The last few episodes of evangelion made me think "what the fuck did I just watch?, what does any of this have to do with giant robots"Nouw said:
Anime That Makes You THINK?
- Thread starter Tanis
- Start date
Recommended Videos
None, really. Anime is a universally vapid medium. Most anime series make the claim of 'depth' and that's enough for most people to concur, but just because something says it's deep and bludgeons you across the face with "philosophical" themes(The Matrix, The Dark Knight, Evangelion) doesn't mean it's deep. It just means it's pretentious.
"Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it was a simple love story. Other people can read
the back of matchbook and unlock the secrets of the universe."
Bubblegum Crisis/Crash & AD Police Files
An exploration of the themes earlier explored in such works as "The Cyborg", and "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"where does the line between human & machine start to blur? When do the machines become people, and when
do the people become machines?
Outlaw Star
Kind of surprised this one hasn't been mentioned previously, considering how well known it is, and the fact
that there's a character who literally walks around asking "Why am I here? What is my place in the Universe?"
constantly. Now that I think of it, this was also played out in the second series of Digimon.
Also going to throw in with those who have already mentioned Haibane Renmei, Gundam Wing
and Full Metal Alchemist.
the back of matchbook and unlock the secrets of the universe."
Bubblegum Crisis/Crash & AD Police Files
An exploration of the themes earlier explored in such works as "The Cyborg", and "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"where does the line between human & machine start to blur? When do the machines become people, and when
do the people become machines?
Outlaw Star
Kind of surprised this one hasn't been mentioned previously, considering how well known it is, and the fact
that there's a character who literally walks around asking "Why am I here? What is my place in the Universe?"
constantly. Now that I think of it, this was also played out in the second series of Digimon.
Also going to throw in with those who have already mentioned Haibane Renmei, Gundam Wing
and Full Metal Alchemist.
It's easier for me to point out the titles that I disagree with, cause most of the titles suggested are acceptable.
First off, I'm not going to deny that I am heavily bias.
(right off the bat on the OP) I don't consider Stand Alone Complex particularly thought-provoking. In terms of political setting, it's interesting.
Ergo Proxy is just filled with references, there's no thinking outside of using wikipedia to find every thing they tried to shove into it.
Death Note doesn't make you think, it makes you anticipate tactics. The morally grey message was lost after he decided to kill off anyone who opposed him, and the anime leaves out one of the best parts of the original ending (which calls the protagonist out on his bullshit).
As a poster above me said, Code Geass tries much harder at making you think, and yes the second season was completely rushed that is no secret and it's a shame we well never get the series as it was intended.
Fate/zero is about as deep as a game of DnD (mechanics explanations), otherwise it never goes further than one type of moral dilemma (do ends justify the means etc).
First off, I'm not going to deny that I am heavily bias.
(right off the bat on the OP) I don't consider Stand Alone Complex particularly thought-provoking. In terms of political setting, it's interesting.
Ergo Proxy is just filled with references, there's no thinking outside of using wikipedia to find every thing they tried to shove into it.
Death Note doesn't make you think, it makes you anticipate tactics. The morally grey message was lost after he decided to kill off anyone who opposed him, and the anime leaves out one of the best parts of the original ending (which calls the protagonist out on his bullshit).
As a poster above me said, Code Geass tries much harder at making you think, and yes the second season was completely rushed that is no secret and it's a shame we well never get the series as it was intended.
Fate/zero is about as deep as a game of DnD (mechanics explanations), otherwise it never goes further than one type of moral dilemma (do ends justify the means etc).
Exploring its theme, moral implications and the reasons why the characters do what they do, are left for the viewer. I can't see how offering more premasticated views from those aspects would do anything else than crop out material to think about.Chromatic Aberration said:
I'd see it rather pointless to dwell deeper on the matter of something being 'deep' or not; definition, subjectivity and personal taste play a far too large role. Those, and similar discussions also tend to pick up too much on noncontextual factors.
Yes! Psycho pass is really good and explores its themes from the start. Definitely suggest it.Baneat said:
I'd argue a painting is black and white even if the viewer is color-blind, but you've got a point. It might be less important that some sort of moral question exists than that people think it exists.Milk said:
On the other hand, it could just be me. I tend to find 'deep' works to be pretty rote and trite, and more mainstream stuff to have layers of philosophical and symbolic complexity.
I think we watched two different endings, because I'm pretty sure the opposite happened...Blank Verse said:
While I did praise Cowboy bebop earlier in this thread, I do have to say that I take recommendations with a grain of salt, since I've seen people promote garbage like Elfen Lied saying that "It makes you THINK". No, because your show has a message does not always mean that message is presented thoughtfully or even effectively. If I can't watch your show without getting turned off by the relentless violence, unlikeable protagonists and endless exposition, you're not making me think in the way you expect me to.
I'm not thinking about the ethical, social or moral implications of the story, I'm left thinking "who the hell greenlit this mess?"
I'm not thinking about the ethical, social or moral implications of the story, I'm left thinking "who the hell greenlit this mess?"
