Anime That Makes You THINK?

[bastardofmelbourne]

Okay...I think I have to ask. How the hell can you call Death Note deep? I mean okay, it's a very exciting ride and has some very strong artistry at times but it never really explores it's theme, discusses it's moral implications or, hell, has any kind of character development. I can see why it's interesting to explore the ways of the mindgames but I wouldn't exactly call that "deep". Oh and a disclaimer: I'm not out to troll, I'm really curious.

This is really my opinion of the series. It's suspenseful, well-written and it has a very complicated and twisty plot, but there's zero character development and no discussion of the moral implications of what the main characters are doing. Light Yagami goes from honour student to omnicidal maniac in the first episode, and stays there for the rest of the series. He never progesses beyond that point, and we're never given a reason to sympathise or agree with him.

I'm probably not one to talk, though, considering I suggested Code Geass earlier. But at least the characters in Code Geass change.

 

[Pedro Menna Barreto]

I would go with C: Money of Soul and Possibility Control [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_(anime)]

Spoiler

World economic crisis in a Yu-Gi-Oh! way

 

[Chromatic Aberration]

I'm probably not one to talk, though, considering I suggested Code Geass earlier. But at least the characters in Code Geass change.

Considering I suggested Code Geass already much earlier [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.399878.16416464] in this thread for exactly the same reason you outlined in your previous post...don't worry about it too much

In fact, I always personally argue that Code Geass actually is what Death Note should have been because it actually devotes time to explore this core conflict and actually makes it a major plot point coupled with a narrative that is (at least) as exciting and involving (and at least equally ridiculous) as that of Death Note. And if I then count the themes it just barely brushes on and yet somehow thematizes (the whole responsibility of science deal in the nina-arc, the actual conflict between individuals (Suzaku vs. Lelouch, Rakshata vs. Lloyd, Shirley vs. Kallen vs. CC as Lelouch's love interests that drives the whole series and subsequently fucks everything up royally, the whole price of determination-deal that is the gist of the whole tragedy etc.) I feel that Code Geass is actually smarter than it lets on. So, I'm really okay with calling it "deep". Or, at least, "deep enough" in comparison to....err...something like that [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Manga/BoboboboBobobo?from=Main.BoboboboBobobo].

 

[Blank Verse]

Trigun.

The ending was so surreal when I realized Vash adopted Knives' policy of killing the spider. What's more symbolic is Vash abandoning his red coat, which was a representation of Rem and her ethics.

That made me question Vash and his entire journey. Again. After 20+ episodes of pacifist attempts (which were never boring thanks to the creators' creativity).

 

[waj9876]

Huh, I'm surprised no one has mentioned 'The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya.'

It was a pretty big anime back when both seasons aired, and it definitely requires you to think if you want to get some of the deeper interconnected stuff. Though the light novels are the best for that, as they go way farther than the anime ever did. As to what it's about...well, the basic summary is that a "normal guy" has found himself the interest of a reality warper/possible God who doesn't know her own power. Also, it goes to great lengths to never reveal the arguable main character's name. They just call him by a nickname.

There's one theory about the series that I absolutely love and it honestly seems the light novels are heading in that direction.

Warning, serious spoilers for the series here.

Spoiler

Namely that it is not Haruhi who is "God." But Kyon, our ever melancholic protagonist whom we do not even know the name of. As apparently Haruhi's power never actually manifested until she met Kyon for the first time, three years before the series started.

 

[manic_depressive13]

I can give you a list of animes that made me think "What the fuck an I watching".

Seriously though, I thought Mushishi was a really good anime. There's hardly any violence or intense action scenes but it was interesting and quite thought provoking in a few cases, and looks really pretty.

 

[Orange12345]

Neon Genesis Evangelion.

I discovered it when I was 14 and funnily enough it struck a unique note with me. It makes me ponder my own life and even though I don't have to pilot giant mecha to save the world I find myself relating with Shinji.

The last few episodes of evangelion made me think "what the fuck did I just watch?, what does any of this have to do with giant robots"

 

[Raika]

None, really. Anime is a universally vapid medium. Most anime series make the claim of 'depth' and that's enough for most people to concur, but just because something says it's deep and bludgeons you across the face with "philosophical" themes(The Matrix, The Dark Knight, Evangelion) doesn't mean it's deep. It just means it's pretentious.

