Annoying maths puzzle.

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Redingold

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Mar 28, 2009
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Lukeje said:
Redingold said:
Gah, damn fiddly questions like that. I loves 'em. For example, by adding 1 line, make this correct: IX + III = IX
IX + III =/= IX

And on-topic, is n a constant?
Not the answer I was thinking of. My answer was : SIX +III = IX

And, yes, n is a constant.
 

not a zaar

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Dec 16, 2008
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Here's a math problem for you:
Say you have an infinite plane which is moving along a single axis with a speed given by the equation u=U*cos(wt) where U and w are constants. What is the velocity distribution of the semi-infinite fluid above this plane? Assume constant properites. I'll post the solution later if anybody is interested.
 

Redingold

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Mar 28, 2009
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AdmiralWolverineLightningbolt said:
IX + II = 411
you can only add one line like yours
Hmmm, tricky, you need some way to add CD (400) in one line. I'm not gonna cheat and change it to =/=, so I'm stumped.
 
Aug 13, 2008
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Redingold said:
Lukeje said:
Redingold said:
Gah, damn fiddly questions like that. I loves 'em. For example, by adding 1 line, make this correct: IX + III = IX
IX + III =/= IX

And on-topic, is n a constant?
Not the answer I was thinking of. My answer was : SIX +III = IX

And, yes, n is a constant.
aah, didnt think of adding a curved line
clever

Redingold said:
AdmiralWolverineLightningbolt said:
IX + II = 411
you can only add one line like yours
Hmmm, tricky, you need some way to add CD (400) in one line. I'm not gonna cheat and change it to =/=, so I'm stumped.
this one's slightly simpler
you just add a diagonal line to the plus to change the + to a 4
then you get IX4II = 411
or 1 x 411 = 411

they annoy me so much though
 

fulano

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Oct 14, 2007
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Kubanator said:
unabomberman said:
Alex_P said:
unabomberman said:
The problem is wrong. If you don't know how much you are turning, and with respect to what, you can't answer the damn question.
Untrue.
You know you turn by some constant n each time. You can express the answer as a function of n.
The problem gives you enough information to safely assume that n is a rotation in the x-y plane (since that's the one you're capable of moving in). There's ambiguity in whether you're measuring n clockwise or counterclockwise (although it's also perfectly reasonable to just assume that, if you face towards +x, positive n is towards +y) but that doesn't stop you from being able to calculate anything.

-- alex
I'm assuming we are rotating with respect to the z axis(which you are led to assume but not outwardly told).

Look, if you are indeed talking about polar coordinates, then there is no debate: It is clockwise, and to iron it further home, you would have to be talking about a function like sine, cosine, tangent, etc. that takes into account the angle of rotation(theta), but then again, you are also told that you take steps forward or backwards, whatever. There, you got another variable there. And yet, you want to answer this thing only with respect to theta.

Sorry, but no can do.
Uh what? You always take steps in the facing direction. This isn't a problem you answer in terms of numbers, you answer in a formula. It's grade 12+ math. There is only 2 variable. The number of times you have gone through this, and the angle of rotation. And it doesn't matter if you rotate on the Y or Z axis, those letters are simply representations of dimentions. This is a 2D problem.

Ok, assuming that t = angle of rotation, and n = the step you are on, we can say:

1/2^n = distance of the step
and
t*(n-1) = angle you are facing on the next step.

So, lets solve it. What we need is a way of finding X/Y co-ordinates from these 2 numbers.

Ok, to find the distance the person moved in the Y axis on that step, it's sin(t*(n-1))/2^n.
For the X axis, it's cos(t*(n-1))/2^n.

Ok, now you simply have to choose how many repetitions you go through, because you won't get a specific answer, rather you'll get an answer that grows infinitely precise.
Ya, I get it now. the thing's supposed to be in parametric terms. Gotcha.

My bad. But then again, I think the problem is not exactly written right. For example, I didn't exactly understand the term step, and I immediately took it as meaning that you could move in another axis at any given moment, even though we were supposed to be moving in polar coordinates only(rotations with respect to the Z axis).

But I still think that believing you can answer the question only in terms of rotations is wrong. You need to specify where you go with those steps, don't you?
 

Kubanator

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Dec 7, 2008
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unabomberman said:
Kubanator said:
unabomberman said:
Alex_P said:
unabomberman said:
The problem is wrong. If you don't know how much you are turning, and with respect to what, you can't answer the damn question.
Untrue.
You know you turn by some constant n each time. You can express the answer as a function of n.
The problem gives you enough information to safely assume that n is a rotation in the x-y plane (since that's the one you're capable of moving in). There's ambiguity in whether you're measuring n clockwise or counterclockwise (although it's also perfectly reasonable to just assume that, if you face towards +x, positive n is towards +y) but that doesn't stop you from being able to calculate anything.

-- alex
I'm assuming we are rotating with respect to the z axis(which you are led to assume but not outwardly told).

Look, if you are indeed talking about polar coordinates, then there is no debate: It is clockwise, and to iron it further home, you would have to be talking about a function like sine, cosine, tangent, etc. that takes into account the angle of rotation(theta), but then again, you are also told that you take steps forward or backwards, whatever. There, you got another variable there. And yet, you want to answer this thing only with respect to theta.

Sorry, but no can do.
Uh what? You always take steps in the facing direction. This isn't a problem you answer in terms of numbers, you answer in a formula. It's grade 12+ math. There is only 2 variable. The number of times you have gone through this, and the angle of rotation. And it doesn't matter if you rotate on the Y or Z axis, those letters are simply representations of dimentions. This is a 2D problem.

Ok, assuming that t = angle of rotation, and n = the step you are on, we can say:

1/2^n = distance of the step
and
t*(n-1) = angle you are facing on the next step.

So, lets solve it. What we need is a way of finding X/Y co-ordinates from these 2 numbers.

Ok, to find the distance the person moved in the Y axis on that step, it's sin(t*(n-1))/2^n.
For the X axis, it's cos(t*(n-1))/2^n.

Ok, now you simply have to choose how many repetitions you go through, because you won't get a specific answer, rather you'll get an answer that grows infinitely precise.
Ya, I get it now. the thing's supposed to be in parametric terms. Gotcha.

My bad. But then again, I think the problem is not exactly written right. For example, I didn't exactly understand the term step, and I immediately took it as meaning that you could move in another axis at any given moment, even though we were supposed to be moving in polar coordinates only(rotations with respect to the Z axis).

But I still think that believing you can answer the question only in terms of rotations is wrong. You need to specify where you go with those steps, don't you?
I believe he wanted the angle respect to the origin, but yes, you should define is at 2 co-ordinates.
 

fulano

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Oct 14, 2007
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Kubanator said:
unabomberman said:
Kubanator said:
unabomberman said:
Alex_P said:
unabomberman said:
The problem is wrong. If you don't know how much you are turning, and with respect to what, you can't answer the damn question.
Untrue.
You know you turn by some constant n each time. You can express the answer as a function of n.
The problem gives you enough information to safely assume that n is a rotation in the x-y plane (since that's the one you're capable of moving in). There's ambiguity in whether you're measuring n clockwise or counterclockwise (although it's also perfectly reasonable to just assume that, if you face towards +x, positive n is towards +y) but that doesn't stop you from being able to calculate anything.

-- alex
I'm assuming we are rotating with respect to the z axis(which you are led to assume but not outwardly told).

Look, if you are indeed talking about polar coordinates, then there is no debate: It is clockwise, and to iron it further home, you would have to be talking about a function like sine, cosine, tangent, etc. that takes into account the angle of rotation(theta), but then again, you are also told that you take steps forward or backwards, whatever. There, you got another variable there. And yet, you want to answer this thing only with respect to theta.

Sorry, but no can do.
Uh what? You always take steps in the facing direction. This isn't a problem you answer in terms of numbers, you answer in a formula. It's grade 12+ math. There is only 2 variable. The number of times you have gone through this, and the angle of rotation. And it doesn't matter if you rotate on the Y or Z axis, those letters are simply representations of dimentions. This is a 2D problem.

Ok, assuming that t = angle of rotation, and n = the step you are on, we can say:

1/2^n = distance of the step
and
t*(n-1) = angle you are facing on the next step.

So, lets solve it. What we need is a way of finding X/Y co-ordinates from these 2 numbers.

Ok, to find the distance the person moved in the Y axis on that step, it's sin(t*(n-1))/2^n.
For the X axis, it's cos(t*(n-1))/2^n.

Ok, now you simply have to choose how many repetitions you go through, because you won't get a specific answer, rather you'll get an answer that grows infinitely precise.
Ya, I get it now. the thing's supposed to be in parametric terms. Gotcha.

My bad. But then again, I think the problem is not exactly written right. For example, I didn't exactly understand the term step, and I immediately took it as meaning that you could move in another axis at any given moment, even though we were supposed to be moving in polar coordinates only(rotations with respect to the Z axis).

But I still think that believing you can answer the question only in terms of rotations is wrong. You need to specify where you go with those steps, don't you?
I believe he wanted the angle respect to the origin, but yes, you should define is at 2 co-ordinates.
Yeah, and it will get annoying with one step, then half a step, and then a quarter of a step. but then again, I guess if there was just one step, then that's it, I believe (cos(n)-1,sin(n)), but then again, you have to account for those extra bitty steps, ugh...
 

ILPPendant

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Jul 15, 2008
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ILPPendant said:
In before someone says final coordinates are (1 + cos n, sin n).

EDIT: Gah!

EDIT 2: Never let it be said I copied someone else so I'll explain what I did.

Our starting point is effectively on the coordinates (1,0) and after each iteration we rotate by n degrees and move one half the distance we moved previously. This means that for the Nth iteration we will sum from i to N 2[sup]-i[/sup]cos n and then add one for the x coordinate and 2[sup]-i[/sup]sin n for the y coordinate.

A quick round of algebra shows these sums to come out as 2[sup]-N[/sup](2[sup]N[/sup] - 1)cos n (or sin n). Taking the limit to infinity leaves us with just cos n or sin n.

Hence the result.
Bleh...

I didn't read the OP properly. The final angle one must rotate through to cross the endpoint is n/2.

Tired. Have not slept for 28 hours. Will put out a correct solution tomorrow.
 

Gruthar

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Mar 27, 2009
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Damnit, forgot how to do infinite series.

So far I've got:

x coordinate = the infinite sum of cos(xn)/(2^x) beginning at x = 0
y coordinate = the infinite sum of sin(xn)/(2^x) beginning at x = 0

Must make brain remember calculus.
 

BaronAsh

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Feb 6, 2008
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Redingold said:
Somebody posed me this problem, and I can't work it out.

You're standing on a graph, with the x-axis in front of you, and the y-axis to your side. You take 1 step forward, turn through n degrees, take half a step forward, turn through n degrees again, take a quarter of a step forward, turn through n degrees, etc.

In terms of n, where do you end up?

If you could say how you worked it out, that'd be swell.

Are you bad at geometry?

All your doing is making a spiral infinitely.
 

Gruthar

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Mar 27, 2009
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BaronAsh said:
Are you bad at geometry?

All your doing is making a spiral infinitely.
You do realize that because you're halving the distance traveled at each turn, the spiral does eventually approximate a coordinate? You know, a limit.
 

ILPPendant

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Jul 15, 2008
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Gruthar said:
Damnit, forgot how to do infinite series.

So far I've got:

x coordinate = the infinite sum of cos(xn)/(2^x) beginning at x = 0
y coordinate = the infinite sum of sin(xn)/(2^x) beginning at x = 0

Must make brain remember calculus.
The quick way of doing it is to find the sum to N and then take the limit as N tends to infinity.

Naturally this only works if a sequence is convergent. Which I believe those are.
 

Chief Oppupu

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Feb 23, 2009
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I think the answer is ((4 - 2 cos(n))/(5-4 cos(n)), 2 sin(n)/(5 - 4 cos(n))

Here's how you arrive at this answer: I'll write the point (x,y) in the plane as the complex number x + i y. We'll use Euler's formula, e^(it) = cos(t) + i sin(t).

The distance you travel in the kth step is (cos(kn) + i sin(kn))/2^k = w^k, where w = e^(in)/2. So after k steps, your position is 1 + w + w^2 + ... + w^k. So your limiting position is the infinite sum 1 + w + w^2 + w^3 + .... This is a geometric series whose sum is 1/(1-w), which simplifies to the above answer.

(My first post on The Escapist!)
 

ILPPendant

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Jul 15, 2008
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Chief Oppupu said:
I think the answer is ((4 - 2 cos(n))/(5-4 cos(n)), 2 sin(n)/(5 - 4 cos(n))

Here's how you arrive at this answer: I'll write the point (x,y) in the plane as the complex number x + i y. We'll use Euler's formula, e^(it) = cos(t) + i sin(t).

The distance you travel in the kth step is (cos(kn) + i sin(kn))/2^k = w^k, where w = e^(in)/2. So after k steps, your position is 1 + w + w^2 + ... + w^k. So your limiting position is the infinite sum 1 + w + w^2 + w^3 + .... This is a geometric series whose sum is 1/(1-w), which simplifies to the above answer.

(My first post on The Escapist!)
I like this.

Since you're new you probably don't realise this but you can use {sup}{/sup} to put things in superscript rather than filling the lines with circumflexes. It just looks a little neater.
 

Gruthar

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Mar 27, 2009
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ILPPendant said:
Gruthar said:
Damnit, forgot how to do infinite series.

So far I've got:

x coordinate = the infinite sum of cos(xn)/(2^x) beginning at x = 0
y coordinate = the infinite sum of sin(xn)/(2^x) beginning at x = 0

Must make brain remember calculus.
The quick way of doing it is to find the sum to N and then take the limit as N tends to infinity.

Naturally this only works if a sequence is convergent. Which I believe those are.

But your result is different from mine; can you show your working?
Well, that's my starting point, so I can only explain how I came up with those equations. To clarify, n is the degree constant, and x is the nth term. 2^-x is the distance traveled at each iteration, and xn is the angle of travel at each iteration. To break those up into Cartesian coordinates, I just used the usual distance*cos(theta), distance*sin(theta)
form. The final point is just a sum of all the terms.

To double check my equations, I plugged in the first few terms and compared them to what I worked out doing the first few terms manually. Initially, x = 0, so cos(0)/(2^0) = 1 and sin(0)/(2^0) = 0. So the first point is (1,0).

Next, x = 1, so cos(n)/(2^1) = cos(n)/2 and sin(n)/(2^1) = sin(n)/2
Being a sum, the next point is 1 + cos(n)/2, sin(n)/2

At x = 2, you get cos(2n)/(2^2) and sin(2n)/(2^2)
for the point 1 + cos(n)/2 + cos(2n)/4, sin(n)/2 + sin(2n)/4

And so on. I think I have an answer, but it looks nasty. Will post in a few.