits rolled... that was too much of a tease).

Still, sci-fi and fantasy are often just jumbles of tropes; what really matters is what you do with them - and I feel the Remnant still feel satisfyingly unknown and unknowable, and there are still lots of questions unanswered. Ditto with the kett. If the next entry dumps a lot of crappy lore, then fair enough, it'll be a weakness of the new [potential] series. So far I'm intrigued enough to give them a pass.
 

AD-Stu

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Darth Rosenberg said:
And sure, it's possible for the Archon to be absent from much of the game, but it's more or less impossible for the presence of the kett to be minimised - only on Kadara are they not a near constant threat.
They're also basically absent on Havarl, and Elaaden... and H-047c if I remember correctly (haven't done that one on the second playthrough yet - and acknowledge it's a smaller world than the others).

That's four of the seven major worlds (ie: well over half the game) where they're basically a non-factor.
 

SmugFrog

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Sep 4, 2008
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Darth Rosenberg said:
Frankly I'd much prefer XCOM style TB combat in Mass Effect, but that's not gonna happen anytime soon ever...
That's a sad thing about these AAA devs and their IPs. When their worlds are so well crafted and thought out like the DA or ME universe, there should be room for other genres within that. I would love to see a XCOM style ME game that doesn't even touch the stories of the other games - just some mercenaries or soldiers that you're controlling through battles with a whole other story going on. Or maybe it could even be set in the sidelines of things that happened. The potential really is limitless - but it's squandered away based on what the owner's idea is of what will make money. Some people would no doubt see a collection of other games (RTS, etc) in those story universe as the developer being a sell out, trying to make money. Honestly if it's done correctly and it's fun it could appeal to those other gamers - and it doesn't have to be done in a way that requires playing the other games to understand the universe.
 

Danbo Jambo

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AD-Stu said:
Danbo Jambo said:
I think ME:A is an example though of how they've taken an RPG formula, and tried to make it work in a more open-world-esq style, just to tick various boxes, and it's not worked.

ME was at it's best as an RPG, yet for some reason they've decided to change that several times and it's never made for anywhere near as good experience as the earlier ME games.
When you say "earlier ME games" though, what do you mean? There's only been four of them, so it's gotta be either 1 or 2, right?

2 was the game that moved furthest away from the RPG style (at least in a gameplay sense) and focused on being a pure cover-based shooter. If that was ME at its best, and I know a lot of people think it was (I don't necessarily agree), it was also ME at its least-RPG state.

1 was probably the series in its most-RPG state, but are we forgetting that it was full of "open" worlds too? They just weren't very interesting open worlds. In a lot of ways I see Andromeda as doing what ME1 set out to do, only better. There are, of course, also things it did worse :p
Yeah 1&2, 1 way more-so.

1 was way more confined & interesting than Andromeda IMO. You can get away with a few planets here & there to explore as side-quests, where as Andromeda drowns you with that same repetitive shizzle unfortunately.

Let's not forget context too. ME1 is now 10 years old. At the time it was pushing things forward, whereas Andromeda really should have evovled in that respect now. It's kind of like playing Yier Kung Fu in '85, then allowing games in '95 to get away with the same setup. Andromeda should have evolved to ME1 like Street Fighter 2 had evolved from Yier Kung Fu.