Another High School Student Arrested

[Bongo Bill]

In Canada, there is an overall fear of and respect towards firearms. I just don't see this cautious attitude in the US with respect to gun legislation. I think that speaks volumes on the issue.

I can, of course, only speak from personal experience, but in the US, the people with the most fear and respect for firearms seems to be the ones who own them - it's only the people who don't know first-hand just what it's like to hold one or shoot one who seem to be casually dismissive of them.

It may well be a cultural thing. Every civilization has its violent entertainment based strongly on its martial traditions. More than any other culture, the US' martial tradition consists of firearms. Consequently, more than any other culture, the US' violent entertainment features firearms.

A gun is a lot scarier than (for example) a sword. It's louder than you expect, and using it is not terribly artful. In order to make successful entertainment with guns in it, you really have to downplay just how much power it has. A few generations of this, with the entertainment being made by people for whom frequently their closest exposure to the source material is academic, if not merely through other entertainment, and the entertainment will erode the mystique or respect that guns have among non-gun-owners. It's not merely that they become ubiquitous, but that they become mundane and non-threatening.

People are afraid of school shootings. It's not even that they think that a person who plays video games is going to shoot people. It's just that they're afraid that it will happen. It's something that You Do Not Joke About. Anything that suggests that you don't share this fear of it - such as modeling a mockup of a familiar area in a FPS engine - immediately casts suspicion on you. It's not even a conscious thing. Decent Folk, who are afraid of school shootings, aren't going to be the ones to do it. After all, you yourself aren't going to shoot up a high school - why would anybody who's like you do that? And the reason you're not going to do it is because you understand that school shootings are a Gravely Serious Affair. (You have momentarily forgotten such motivating factors as human decency, and rightly so, because seeing a crazy person commit mass murder tends to paralyze one's faith in human decency). But a person who doesn't think they're that big a deal? Why, what's to stop them from turning into a killer? You don't know - who could possibly, after all, understand that kind of heartless monster? - but you're not going to wait around to find out that the answer is "nothing at all."

The problem is that we've been so afraid of school shootings for so long that, in order to demonstrate the natural, healthy sentiments of not-wanting-to-shoot-people-at-school and not-wanting-people-to-be-shot-at-school, then you have to demonstrate absolute commitment to not mixing the concepts of school and shooting in even the most superficial of ways. The fact that we have games about shooting, in which the layout of a school can be duplicated, complicates the matter for people who don't buy into the hysteria.

 

[Russ Pitts]

Yep. I think Bongo Bill hit the respective nails on their respective heads in just about all respects. Nice analysis.

 

[Bongo Bill]

Why, thank you.

 

[Echolocating]

I understand what your saying, Bill. However, I was referring to the government legislation of firearms. In many states, you can walk around with an open firearm. That sounds like asking for trouble. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Bongo Bill]

I understand what your saying, Bill. However, I was referring to the government legislation of firearms. In many states, you can walk around with an open firearm. That sounds like asking for trouble. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Oh, that.

Well, I can't say I have an opinion one way or the other as to the relative merit of concealed-carry laws. I am of the opinion that the reason for the Constitutional enumeration of the right to bear arms originally had nothing to do with any such thing as the proliferation of murder or self-defense. As I see it, the reason Americans were allowed to have guns was to be able to assert their will upon a government that doesn't listen to them, whether because we're being invaded or because the Powers That Be start ignoring votes. It is essentially because The People were intended to be the ultimate sovereign power in the country, and this role requires the ability to assert that power (e.g. with weapons).

It's an entirely valid question whether this contingency is outweighed by such modern complications as violent crime and the laughable inferiority of the U.S. Militia in comparison to any hostile army (including the U.S.' own) that would dare set foot on American soil these days.... But it's a dimension that shouldn't be overlooked.

