Another NSA infiltration thread

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Multi-Hobbyist

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This time, diving into Xbox Live and World of Warcraft. How many terrorists do YOU game with? What are their usernames? Why do you hate peace and freedom? When is your next attack planned? Where will this spying madness end?! But in all seriousness, imagine the comedy of running into one of these tosspots. And then the anger of your (potential, if you live in the US) tax paying dollars going to these folks. I've never considered a 12 year old child, nor a basement dwelling neckbeard, as a mastermind behind a terrorist act.

NSA gaming and you
 

Esotera

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I don't care because they are protecting my freedoms, if I can't see it happening then I don't care. The massive amount of money they spend on these program is obviously worth it because it helps them catch terrorists, and at the end of the day that's all that matters.
 

DoPo

"You're not cleared for that."
Jan 30, 2012
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Esotera said:
I don't care because they are protecting my freedoms, if I can't see it happening then I don't care. The massive amount of money they spend on these program is obviously worth it because it helps them catch terrorists, and at the end of the day that's all that matters.
Also, we obviously know it works - we haven't been eaten by terrorists, therefore the NSFBCIBBQ are indeed doing their job correctly.
 

Neverhoodian

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Esotera said:
I don't care because they are protecting my freedoms, if I can't see it happening then I don't care. The massive amount of money they spend on these program is obviously worth it because it helps them catch terrorists, and at the end of the day that's all that matters.
The ends justify the means then...charming.

Personally, I'd rather live in a society that runs the risk of terrorist attacks if it means ordinary citizens don't have to worry about their Fourth Amendment rights being violated.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin
 

Greg White

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Multi-Hobbyist said:
This time, diving into Xbox Live and World of Warcraft. How many terrorists do YOU game with? What are their usernames? Why do you hate peace and freedom? When is your next attack planned? Where will this spying madness end?! But in all seriousness, imagine the comedy of running into one of these tosspots. And then the anger of your (potential, if you live in the US) tax paying dollars going to these folks. I've never considered a 12 year old child, nor a basement dwelling neckbeard, as a mastermind behind a terrorist act.
You'd be surprised what some people have done, and there's more to the NSA's searches than just terrorists. They also track down script kiddies and people who download CP.
 

Poppy JR.

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Doesn't this topic belong in the Religion and Politics section?[footnote]http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/index/528-Religion-and-Politics[/footnote]
 

BakedSardine

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The idea that the NSA is doing ANYTHING to protect us from terrorists, is laughable. Leahy called out Alexander on this under sworn testimony:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcHdAoSUz9g

The best thing that came out of 9/11 as far as protecting Americans against future attacks is it made citizens aware that they must act when they see a threat. Never again will a plane be taken over in flight simply because we now lock the cockpit doors and people will not simply let that happen. Could we have someone infiltrate as a pilot and crash a jet? Sure, but we won't have terrorists taking over with box cutters.

As far as the FBI - the vast majority (if not all) of the plots they have thwarted have been nothing more than honey pot operations where, if not for the support of undercover FBI agents in a sting, the people we have arrested would not have been involved in these so called "plots."
 

Esotera

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Neverhoodian said:
Esotera said:
I don't care because they are protecting my freedoms, if I can't see it happening then I don't care. The massive amount of money they spend on these program is obviously worth it because it helps them catch terrorists, and at the end of the day that's all that matters.
The ends justify the means then...charming.

Personally, I'd rather live in a society that runs the risk of terrorist attacks if it means ordinary citizens don't have to worry about their Fourth Amendment rights being violated.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin
My post was meant to be sarcastic because last time we had an NSA thread the first 3 pages essentially just said "I'm totally fine with this". Anyway, this programme is a complete waste of money and I wouldn't be surprised if GCHQ are doing something similar.
 

Neverhoodian

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Esotera said:
My post was meant to be sarcastic because last time we had an NSA thread the first 3 pages essentially just said "I'm totally fine with this". Anyway, this programme is a complete waste of money and I wouldn't be surprised if GCHQ are doing something similar.
Curses, my sarcasm detector must be busted again. My apologies.

But yeah, it's a sad state of affairs if I thought you were serious because I've run across people with that exact mindset.
 

Heronblade

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Neverhoodian said:
Esotera said:
I don't care because they are protecting my freedoms, if I can't see it happening then I don't care. The massive amount of money they spend on these program is obviously worth it because it helps them catch terrorists, and at the end of the day that's all that matters.
The ends justify the means then...charming.

Personally, I'd rather live in a society that runs the risk of terrorist attacks if it means ordinary citizens don't have to worry about their Fourth Amendment rights being violated.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin
Stop bloody misusing this quote. Society itself is a balancing act between liberty and safety, and Benjamin Franklin freely acknowledged as much. I appreciate that you, unlike some others, kept the qualifying terms essential and little in there, but it is still out of context.

In point of fact, this quote comes from a letter condemning the Pennsylvanian governor for trying to force a major family not under his jurisdiction to pay taxes for the sake of frontier defense. Franklin was not describing some tension between government power and individual liberty. He was describing effective self-government in the service of security as the liberty it would be contemptible to trade. The theme of the letter itself involved describing the ideal relationship between liberty and security as symbiotic, not competitive.
 

kurokotetsu

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Sep 17, 2008
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I really doubt they have the raw horsepower to process the information in any significant way. SO this is just violiting rights and liberties (of all the world mind you, there are a lot of us that don't live in the US and are being treated as second class people because fo that, losing rights for not even the supposed protection that these programms give), wasting money and just being paranoid. And then poeple complain about the Government giving money to interesting science programs. So sad.
 

Muspelheim

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I've got a feeling that it's more of a clever ploy amongst the intelligence people to get themselves set with steady work and funding for fuckin' life. It's not very likely that the people set to work monitoring online games will even stumble into something unwholesome, but it's something they will get payed for, and the agency will look like they are achieving something.

It's a bit like bysantine bureaucracy, mainly existing for its own sake to give the people within it somewhere to go every morning.
 

Heronblade

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kurokotetsu said:
I really doubt they have the raw horsepower to process the information in any significant way. SO this is just violiting rights and liberties (of all the world mind you, there are a lot of us that don't live in the US and are being treated as second class people because fo that, losing rights for not even the supposed protection that these programms give), wasting money and just being paranoid. And then poeple complain about the Government giving money to interesting science programs. So sad.
Yes and no, if by that you mean all the data being processed and evaluated by a human being, you would be correct, it would take them centuries to fully do so for just one year's worth of data. But that is not what they are doing with it.

Data mining involves establishing a baseline, and looking for deviations. No human being will ever actually look at more than 99.9% of the collected data. Instead, the programs they use tell them what data is out of the ordinary, and where they need to focus their attention.

Complaining about privacy in a case like this is a bit like complaining that a surveyor 20,000 feet up in the air who is tasked with watching the ground for outbreaks of fire is spying on your backyard. Sure, someone in that position could use a telescope to spy on your home in detail, but that isn't what they are doing, and your home is just a speck among million of specks from their point of view.
 

kurokotetsu

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Sep 17, 2008
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Heronblade said:
Yes and no, if by that you mean all the data being processed and evaluated by a human being, you would be correct, it would take them centuries to fully do so for just one year's worth of data. But that is not what they are doing with it.

Data mining involves establishing a baseline, and looking for deviations. No human being will ever actually look at more than 99.9% of the collected data. Instead, the programs they use tell them what data is out of the ordinary, and where they need to focus their attention.

Complaining about privacy in a case like this is a bit like complaining that a surveyor 20,000 feet up in the air who is tasked with watching the ground for outbreaks of fire is spying on your backyard. Sure, someone in that position could use a telescope to spy on your home in detail, but that isn't what they are doing, and your home is just a speck among million of specks from their point of view.
Who said anything abut humans looking at my data? That doesn't undermine the point though. One, it is my data, I'm not a US resident and therefore they are gathering my data wihtout my consent and not giving me anything for it. THat is an invasion of privacy, even if not even a program went throught it. The analogy doesn't hold. If they are taking photos of my place, even if it is for other reasons, while breaking into my place, well, it is breaking my privacy. They are not taking a picture 20,000 feet up, tehy are going through my mail and porn and relationshipn, even if not done directly by humans. I may be a speck, but it is my right to have my information for myself.

