Animals that can become sapient and develop civilization?

[aozgolo]

So assuming that we're out of the picture (humans) since we tend to kind of wipe out anything that poses a threat to us (which would include any animal attempting our level of intelligent manipulation) what animal do you see as potentially being able to evolve into the next sapient civilization on par with our own in terms of at least tribal level technology?

Great apes have the extensive ability to manipulate tools and the intelligence for problem solving, this coupled with what was most likely a loss of habitat in our predecessor species pushed us to gain rapid adaptability, which in turn allowed us to spread across the globe, developing small family units which evolving into tribal units and as inventions like agriculture came about the nomadic lifestyle died down and we developed city states and it just goes up and up from there.

So what other animal is capable of this? I know people love to talk about the intelligence of Dolphins but they lack any kind of true tool manipulation to be able to develop civilization.

I personally think Raccoons and other Procyonidae (The family Raccoons belong to) are the most likely. They already exhibit extensive problem solving skills, a social hierarchy structure, adaptability to multiple environments including urban ones, and a very tactile sense of tool manipulation, their only real disadvantage is lacking a true opposable digit, which may or may not be necessary.

Anyway, that's my theory, any other ideas you guys have for animals capable of developing civilization outside of great apes?

 

[shootthebandit]

You could argue that the societies created by bees and ants are actually more advanced than humans. There is evidence of a heirarchy, they obviously communicate effectively and operate as a unit

Bees and ants have a far larger impact on the earth than we do as human beings. If humans were wiped out the world would carry on (infact it would probably be better) where as without bees or ants the world would probably fail to exist

 

[Heronblade]

Any and all creatures may have that capability. Some just have fewer evolutionary hurdles to jump through.

In any event, apes and other primates are the obvious choice. Raccoons are also in an excellent position.

Elephants and crows are in the second group I would consider. Both have high logic skills, but while they can use tools, said use is extremely crude.

Pigs, killer whales, and dolphins have a high enough level of intelligence to be serious contenders, but as mentioned lack the physical means required to make the most of it. Many canids (dogs, wolves, foxes, coyotes, etc.) and felidae (cats, both great and small) are in a similar position, but are not quite as strong in the reasoning department

You could argue that the societies created by bees and ants are actually more advanced than humans. There is evidence of a heirarchy, they obviously communicate effectively and operate as a unit

Bees and ants have a far larger impact on the earth than we do as human beings. If humans were wiped out the world would carry on (infact it would probably be better) where as without bees or ants the world would probably fail to exist

You could argue that, but you would be incorrect. The interactions of hive insects no more represent a society than the interactions between the organs in your body do, or for that matter various components of your computer. Prescripted behavior doth not a civilization make. They are indeed fascinating, in a very real sense, a colony is a single organism with multiple distinct nodes, but this nature lies at the heart of the problem with calling them a society.

Also, there are two things I would disagree with concerning your second statement. First of all, while such an event would precipitate a large round of mass extinction among the species that directly and indirectly depend on them, the world would not notice insects disappearing any more than it would notice our departure, please don't exaggerate the scope of disasters.

Secondly, the fact that our presence is not required for the existence of other creatures, (with the exception of all those ugly small things pretending to be real dogs) is rather irrelevant to the discussion. The beauty of civilization lies in terms of the possibility of breaking free of the normal cycles of the biosphere, not in being just another building block for it.

 

[aozgolo]

Any and all creatures may have that capability. Some just have fewer evolutionary hurdles to jump through.

In any event, apes and other primates are the obvious choice. Raccoons are also in an excellent position.

Elephants and crows are in the second group I would consider. Both have high logic skills, but while they can use tools, said use is extremely crude.

Pigs, killer whales, and dolphins have a high enough level of intelligence to be serious contenders, but as mentioned lack the physical means required to make the most of it. Many canids (dogs, wolves, foxes, coyotes, etc.) and felidae (cats, both great and small) are in a similar position, but are not quite as strong in the reasoning department

You could argue that the societies created by bees and ants are actually more advanced than humans. There is evidence of a heirarchy, they obviously communicate effectively and operate as a unit

Bees and ants have a far larger impact on the earth than we do as human beings. If humans were wiped out the world would carry on (infact it would probably be better) where as without bees or ants the world would probably fail to exist

You could argue that, but you would be incorrect. The interactions of hive insects no more represent a society than the interactions between the organs in your body do, or for that matter various components of your computer. Prescripted behavior doth not a civilization make. They are indeed fascinating, in a very real sense, a colony is a single organism with multiple independent nodes, but this nature lies at the heart of the problem with calling them a society.

Also, there are two things I would disagree with concerning your second statement. First of all, while such an event would precipitate a large round of mass extinction among the species that directly and indirectly depend on them, the world would not notice insects disappearing any more than it would notice our departure, please don't exaggerate the scope of disasters.

