Animals that can become sapient and develop civilization?

[Kolby Jack]

You could argue that the societies created by bees and ants are actually more advanced than humans. There is evidence of a heirarchy, they obviously communicate effectively and operate as a unit

Bees and ants have a far larger impact on the earth than we do as human beings. If humans were wiped out the world would carry on (infact it would probably be better) where as without bees or ants the world would probably fail to exist

DO BEES DREAM?! Do they look to the stars and wonder "Who am I? Why am I here?" Does the bee, when it stings another creature, ever stop to think "How must it feel to be that creature, stung by me OOP I'M DEAD." NAY, SIR. I submit that it takes MORE than an efficient society and the meeting of basic needs to be considered "advanced." IT TAKES HOPE! AND FOLLY! AND PERSEVERANCE! But above all else, IT. TAKES. PASSION!!!

Phew... think I didn't get enough sleep last night. Probably should go to bed.

According to steven fry there are over 200 species of animal which exhibit homosexual behaviour yet only one that exhibits homophobic behaviour

Will a bee ever use its sting to deliberatley cause harm to another creature simply for pleasure? I think youll find that it is only humans that exhibit that sort of behaviour (studies have shown this behaviour in a few cases amongst primates)

So how is that advanced?

I recommend you watch a movie called "instinct" with antony hopkins. He plays an anthropologist studying gorillas and he gets lost and ends up living alongside the gorillas. He kills some poachers and gets arrested. He describes modern man as "takers" and how prehistoric man lived happily amongst the animals and only hunted what they needed

Why do you think we are described as "consumers" in the news. Because we just consume things until they run out then move onto something else. Just because we are aware of our actions it doesnt make us any more advanved than any other creature.

Can't argue with that "logic."

 

[Signa]

I feel like the OP and I saw the same image on Failblog recently...

 

[Kanova]

In all honesty, I don't think any animal on earth could match a civilization that we have.

 

[Heronblade]

In all honesty, I don't think any animal on earth could match a civilization that we have.

If you mean as they are now, of course not. They don't have the physical means to pull it off.

If otherwise, why not? They came from the exact same background we did, and have the same potential to change as we did.

Just because we happened to be the very first Earth creature to develop an advanced civilization does not mean that another could not match or exceed our efforts if given the opportunity.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I've wondered what would the world be like if the dinosaurs didn't go extinct. I could imagine a smaller dinosaur that has prehensile hands developing actual intelligence over a vast time period.

The dinosaurs went extinct about 65 million years ago. Humans have only been on Earth for around 200,000 years and look at what we've accomplished in that very short time span. Pretend that dinosaurs didn't go extinct and then one dinosaur species achieved human intelligence 20 million years ago. By now they'd probably be flying in space and mastered faster than light travel.

Assuming FTL travel is possible, yeah. Also, there's no reason to assume that dinosaurs would have evolved intelligence given another 45 million years, they've been around for quite some time in the past without that happening.

However, you bring up an important point. There's no particular reason why intelligence had to have been evolved now (or rather, relatively very recently). If humans ever discover life on other worlds, it'd probably be a billion years "distant" from ourselves (that is, sit around and wait a billion years for intelligent life, or intelligence evolved a billion years ago, not that evolution follows a linear pattern that can be predicted in advance).

 

[Maxtro]

I've wondered what would the world be like if the dinosaurs didn't go extinct. I could imagine a smaller dinosaur that has prehensile hands developing actual intelligence over a vast time period.

The dinosaurs went extinct about 65 million years ago. Humans have only been on Earth for around 200,000 years and look at what we've accomplished in that very short time span. Pretend that dinosaurs didn't go extinct and then one dinosaur species achieved human intelligence 20 million years ago. By now they'd probably be flying in space and mastered faster than light travel.

Assuming FTL travel is possible, yeah. Also, there's no reason to assume that dinosaurs would have evolved intelligence given another 45 million years, they've been around for quite some time in the past without that happening.

However, you bring up an important point. There's no particular reason why intelligence had to have been evolved now (or rather, relatively very recently). If humans ever discover life on other worlds, it'd probably be a billion years "distant" from ourselves (that is, sit around and wait a billion years for intelligent life, or intelligence evolved a billion years ago, not that evolution follows a linear pattern that can be predicted in advance).

That's one thing I've thought of before.

Due to the extinction level events that happened on Earth, it's possible for another planet that had life develop around the same time as Earth, that didn't have those events, to have technology that is millions of years more advanced than us.

I'm going off-topic for the thread so I'll stop here.

 

[Montezuma's Lawyer]

I would still say Dolphins.

I mean, they have a language, they have different dialects depending where abouts in the world they are, they give eachother names, they give HUMANS names who frequently visit and research them (Like how we name pets), they use basic tools (Getting a sea sponge on their nose so they dont graze themselves when rummaging the ocean floor).

I would go so far as to say they already ARE sentient, they just don't have an easy way to build things.

Would they make a super society that would challenge us? No. I doubt that would ever happen. But they certainly do have social structure, language, significant intelligence and the ability to use tools. We just can't speak Dolphin.

I don't think anyone will argue a Dolphins intelligence and sapience but I doubt they are capable of construction without some serious evolution and in the oceans current state there's not really any need for them to evolve, though it's hard to say as they really haven't been around all that long (11 Million Years I think?).

They also commit murder and rape.

We're so alike.

 

[DeimosMasque]

I would still say Dolphins.

I mean, they have a language, they have different dialects depending where abouts in the world they are, they give eachother names, they give HUMANS names who frequently visit and research them (Like how we name pets), they use basic tools (Getting a sea sponge on their nose so they dont graze themselves when rummaging the ocean floor).

I would go so far as to say they already ARE sentient, they just don't have an easy way to build things.

Would they make a super society that would challenge us? No. I doubt that would ever happen. But they certainly do have social structure, language, significant intelligence and the ability to use tools. We just can't speak Dolphin.

I don't think anyone will argue a Dolphins intelligence and sapience but I doubt they are capable of construction without some serious evolution and in the oceans current state there's not really any need for them to evolve, though it's hard to say as they really haven't been around all that long (11 Million Years I think?).

They also commit murder and rape.

We're so alike.

And racism and genocide. Can't forget that either.

Though I would actually argue that dolphins are NOT sentient. Yes they have a very large brain and show rudimentary intelligence, but at the same time alot of their brain cells are not active and instead are used to keep it warm in the cold waters.

 

[LightningFast]

You could argue that the societies created by bees and ants are actually more advanced than humans. There is evidence of a heirarchy, they obviously communicate effectively and operate as a unit

Bees and ants have a far larger impact on the earth than we do as human beings. If humans were wiped out the world would carry on (infact it would probably be better) where as without bees or ants the world would probably fail to exist

DO BEES DREAM?! Do they look to the stars and wonder "Who am I? Why am I here?" Does the bee, when it stings another creature, ever stop to think "How must it feel to be that creature, stung by me OOP I'M DEAD." NAY, SIR. I submit that it takes MORE than an efficient society and the meeting of basic needs to be considered "advanced." IT TAKES HOPE! AND FOLLY! AND PERSEVERANCE! But above all else, IT. TAKES. PASSION!!!

Phew... think I didn't get enough sleep last night. Probably should go to bed.

Please run for president.

OT: Most primates are at least somewhat capable of social structure and thought that we consider human, social structure being key here. Some mate for life, they live in larger groups, are capable of using thumbs and tools, and they even go to "war", to an extent. Though somewhat less dexterous than us, and certainly lacking in sentience, they could get there.

I like to think that if alien sentient life exists (which is possible, considering the events that led to life on Earth quite literally had all the time in the world to repeat infinitely until it built enough momentum) would more or less have the same basic characteristics as us, since they'd need to be capable of fine manipulation to build what we consider to be civilization. A specific set of circumstances need to be met for life to begin, and it's possible those same circumstances would set evolution on a similar course.

 

[Heronblade]

And racism and genocide. Can't forget that either.

Though I would actually argue that dolphins are NOT sentient. Yes they have a very large brain and show rudimentary intelligence, but at the same time alot of their brain cells are not active and instead are used to keep it warm in the cold waters.