 

[Little Woodsman]

"Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it was a simple love story. Other people can read
the back of matchbook and unlock the secrets of the universe."

Bubblegum Crisis/Crash & AD Police Files
An exploration of the themes earlier explored in such works as "The Cyborg", and "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"where does the line between human & machine start to blur? When do the machines become people, and when
do the people become machines?

Outlaw Star
Kind of surprised this one hasn't been mentioned previously, considering how well known it is, and the fact
that there's a character who literally walks around asking "Why am I here? What is my place in the Universe?"
constantly. Now that I think of it, this was also played out in the second series of Digimon.

Also going to throw in with those who have already mentioned Haibane Renmei, Gundam Wing
and Full Metal Alchemist.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

It's easier for me to point out the titles that I disagree with, cause most of the titles suggested are acceptable.

First off, I'm not going to deny that I am heavily bias.

(right off the bat on the OP) I don't consider Stand Alone Complex particularly thought-provoking. In terms of political setting, it's interesting.

Ergo Proxy is just filled with references, there's no thinking outside of using wikipedia to find every thing they tried to shove into it.

Death Note doesn't make you think, it makes you anticipate tactics. The morally grey message was lost after he decided to kill off anyone who opposed him, and the anime leaves out one of the best parts of the original ending (which calls the protagonist out on his bullshit).

As a poster above me said, Code Geass tries much harder at making you think, and yes the second season was completely rushed that is no secret and it's a shame we well never get the series as it was intended.

Fate/zero is about as deep as a game of DnD (mechanics explanations), otherwise it never goes further than one type of moral dilemma (do ends justify the means etc).

 

[Mid Boss]

Sword Art Online has a lot of underlying exploration of people's relationship with the online/virtual world.

 

[BENZOOKA]

I would also like to mention Death Note. The characters plowing their ways through the story offer a delightful stimulation for one to simultaneously contemplate on the possibilities and all of the mind games put into motion.

Okay...I think I have to ask. How the hell can you call Death Note deep? I mean okay, it's a very exciting ride and has some very strong artistry at times but it never really explores it's theme, discusses it's moral implications or, hell, has any kind of character development. I can see why it's interesting to explore the ways of the mindgames but I wouldn't exactly call that "deep". Oh and a disclaimer: I'm not out to troll, I'm really curious.

Exploring its theme, moral implications and the reasons why the characters do what they do, are left for the viewer. I can't see how offering more premasticated views from those aspects would do anything else than crop out material to think about.

I'd see it rather pointless to dwell deeper on the matter of something being 'deep' or not; definition, subjectivity and personal taste play a far too large role. Those, and similar discussions also tend to pick up too much on noncontextual factors.

 

[the doom cannon]

Lain, Evangelion, PSYCHO-PASS, Madoka, Akira, GiTS

If you're not already following PSYCHO-PASS start doing so immediately.

Yes! Psycho pass is really good and explores its themes from the start. Definitely suggest it.

 

[Dr. Cakey]

Death Note
Not a thinking show. It's fantastic, it's my sixth favorite anime, but it's not a thinking show. The morality is black and white, and it has a strong, simple plot.

Death Note is by no means a particularly deep manga (at least not intentionally), but black and white morality? You've got to be fucking kidding me.

The "was Light right?" question is practically a base splitter.

I'd argue a painting is black and white even if the viewer is color-blind, but you've got a point. It might be less important that some sort of moral question exists than that people think it exists.

On the other hand, it could just be me. I tend to find 'deep' works to be pretty rote and trite, and more mainstream stuff to have layers of philosophical and symbolic complexity.

Trigun.

The ending was so surreal when I realized Vash adopted Knives' policy of killing the spider. What's more symbolic is Vash abandoning his red coat, which was a representation of Rem and her ethics.

That made me question Vash and his entire journey. Again. After 20+ episodes of pacifist attempts (which were never boring thanks to the creators' creativity).

I think we watched two different endings, because I'm pretty sure the opposite happened...

 

[Soviet Heavy]

While I did praise Cowboy bebop earlier in this thread, I do have to say that I take recommendations with a grain of salt, since I've seen people promote garbage like Elfen Lied saying that "It makes you THINK". No, because your show has a message does not always mean that message is presented thoughtfully or even effectively. If I can't watch your show without getting turned off by the relentless violence, unlikeable protagonists and endless exposition, you're not making me think in the way you expect me to.

I'm not thinking about the ethical, social or moral implications of the story, I'm left thinking "who the hell greenlit this mess?"

 

[Relish in Chaos]

Another one for Fullmetal Alchemist here. The manga and Brotherhood anime, I mean, not the first anime (a.k.a. the depressingly bleak spin-off that was riddled with poor pacing and time-wasting filler, fucked over the majority of its characters, not least of all Hohenheim, and had a piss-poor ending in a follow-up movie that made no fucking sense whatsoever). I'm currently writing an essay on Mustang and Hawkeye's relationship just because of how much I've found myself invested in it, even though it's not as blatant as so many other relationships in other anime.

Not to mention that FMA probably has one of the most well-rounded character casts in not only anime, but fiction in general. The only characters that I genuinely dislike (discounting the ones that I just find bland or superfluous, like the Elrics' chimera comrades) are Winry and May Chang (because I don't like their character designs, and I find them annoying characters who just get in the way most of the time).

Even though I think author Hiromu Arakawa could've probably stood to explore the philosophical themes of her manga, since she did apparently research a lot about alchemy as well as drawing from her own life experiences, it does reasonably tackle some things that just may irk at you at certain points (like Edward's constant moralizing over not using the PS to get him and his brother's bodies back just because of how it was made. Look, kid, it happened, it can't be undone, GET OVER IT. Do you want your brother to stay as a hunk of metal forever?).

 

[IrenIvy]

Gungrave, - for an anime made after a shoot-them-all game it made me think a lot about human connections and how strange they might be.

 

[Jacques Joseph]

A little off-topic rant... "deep" and "philosophical" and "makes-you-think" and other such words are in my own experience used in everyday speech in so many different ways, contexts and with so hugely varying intentions and intended meanings that expectations tend to vary greatly when a movie/anime/book/whatever is recommended to someone as "deep" or "philosophical". Hence, I would say, all those good old disputes follow...
And to add something as someone with a Masters Degree in Philosophy, everyday use of the word "philosophical" and its technical use are two quite distinct things.
I, personally, would consider stuff like GitS, NGE or the afore-mentioned and non-anime Matrix or Dark Knight "philosophical" in the everyday meaning of the word but, like I said, we would first have to settle on what this everyday meaning is supposed to mean. Maybe then we´d see that most of our disagreements are more about words than about our actual opinion on said work of art...

BTW, as a big fan of anime, thanks for this thread that gives me a lot of inspiration about what I have not yet seen that might be worth seeing

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

Considering I suggested Code Geass already much earlier [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.399878.16416464] in this thread for exactly the same reason you outlined in your previous post...don't worry about it too much

I am not alone! Sweet, glorious validation.

None, really. Anime is a universally vapid medium. Most anime series make the claim of 'depth' and that's enough for most people to concur, but just because something says it's deep and bludgeons you across the face with "philosophical" themes(The Matrix, The Dark Knight, Evangelion) doesn't mean it's deep. It just means it's pretentious.

There's a very thin line between "intellectually complex" and "pretentious." A lot of the time, it's about how trivial the viewer considers the messages put forward by the work.

For example, I dated a philosophy major in my first year of university who'd never seen any anime. I put Ghost in the Shell on one night, figuring she'd appreciate it, but she thought it was shallow - the focus on Cartesian dualism put her off, since Descartes is old hat in philosophy circles. As far as she was concerned, it was as intellectually stimulating as a Disney movie, and saying you thought it was smart was basically saying "I'm too dumb to realise how dumb this is."

But basically, and I don't mean to offend you here, if you run around saying such-and-such a work comes off as pretentious because its themes are so simple and vapid as to be beneath your understanding...you come off a little pretentious. Thin lines!

Death Note is by no means a particularly deep manga (at least not intentionally), but black and white morality? You've got to be fucking kidding me.

The "was Light right?" question is practically a base splitter.

The Death Note fanbase must be insanely myopic. How could Light possibly be justified in murdering tens of thousands of people so that he could rule a terrified world?

Even if you're a fan of the death penalty for purse snatchers, what about all of the innocent people he killed solely so he could evade capture? And what was his goal? He doesn't even want to solve problems - he's just a megalomaniacal asshat. It's like arguing over whether the Joker was right in blowing up half of Gotham because he thought the explosion would look cool.