Second, the amount of data recolected is so big that data mining is incredibly useless. What is ordinary? Considering personal differences, almost all individuals will have at least a trait that falls out of the ordinary it is quite probable. Well, those extraordinary things are mostly harmless (fetishes, intelligence, amount of social conections), but how to discriminate between them is hard. And eve "dangerous" terms are not very good. Because if I talk about terrorism, attacks, Molotov coktail's, bioagents, blah, blah, blah, well that data is giving false positives probably, and for example I could be doing those just by alking about things in a forum (or ebcause I hold an interest in Applied Math and infection disease). And they aren't few. There are probably far more false positives that true ones, making the program near useless. You are either very specific to avoid these false positives (meaning that almost a rudimentary code could get past ot) or too lenient getting so much cases to look at that human analysts with better discrimination skills aren't probably up to the task of looking at all the files. Internet traffic and other similar things are also incredibly hard to distinguish correctly with a simple program that can go through all the data they collect, being either not very hard to fool (a few proxies for example, open hotspots, public places, etc.) or so wide that give more useless information than anything.
 

Heronblade

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kurokotetsu said:
Second, the amount of data recolected is so big that data mining is incredibly useless. What is ordinary? Considering personal differences, almost all individuals will have at least a trait that falls out of the ordinary it is quite probable. Well, those extraordinary things are mostly harmless (fetishes, intelligence, amount of social conections), but how to discriminate between them is hard. And eve "dangerous" terms are not very good. Because if I talk about terrorism, attacks, Molotov coktail's, bioagents, blah, blah, blah, well that data is giving false positives probably, and for example I could be doing those just by alking about things in a forum (or ebcause I hold an interest in Applied Math and infection disease). And they aren't few. There are probably far more false positives that true ones, making the program near useless. You are either very specific to avoid these false positives (meaning that almost a rudimentary code could get past ot) or too lenient getting so much cases to look at that human analysts with better discrimination skills aren't probably up to the task of looking at all the files. Internet traffic and other similar things are also incredibly hard to distinguish correctly with a simple program that can go through all the data they collect, being either not very hard to fool (a few proxies for example, open hotspots, public places, etc.) or so wide that give more useless information than anything.
Actually, the nature of data mining is such that the more information you have, the more accurate you are. Precisely BECAUSE of all those inconsistencies. The greater your sample size, the more effectively you can eliminate false positives.
 

kurokotetsu

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Heronblade said:
Actually, the nature of data mining is such that the more information you have, the more accurate you are. Precisely BECAUSE of all those inconsistencies. The greater your sample size, the more effectively you can eliminate false positives.
Not exactly. Because I'm not talking just about the size of the sample being an impediment (which indeed is an important factor in the reliability of a test) but the nature of the tests. NSA, even with the advance techonolgy they have can't just get past the NP problem that represents searches of large data (and trying to correlated them. So to porcess all that data they have to be probably relatively soft criteria in their search algorithms (which gives false positives almost all the time, because they are only aiming for a few terms, site visits or small links). Either that or hard criteria which probably take so much time that information dirved form them aren't useful. Any test is more reliable the more data they have, but you have to have time to process the data, which the NSA probably doesn't have to do anything effective with these programs. So it is probably soft searches, with clsoe links, which not only give false positives, they are terrible for getting through very simple codes. They are not just data mining, they are trying to do it against the clock.
 

Esotera

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DoPo said:
Esotera said:
I don't care because they are protecting my freedoms, if I can't see it happening then I don't care. The massive amount of money they spend on these program is obviously worth it because it helps them catch terrorists, and at the end of the day that's all that matters.
Also, we obviously know it works - we haven't been eaten by terrorists, therefore the NSFBCIBBQ are indeed doing their job correctly.
Obviously they've been playing Counterstrike a lot. If that's what it takes to get a government paycheck playing games, sign me up.
 

Dragonlayer

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Dec 5, 2013
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Esotera said:
I don't care because they are protecting my freedoms, if I can't see it happening then I don't care. The massive amount of money they spend on these program is obviously worth it because it helps them catch terrorists, and at the end of the day that's all that matters.
Brace for impact: you're about to be swamped by the truly free and their never ending Benjamin Franklin quotes.

Unless of course you're being satirical, in which case I look quite the fool....

A terrorist fool as it were!