Secondly, the fact that our presence is not required for the existence of other creatures, (with the exception of all those ugly small things pretending to be real dogs) is rather irrelevant to the discussion. The beauty of civilization lies in terms of the possibility of breaking free of the normal cycles of the biosphere, not in being just another building block for it.

*applaud*

very well put, I honestly didn't consider crows or elephants, though I guess I was thinking of which species likely to reach that point first before any others. We all technically came from the same vat of churning liquid stardust so technically yes any animal could conceivably get there, I was more preoccupied with wondering which animal outside the great apes was the closest.

 

[Tuxedoman]

I would still say Dolphins.

I mean, they have a language, they have different dialects depending where abouts in the world they are, they give eachother names, they give HUMANS names who frequently visit and research them (Like how we name pets), they use basic tools (Getting a sea sponge on their nose so they dont graze themselves when rummaging the ocean floor).

I would go so far as to say they already ARE sentient, they just don't have an easy way to build things.

Would they make a super society that would challenge us? No. I doubt that would ever happen. But they certainly do have social structure, language, significant intelligence and the ability to use tools. We just can't speak Dolphin.

 

[aozgolo]

I would still say Dolphins.

I mean, they have a language, they have different dialects depending where abouts in the world they are, they give eachother names, they give HUMANS names who frequently visit and research them (Like how we name pets), they use basic tools (Getting a sea sponge on their nose so they dont graze themselves when rummaging the ocean floor).

I would go so far as to say they already ARE sentient, they just don't have an easy way to build things.

Would they make a super society that would challenge us? No. I doubt that would ever happen. But they certainly do have social structure, language, significant intelligence and the ability to use tools. We just can't speak Dolphin.

I don't think anyone will argue a Dolphins intelligence and sapience but I doubt they are capable of construction without some serious evolution and in the oceans current state there's not really any need for them to evolve, though it's hard to say as they really haven't been around all that long (11 Million Years I think?).

 

[McMullen]

I think there's still a decent chance that we might get around to it some day.

...Oh, you mean besides the great apes.

Well, monitor lizards and dogs are fairly intelligent, certain birds too. There are marsupials with opposable thumbs though, so I'd probably bet on them.

 

[ShipofFools]

Rats are surprisingly intelligent, with dexterous little hands and a social structure. They breed fast, have spread around the world in great numbers and can survive most disasters.

So when humanity dies out, and all continents and islands become isolated from each other again, it might be that a new, intelligent species of rat emerges somewhere on the world, and the adventure starts again.

I do wonder what rat archaeologists will make of our ruins.

And maybe humans aren't the first animals that have at least achieved semi-intelligence, maybe civilizations have come and go before, but just left nothing behind for us to remember them by.
I mean, if there was a species of dinosaur that lived in huts, planted crops and had mastered fire, there would be no way for us to ever know, right? It's too long ago for any traces to remain.

 

[Kolby Jack]

You could argue that the societies created by bees and ants are actually more advanced than humans. There is evidence of a heirarchy, they obviously communicate effectively and operate as a unit

Bees and ants have a far larger impact on the earth than we do as human beings. If humans were wiped out the world would carry on (infact it would probably be better) where as without bees or ants the world would probably fail to exist

DO BEES DREAM?! Do they look to the stars and wonder "Who am I? Why am I here?" Does the bee, when it stings another creature, ever stop to think "How must it feel to be that creature, stung by me OOP I'M DEAD." NAY, SIR. I submit that it takes MORE than an efficient society and the meeting of basic needs to be considered "advanced." IT TAKES HOPE! AND FOLLY! AND PERSEVERANCE! But above all else, IT. TAKES. PASSION!!!

Phew... think I didn't get enough sleep last night. Probably should go to bed.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Hmmm...purely aquatic creatures aren't going to be able to create fire, which is the building block of more or less all human creation. However, a fireless civilisation probably isn't impossible, just very strange to our eyes...for that matter, an underwater one.

Similarly, anything without manipulative organs isn't going to be able to create and use tools.

 

[Yopaz]

I would still say Dolphins.

I mean, they have a language, they have different dialects depending where abouts in the world they are, they give eachother names, they give HUMANS names who frequently visit and research them (Like how we name pets), they use basic tools (Getting a sea sponge on their nose so they dont graze themselves when rummaging the ocean floor).

I would go so far as to say they already ARE sentient, they just don't have an easy way to build things.

Would they make a super society that would challenge us? No. I doubt that would ever happen. But they certainly do have social structure, language, significant intelligence and the ability to use tools. We just can't speak Dolphin.