 

[Bellicose [deprecated]]

I have to admit, I am new to this site, having just been informed of it a couple of days ago, but this is a refreshingly intelligent and grammatically correct (more or less...) discussion. Fantastic! Please forgive any repeated characters in my discourse, as I am using a $20 wireless keyboard from Wal-Mart for the time being.

I have been an emotional participant in this very problem since the heavy metal/Satan period, and, more relevantly, the early days of Dungeons & Dragons. Back in the late '70's or early 80's, some kid "Dungeon Master" took some of his friends into the sewers and hacked 'em up. Roleplaying games have swords, and demons, and evil! Our kids are killing things!

At this point in history, video games consisted of Pac-Man, Donkey Kong, and Pitfall. You CAN'T kill things in Pitfall... But, in roleplaying games, your children are faced with moral decisions, and, sometimes, they play evil themselves! So, which ones are going to go "Beyond the Books" and take a dagger/kitchen knife to school and stab a teacher? Who knows? Ban it all in school.

Then, as in now, older generations have to compare the world to the schema, the paradigm, they're familiar with. If you grew up post-World War II, you worked hard, had no fantasy life, and your kids did what you told them to. Post-Cold War, when instant mass violence was a perceived threat, you have to take an occurance of it very seriously. These adults grew up hiding under desks under threat of nuclear attack. So, now that they are the teachers, and there is a threat of violence in their classroom? Damn straight, they'll take it seriously.

Nowadays, how many people truly persecute roleplayers, after games like EverQuest, Final Fantasy, etc.? I used to get made fun of for using a computer. Imagine that now! But the correlation between society's reaction to school killings, be it roleplaying- or video-game is the same: a generational misunderstanding, lack of accurate information, and out-dated beliefs and world-views.

If someone on Little House on the Prairie killed a "bunch" of people, it would have been, what, 2 kids? Automatic rifles and such allow mass killings. Put it in perspective, percentage-wise, and there is probably a similar, if not lesser, percentage of violent juvenille deaths, outside of drug or gang violence, than ever.

Toss in an exploitative media, instant news availability, and visual images of such disasters, and we are on the brink of a huge social movement. We will be the ones who help determine the outcome. Intelligent discourse such as this is valuable, and MUST be preserved.

Kids should be allowed to be creative. Parents, if your kid plays video games, go talk to his teachers and discuss it with them. Be active. And, teachers, be wary and concerned, but gauge your reactions.

Ok, long post, hope it was interesting, at least. I cut some lines of thought short to avoid rambling.

Again, fantastic discussion...

 

[Chris Chasteen [deprecated]]

I can, of course, only speak from personal experience, but in the US, the people with the most fear and respect for firearms seems to be the ones who own them - it's only the people who don't know first-hand just what it's like to hold one or shoot one who seem to be casually dismissive of them.

While I agree with the rest of your argument, I think the statement above is flawed. Gangmembers that use guns to to kill each other know what it is to hold and use a gun.

Growing up in Minnesota and Wisconsin and being a hunter from a youong age, my dad ALWAYS had guns in the house--unloaded ofcourse, and not handguns. Since I was strong enough to hold a twenty-two and shoot it, I was plinking pop cans off a stump up to the family cabin FOR FUN! It was entertaining to see who could hit a target more times than the other...my brother would compete to see who was a better shot (he is and doesn't even hunt!!!).

So I don't think it's true that people who own guns are more respectful of them. I think it's people who were taught at a young to repect them that really respect them for what they are--useful tools for hunting, a source of protection, and in the right situation a source of entertainment (target practice).

 

[Russ Pitts]

That's a really good point, Chris, and a distinction I admit that even I didn't make at first. I, too, was raised in a hunting family, and was trained in the proper use and care of firearms at a very early age. I consider myself a "lawful" gun owner, and have the appropriate respect for firearms. I would consider a criminal an "unlawful" gun owner, since many, by committing violent crimes int eh first place, have forfeited their 2nd Amendment rights. I imagine we can assume the distinction is implied for further debate on the subject, but it's valuable to note.