Another one for Fullmetal Alchemist here. The manga and Brotherhood anime, I mean, not the first anime (a.k.a. the depressingly bleak spin-off that was riddled with poor pacing and time-wasting filler, fucked over the majority of its characters, not least of all Hohenheim, and had a piss-poor ending in a follow-up movie that made no fucking sense whatsoever). I'm currently writing an essay on Mustang and Hawkeye's relationship just because of how much I've found myself invested in it, even though it's not as blatant as so many other relationships in other anime.
Not to mention that FMA probably has one of the most well-rounded character casts in not only anime, but fiction in general. The only characters that I genuinely dislike (discounting the ones that I just find bland or superfluous, like the Elrics' chimera comrades) are Winry and May Chang (because I don't like their character designs, and I find them annoying characters who just get in the way most of the time).
Even though I think author Hiromu Arakawa could've probably stood to explore the philosophical themes of her manga, since she did apparently research a lot about alchemy as well as drawing from her own life experiences, it does reasonably tackle some things that just may irk at you at certain points (like Edward's constant moralizing over not using the PS to get him and his brother's bodies back just because of how it was made. Look, kid, it happened, it can't be undone, GET OVER IT. Do you want your brother to stay as a hunk of metal forever?).
Not to mention that FMA probably has one of the most well-rounded character casts in not only anime, but fiction in general. The only characters that I genuinely dislike (discounting the ones that I just find bland or superfluous, like the Elrics' chimera comrades) are Winry and May Chang (because I don't like their character designs, and I find them annoying characters who just get in the way most of the time).
Even though I think author Hiromu Arakawa could've probably stood to explore the philosophical themes of her manga, since she did apparently research a lot about alchemy as well as drawing from her own life experiences, it does reasonably tackle some things that just may irk at you at certain points (like Edward's constant moralizing over not using the PS to get him and his brother's bodies back just because of how it was made. Look, kid, it happened, it can't be undone, GET OVER IT. Do you want your brother to stay as a hunk of metal forever?).
A little off-topic rant... "deep" and "philosophical" and "makes-you-think" and other such words are in my own experience used in everyday speech in so many different ways, contexts and with so hugely varying intentions and intended meanings that expectations tend to vary greatly when a movie/anime/book/whatever is recommended to someone as "deep" or "philosophical". Hence, I would say, all those good old disputes follow...
And to add something as someone with a Masters Degree in Philosophy, everyday use of the word "philosophical" and its technical use are two quite distinct things.
I, personally, would consider stuff like GitS, NGE or the afore-mentioned and non-anime Matrix or Dark Knight "philosophical" in the everyday meaning of the word but, like I said, we would first have to settle on what this everyday meaning is supposed to mean. Maybe then we´d see that most of our disagreements are more about words than about our actual opinion on said work of art...
BTW, as a big fan of anime, thanks for this thread that gives me a lot of inspiration about what I have not yet seen that might be worth seeing
And to add something as someone with a Masters Degree in Philosophy, everyday use of the word "philosophical" and its technical use are two quite distinct things.
I, personally, would consider stuff like GitS, NGE or the afore-mentioned and non-anime Matrix or Dark Knight "philosophical" in the everyday meaning of the word but, like I said, we would first have to settle on what this everyday meaning is supposed to mean. Maybe then we´d see that most of our disagreements are more about words than about our actual opinion on said work of art...
BTW, as a big fan of anime, thanks for this thread that gives me a lot of inspiration about what I have not yet seen that might be worth seeing
I am not alone! Sweet, glorious validation.Chromatic Aberration said:Considering I suggested Code Geass already much earlier [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.399878.16416464] in this thread for exactly the same reason you outlined in your previous post...don't worry about it too much
There's a very thin line between "intellectually complex" and "pretentious." A lot of the time, it's about how trivial the viewer considers the messages put forward by the work.Raika said:
For example, I dated a philosophy major in my first year of university who'd never seen any anime. I put Ghost in the Shell on one night, figuring she'd appreciate it, but she thought it was shallow - the focus on Cartesian dualism put her off, since Descartes is old hat in philosophy circles. As far as she was concerned, it was as intellectually stimulating as a Disney movie, and saying you thought it was smart was basically saying "I'm too dumb to realise how dumb this is."
But basically, and I don't mean to offend you here, if you run around saying such-and-such a work comes off as pretentious because its themes are so simple and vapid as to be beneath your understanding...you come off a little pretentious. Thin lines!
The Death Note fanbase must be insanely myopic. How could Light possibly be justified in murdering tens of thousands of people so that he could rule a terrified world?Milk said:
Even if you're a fan of the death penalty for purse snatchers, what about all of the innocent people he killed solely so he could evade capture? And what was his goal? He doesn't even want to solve problems - he's just a megalomaniacal asshat. It's like arguing over whether the Joker was right in blowing up half of Gotham because he thought the explosion would look cool.
High School of the Dead(No I'm kidding, really, don't watch it. It's bad.)