Language isn't really a good indicator. Whales, cats, dogs, humanoid apes, bees, birds and elephants also have some variation of languages with varying complexity. Some of these animals also use tools and birds are actually more intelligent than we give them credit for.

OT: Humans have evolved from single celled organisms. Random chance and the timing of certain events have been crucial in order for us to come out on top(ish) and I would be stupid to predict which species is more likely to evolve in a similar fashion. However by definition I doubt any of the living species now will ever take our place. An event that wipes out humanity would also wipe out a lot of the big species we have now which kinda rules out the elephant which is one of the contenders.

If I have to make an educated guess I would suggest rats or something similar if the next sapient species were land based or possibly one of our aquatic mammals such as the dolphin.

 

[wulfy42]

I am not a fan of them, but......sigh.....spiders probably would be the most likely to develop more complex tools and take our place eventually. They already use tools in complex ways, so they would only really need to develop a method of communication, a way to store information and build on it from generation to generation...and they would pretty much be set.


I bet if someone really wanted to bread super spiders....you could do it......please don't.

 

[Tyelcapilu]

I am not a fan of them, but......sigh.....spiders probably would be the most likely to develop more complex tools and take our place eventually. They already use tools in complex ways, so they would only really need to develop a method of communication, a way to store information and build on it from generation to generation...and they would pretty much be set.


I bet if someone really wanted to bread super spiders....you could do it......please don't.

I am going to do it.
I will breed the world's largest spider, and her name will be Bubbles.

On topic--if anything, probably birds or octopuses.
Crows in particular have been shown to mess with their environment and commit complex solutions to complex problems.
Octopuses opened a jar.
They're closer to other intelligent species in terms of body structure to being able to effectively manipulate their environment than elephants, whales, or dolphins.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I am not a fan of them, but......sigh.....spiders probably would be the most likely to develop more complex tools and take our place eventually. They already use tools in complex ways, so they would only really need to develop a method of communication, a way to store information and build on it from generation to generation...and they would pretty much be set.


I bet if someone really wanted to bread super spiders....you could do it......please don't.

I am going to do it.
I will breed the world's largest spider, and her name will be Bubbles.

Not hard to breed bigger spiders, you just have to keep them for a few generations in a high oxygen environment.

Of course, then you need to acclimatise them to normal oxygen levels before releasing them.

 

[wulfy42]

I am not a fan of them, but......sigh.....spiders probably would be the most likely to develop more complex tools and take our place eventually. They already use tools in complex ways, so they would only really need to develop a method of communication, a way to store information and build on it from generation to generation...and they would pretty much be set.


I bet if someone really wanted to bread super spiders....you could do it......please don't.

I am going to do it.
I will breed the world's largest spider, and her name will be Bubbles.

Not hard to breed bigger spiders, you just have to keep them for a few generations in a high oxygen environment.

Of course, then you need to acclimatise them to normal oxygen levels before releasing them.

*Shudders*

 

[LegendaryVKickr]

"Crab people, crab people...taste like crab...talk like people."

But seriously, probably dolphins. They seem fairly smart. As long as they stay in the water, I'm sure we could co-exist.

 

[SillyBear]

None. No animal that presently exists on Earth is capable.

And I would be surprised, if humans were to just completely disappear, if in millions of years we saw another intelligent life form evolve on Earth. Intelligent life is really, really rare on Earth. Think about the billions upon billions of species that have existed and how many of them had the level of self awareness as we do? None. Only us.

We have to remember that evolution does not have a will or an end goal. It's not like dolphins or gorillas are just biding their time waiting until they can turn into something like us. In evolution to win is to survive. It's that simple. That slug outside? That worm? They're playing the game just as well as we are.

 

[ShipofFools]

None. No animal that presently exists on Earth is capable.

Not presently, no. But there is a lot of time to change things around a bit.

And I would be surprised, if humans were to just completely disappear, if in millions of years we saw another intelligent life form evolve on Earth. Intelligent life is really, really rare on Earth. Think about the billions upon billions of species that have existed and how many of them had the level of self awareness as we do? None. Only us.

How do you know that?

We have to remember that evolution does not have a will or an end goal. It's not like dolphins or gorillas are just biding their time waiting until they can turn into something like us. In evolution to win is to survive. It's that simple. That slug outside? That worm? They're playing the game just as well as we are.

Things are rarely singular in evolution, though. If something happened once, it may happen again.

 

[FalloutJack]

The dolphins are a different orientation of intelligence. Their world and the way they perceive it is just different, and so we have no normal way to measure their sophistication, though a lack of visible development would indicate they lead very simple lives regardless. It is their reactions to things - like the mirror test - which show that they are different from animals in perception.

Still, I should like to do a study on the cunning of the fox, see if any of that ancient folklore belies something we're not seeing.