Two things

First off, sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, or to experience subjectivity. Pretty much all animals right on down to the lowly slugs are sentient to some degree. I realize that the term often gets confused with sapience on a regular basis in most conversation and a great deal of science fiction, but lets try to keep it straight here. Of course, sapience is very poorly defined, so it isn't exactly easy to use either.

Secondly, not only have dolphins displayed more than just rudimentary intelligence, I've found nothing that supports this claim of using inactive brain cells to keep warm.

Frankly, I'm more than a little skeptical, that would be like taking parts of a motherboard and using it as insulation. Not only is it an incredible waste of valuable material, it is really ineffective, even as an emergency measure.

 

[DeimosMasque]

Two things

First off, sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, or to experience subjectivity. Pretty much all animals right on down to the lowly slugs are sentient to some degree. I realize that the term often gets confused with sapience on a regular basis in most conversation and a great deal of science fiction, but lets try to keep it straight here. Of course, sapience is very poorly defined, so it isn't exactly easy to use either.

Secondly, not only have dolphins displayed more than just rudimentary intelligence, I've found nothing that supports this claim of using inactive brain cells to keep warm.

Frankly, I'm more than a little skeptical, that would be like taking parts of a motherboard and using it as insulation. Not only is it an incredible waste of valuable material, it is really ineffective, even as an emergency measure.

Your right I did mix up sapient and sentient. It's an easy thing to do, especially if you adore sci-fi which tends to deal more with sentience than sapience. It makes you think that sentient is the more rare thing.

Secondly: While the dolphin brain is around the same size as a human brain there are two things to consider about it: The average dolphin is much bigger than the average human and it is adapted to live in deep waters of the ocean, which is very cold.

As a result the dolphin brain is full of glial cells. Neural cells that give the brain nutrients and oxygen and to insulate the brain. In comparison they also have less neurons which is what allows for thought processes and what not. I'm not claiming that they are not rather smart, possibly smarter than most aquatic mammals and such. But they aren't the super-geniuses that we thought they were in the 80s and 90s.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

I'd put my money on rats. They're one of the few non-primate species to show signs of metacognition- the ability to judge what you do or don't know, or what you can and can't do.

 

[Heronblade]

Two things

First off, sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, or to experience subjectivity. Pretty much all animals right on down to the lowly slugs are sentient to some degree. I realize that the term often gets confused with sapience on a regular basis in most conversation and a great deal of science fiction, but lets try to keep it straight here. Of course, sapience is very poorly defined, so it isn't exactly easy to use either.

Secondly, not only have dolphins displayed more than just rudimentary intelligence, I've found nothing that supports this claim of using inactive brain cells to keep warm.

Frankly, I'm more than a little skeptical, that would be like taking parts of a motherboard and using it as insulation. Not only is it an incredible waste of valuable material, it is really ineffective, even as an emergency measure.

Your right I did mix up sapient and sentient. It's an easy thing to do, especially if you adore sci-fi which tends to deal more with sentience than sapience. It makes you think that sentient is the more rare thing.

Secondly: While the dolphin brain is around the same size as a human brain there are two things to consider about it: The average dolphin is much bigger than the average human and it is adapted to live in deep waters of the ocean, which is very cold.

As a result the dolphin brain is full of glial cells. Neural cells that give the brain nutrients and oxygen and to insulate the brain. In comparison they also have less neurons which is what allows for thought processes and what not. I'm not claiming that they are not rather smart, possibly smarter than most aquatic mammals and such. But they aren't the super-geniuses that we thought they were in the 80s and 90s.

Ah, glial cells, that old preconception strikes again.

90% of our own brains are composed of glial cells, and said cells take a significantly greater part in our thought processes than we were originally aware of. In fact, one particular type of glial cell is argued to be largely responsible for abstract thinking.

 

[Clowndoe]

I think there have been enough guesses here that I can don't have to add yet another. One thing I'd like to point out is that I think as far as reaching our stage of civilization again, assuming we go extinct or something, the odds are pretty much null.

I thinking about metalworking, which we could only have discovered because copper and iron used to exist in seams on the earth's surface and is pretty much all gone now. What's left is deep beneath the earth, where you could only find it if you knew what you were looking for. Them elephants better get really good at recycling if they ever hope to get out of the Stone Age.

 

[RJ 17]

You could argue that the societies created by bees and ants are actually more advanced than humans. There is evidence of a heirarchy, they obviously communicate effectively and operate as a unit

Bees and ants have a far larger impact on the earth than we do as human beings. If humans were wiped out the world would carry on (infact it would probably be better) where as without bees or ants the world would probably fail to exist

Well I didn't have to look far before my suggestion got ninja'd.

Yeah, no sense asking "which creature will form the next civilization" when we've already got creatures forming civilizations right along with us.

Oh, and lets not forget that there's even some species of spiders in South America that live in colonies too, building massive web-cities in the treetops. That'd be fun...giant sapient spider-people. Have fun sleeping tonight. :3

 

[Benni88]

Cephalopoda, notably cuttlefish. Cold blooded, manipulatory appendages, high level of communication. They're my bet .

 

[Heronblade]

I think there have been enough guesses here that I can don't have to add yet another. One thing I'd like to point out is that I think as far as reaching our stage of civilization again, assuming we go extinct or something, the odds are pretty much null.

I thinking about metalworking, which we could only have discovered because copper and iron used to exist in seams on the earth's surface and is pretty much all gone now. What's left is deep beneath the earth, where you could only find it if you knew what you were looking for. Them elephants better get really good at recycling if they ever hope to get out of the Stone Age.

Uh, copper may be relatively tough to find these days, but iron is not. In spite of the millions of tons of the stuff we have removed and used, iron is still the fourth most common element in the Earth's crust, and the most common element in the Earth overall. Also, we'd actually be leaving behind more metal on the surface than there was for us to find. Unless of course you think everything we ever built will simply disappear, leaving nothing behind whatsoever.

Frankly, the relative lack of easy energy sources is the greater hurdle for any newly sapient species to jump. if there is no easy access to oil and/or coal, they just might be screwed. Wood fires just don't cut it for processing advanced metals, which are required for a great deal of our achievements, including drilling for oil, not to mention harnessing the more advanced energy sources we've come up with.

Oil and coal are both renewable resources, but it will take a very very long time for replenished reserves to get back to levels that are easy to access from the surface without specialized equipment.

 

[Grach]

Deep-sea anglerfish. Just to see what a society with parasitic males would be like.

Speaking seriously, this is a difficult question, since imagining a civilization that doesn't work exactly like ours is kind of hard. Especially since we don't have a very solid definition of the concepts of consciense and mind.

Whatever. My money is on crows or at least a corvid. Because a civilization like that would be so cute <3.

 

[Someone Depressing]

Sharks.

They basically already have a society (or at least some species, who have been found to develop personalities, and societies).

Besides, sharks have never evolved, or only very insignificantly. Sharks are effectively the "ideal" animal. They eat, hunt, breed, eat, hunt, breed..

it'd be interesting if all sharks had a society or a hierarchy of some sort. Like ants.

 

[Heronblade]

Sharks.

They basically already have a society (or at least some species, who have been found to develop personalities, and societies).

Besides, sharks have never evolved, or only very insignificantly. Sharks are effectively the "ideal" animal. They eat, hunt, breed, eat, hunt, breed..

it'd be interesting if all sharks had a society or a hierarchy of some sort. Like ants.

Their status as an "ideal" apex predator actually makes them somewhat ineligible for this consideration. They haven't evolved in any significant manner because they have not needed to, and they are unlikely to ever need to. Likewise, they don't have a need to develop socially, nor to develop in terms of adaptive intelligence, and so they probably never will do either.

Oh sure, they'll likely be enjoying themselves long after we're gone, but they'll still just be big toothy fish.

There are not any creatures that cannot become sapient given the right conditions, but the ideal candidate would be one that uses intellect and/or social skills to deal with their problems, and whose niche can be threatened in a manner that causes them to rely on those tendencies more and more.