Steins;Gate
Another
Elfen Lied(Dem symbols man)
Higurashi no Naku koro ni(When They Cry is the English title, but less used)
Steins;Gate
Another
Elfen Lied(Dem symbols man)
Higurashi no Naku koro ni(When They Cry is the English title, but less used)
One that comes to mind is Code Geass. Goes into free will and questions of advancement over stability and vice versa. Really interesting and has excellent characters.
I actually like the rebuilds, they are a lot better quality and fun to watch. On their own they would be okay but if you look at them as an extension of the original they are great because you can fill in a lot of the blanks with what you already know about the original characters. I believe in the sequel theory and I cant wait for the third one to come to America. From what I hear the third one goes completely off the rails and into uncharted territory.Casual Shinji said:
Berserk is also awesome, the whole backstory arc should be considered a masterpiece in the manga world.
OT:
An anime I would add to the list is The Animatrix. Its a bunch of shorts but the ones that stand out to me the most are the two parts of Second Renaissance. It makes you wonder how we would react to machine intelligence. The whole thing is on youtube if you want to watch it. Here is the second part, warning EXTREMELY brutal(both of them are I guess). Id also suggest checking out World record, another animatrix short short.
Puella Magi Madoka Magica
This thing is to anime what Majora's Mask was to the Zelda series.
Look, I know the cover-art makes it look all super cutsey and girly. It's not. I know the first few episodes are pretty bland and the series itself is only 12 episodes long... but give it a chance. Make it to at least the 3rd episode, thats the one that will make you regret putting it off watching it for 6 months (like I did). This is one of those anime's that was so good it made it hard for me to enjoy other anime afterwards. This is anime is good because despite the premise and art style, it's not at all the typical happy "power of friendship" thing it briefly masquerades as. This anime is a TRADGEDY, in the narrative sense, and so few other anime can pull this off without being all faux-grimdark about it. I'd say watch it for that alone. It's pretty much the definition of a "deconstruction" too, in that it basically takes what's usually a generic'y fairy-tale'ish premise and goes "hey, what if we actually followed everything out to it's LOGICAL conclusion and let the plot play out that way? Happily ever after or not..."
I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post links here, but if it doesn't get removed, this review explains things much better than I can http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/ir/jo/jar/36398-madoka-magica
I do recommend watching it subbed though, the English voice actors are pretty awful.
If you live in the United States you can also watch it free and legally through Crackle's service on Xbox Live or their website.
This thing is to anime what Majora's Mask was to the Zelda series.
Look, I know the cover-art makes it look all super cutsey and girly. It's not. I know the first few episodes are pretty bland and the series itself is only 12 episodes long... but give it a chance. Make it to at least the 3rd episode, thats the one that will make you regret putting it off watching it for 6 months (like I did). This is one of those anime's that was so good it made it hard for me to enjoy other anime afterwards. This is anime is good because despite the premise and art style, it's not at all the typical happy "power of friendship" thing it briefly masquerades as. This anime is a TRADGEDY, in the narrative sense, and so few other anime can pull this off without being all faux-grimdark about it. I'd say watch it for that alone. It's pretty much the definition of a "deconstruction" too, in that it basically takes what's usually a generic'y fairy-tale'ish premise and goes "hey, what if we actually followed everything out to it's LOGICAL conclusion and let the plot play out that way? Happily ever after or not..."
I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post links here, but if it doesn't get removed, this review explains things much better than I can http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/ir/jo/jar/36398-madoka-magica
I do recommend watching it subbed though, the English voice actors are pretty awful.
If you live in the United States you can also watch it free and legally through Crackle's service on Xbox Live or their website.
Not sure if you should maybe spoiler tag that stuff.Relish in Chaos said:
Also i can't tell if you're saying you understand but were still irked by it? or if you were just irked by it and don't get why he was having such aversions. So if it's the latter:
He doesn't want to be a murderer. Which is a pretty strong justification for not selfishly taking his and his brothers body back using it. He considers all the souls in a philosophers stone to be just as alive as his brother. Same as when he wouldn't kill that other suit of armour that guarded lab 5.
So I guess the question there is: Do you think he's right? They may not have a body any more, but those souls appear to be very much 'alive' in there (again, the parallel to Alphonse, who also lacks his original body and is nothing but a soul locked inside an object). Then once you decide whether or not you still consider them to be people/'alive', you then have to decide whether 'killing' them by using the stone as you intend is justified/'okay' or not.
So I guess the question there is: Do you think he's right? They may not have a body any more, but those souls appear to be very much 'alive' in there (again, the parallel to Alphonse, who also lacks his original body and is nothing but a soul locked inside an object). Then once you decide whether or not you still consider them to be people/'alive', you then have to decide whether 'killing' them by using the stone as you intend is justified/'okay' or not.
Either way, does definitely fit the bill of thought provoking
Try Samurai Champloo it's made by the same guy that did Cowboy Bebop and if you dont have a problem with blood and slightly confusing plots Baccano! is another good one with an amazing english dub and it's all on youtube i believe.Gabanuka said: