Another thread about sexism in video games.

[BrawlMan]

Wow dude. Somebody says something you dont like so you just dismiss them and run away, that is just....holy shit.

Dont agree therfore bullshit, what kind of attitude is that?

You been doing the same thing Critical has been doing. Making near constant justifications for fan service, or just speaking for people and making assumptions about artist intent. Or just making pathetic excuses of why it should be there. Just because there are women who do fan service on other female characters, does not automatically absolve everything, nor make it better. And it still didn't solve a problem that goes on with a lot of industries; especially the gaming industry AAA space. Japan and the anime industry has this problem too. Cultural barriers aside, I know something wrong when I see it. While there's nothing wrong with being sexy, they're are lines that need to be drawn, or at least have some type of standard. Don't like it, too bad.

 

[Worgen]

Individually, overly sexy armor or a damsel in distress are no big thing. The issue is when that starts happening everywhere. I doubt anyone could name an mmo where female versions of armor aren't all more skimpy then male ones. Even Tera which tends to be pretty good at giving both genders skimpy armor, will still have some sets that are completely covering plate mail for guys and a metal bikini for girls.

 

[McElroy]

Well having a healthy relationship is a start, but the biggest problem is that the people pushing for less sexualization in media (and anime in particular) also have relapses every now and then to feed their human needs (like say speaking against anime pedophilia and then liking some NSFW art) that is called hypocrisy by the latter.

Oh shit! Got me! But I disagree. Being mature is being a functional citizen first and a consooooomer second, and it's clear to any such mature person that excess is harmful. As a kid you don't have to have restraint of your own, it must be taught to you. Real life can be scary if one is immature, while the world of geek hobbies knows no such thing. Weebshit is especially terrible because the characters and their creators are infantile and autistic. V-tubers similarly.

Personally I'm aware that my media consumption harms me. COVID is a good excuse though. I'm afraid the last two years have brought about permanent psychological damage.

 

[CriticalGaming]

@BrawlMan I agree with Kamitani.

 

[Avnger]

@BrawlMan I agree with Kamitani.

The point of the comic is that Kamitani is at least honest about his sexist intent rather than dressing it up as "justified" with nonsense posturing. Considering your posts over the past several pages of this thread, you may agree with Kamitani, but you're nowhere near honest or self-reflective about it.

 

[CriticalGaming]

The point of the comic is that Kamitani is at least honest about his sexist intent rather than dressing it up as "justified" with nonsense posturing. Considering your posts over the past several pages of this thread, you may agree with Kamitani, but you're nowhere near honest or self-reflective about it.

Liking titties makes you a sexist?

 

[Agema]

These things both play to the power fantasy.

Men want to imagine themselves big and buff and powerful. So they are the big shirtless brutes or knights in shining armor (heroes who save the kingdom blah blah).

Women in revealing outfits also fit the power fantasy.

I think you're making a critical error here: the underdressed woman is part of the male fantasy, not female. These tropes heavily come from eras, genres and media where the audience was overwhelmingly male (SF, fantasy, comic books, computer gaming, etc.) and thus reflects what creators and advertisers thought males - particularly adolescent - wanted. Conan is a teenage boy's power fantasy. Red Sonja a teenage boy's wank fantasy. Things are changing because these are genres and media that have increasingly been consumed by women. And made by people increasingly aware that women want more than to be a man's wank fantasy.

The reason why revealing armors on women bothers people is because they want women to be ashamed of their bodies while men are expected to be revered for theirs.

If one day you ever try talking to women, you'll find that they are usually happy to liked for their bodies in the right context, and a lot less appreciative otherwise. So for instance they're up at a podium giving a science talk about renal filtration, they mostly want people to think "Wow, that woman really knows her stuff about the kidneys".

 

[Agema]

Liking titties makes you a sexist?

No, that's just a preference. However, weak justifications for why you should have women with huge tits out left, right and centre which are often based on inaccurate or prejudicial assumptions about women looks pretty sexist.

I mean, I like tits too, as I strongly suspect most heterosexual men do. I also see absolutely no reason why they should be on display according to my whims, simply through the principle of respecting the opinions of others, especially the owners of those tits.

 

[Gordon_4]

A lot of people have rightly guffawed at this, but come on, seriously? Why is one gender getting more practical armour than the other?

Bear in mind, you can actually justify different armour styles in-universe (see Warcraft III, and the different levels of armour for footmen, grunts, and archers for example), but as a rule in WoW? Yeah...



I don't think this is measure of anything pertaining to the actual subject, but I don't know where you're getting the idea that the most powerful characters are women. I don't have the time or inclination to do a 'power ranking' of every character, but if you asked who the most powerful character in Warcraft is, I'd nominate either Sargeras or Zovaal. Both are male.

I think he means the faction leader characters: Sylvanas Windrunner, Jaina Proudmoore, Moira Bronzebeard, Exarch Yrel, First Archannist Thal’yssra, Queen Talanji. And then you’ve got the Dragon Aspects, and the Shadowlands has given us new characters like the Winter Queen of Ardenwald, Kyrestia the Firstborne of the Kyrian and Draka - Thrall’s mother - is a major player in the Necrolords. And this list is by no means an exhaustive one.

Blizzard’s devs might be a bunch of drunken frat boys with no more respect for their colleagues - male or female - than any other garden variety yobbos, but their story writers have always been good at serving up loads of different characters across the gender lines for people to like.

 

[Brokencontroller]

I think you're making a critical error here: the underdressed woman is part of the male fantasy, not female. These tropes heavily come from eras, genres and media where the audience was overwhelmingly male (SF, fantasy, comic books, computer gaming, etc.) and thus reflects what creators and advertisers thought males - particularly adolescent - wanted. Conan is a teenage boy's power fantasy. Red Sonja a teenage boy's wank fantasy. Things are changing because these are genres and media that have increasingly been consumed by women. And made by people increasingly aware that women want more than to be a man's wank fantasy.



If one day you ever try talking to women, you'll find that they are usually happy to liked for their bodies in the right context, and a lot less appreciative otherwise. So for instance they're up at a podium giving a science talk about renal filtration, they mostly want people to think "Wow, that woman really knows her stuff about the kidneys".

What about Vampirella then? What about cosplayers that deliberately make sexier versions of characters? These characters can be enjoyed by women just as much as men.

You can argue that their creation was designed to appeal to teenage boys and that is fair. But being sexy or being a sex symbol is not sexism. Indiana Jones was a sex symbol for a while. There is sexual appealment aimed towards both sexes.

Even if we want to call Zero Suit Samus sexist, then you must also call those naked men advertisments sexist as well.

Again nobody has explained to me why being sexy equals sexism.

Fantasy is fantasy and comparing these character to things like, "Oh real women arent like this" is a strawman argument because of course they arent. Real men arent Kratos either. That is why this stuff is called FICTION.

 

[CriticalGaming]

No, that's just a preference. However, weak justifications for why you should have women with huge tits out left, right and centre which are often based on inaccurate or prejudicial assumptions about women looks pretty sexist.

I am not saying they SHOULD. I'm saying that there is nothing wrong should developers and artists want to design their characters or outfits in an "Sexy" mannor.

especially the owners of those tits.

Who owns the tits of a fiction digital creation? The character themselves? Or the artist designing the character? At what point are you people just projecting your own morals onto a fictional person who's never been written to have any such hang-ups?

It's fine you don't like your characters designed like that, okay cool, avoid games that don't treat characters the way you want, or don't have character designs that are pleasing to you. IF it really bothers you that much. But I have a real problem when people try to say that the people who do enjoy Onechambra or Quiet in MGSV or whatever it is, are some sort of scumbags because they merely enjoy these things because boobs and they only view these characters as wanky material. It's an incredibly unfair generalization that reeks of projection.

 

[Gyrobot]

Oh shit! Got me! But I disagree. Being mature is being a functional citizen first and a consooooomer second, and it's clear to any such mature person that excess is harmful. As a kid you don't have to have restraint of your own, it must be taught to you. Real life can be scary if one is immature, while the world of geek hobbies knows no such thing. Weebshit is especially terrible because the characters and their creators are infantile and autistic. V-tubers similarly.

Personally I'm aware that my media consumption harms me. COVID is a good excuse though. I'm afraid the last two years have brought about permanent psychological damage.

Adding to the problem is mainstream media is sterile over here. AAA gaming isn't cynically pandering to the horny fanbase like during the 2008. Even Genshin is toning down the sexual content for their games instead of the taking the cynical path of profit.

But these weebs won't shut up, they demand to be catered to and turning to what still gives them Booba and Ass

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

What about Vampirella then? What about cosplayers that deliberately make sexier versions of characters? These characters can be enjoyed by women just as much as men.

Making a character sexy in the '50s as a way to break away from male oppression is different that making a character sexy in the 2000s, when all of the lady characters were sexy to titillate men. Context is a thing

You can argue that their creation was designed to appeal to teenage boys and that is fair. But being sexy or being a sex symbol is not sexism. Indiana Jones was a sex symbol for a while. There is sexual appealment aimed towards both sexes.

Even if we want to call Zero Suit Samus sexist, then you must also call those naked men advertisments sexist as well.

It's telling that, when arguing about video games, literally every example of "equal" sexism against men comes from outside of video games, from mediums that also exploit females sexiness at a higher rate than male sexiness

Again nobody has explained to me why being sexy equals sexism.

Fantasy is fantasy and comparing these character to things like, "Oh real women arent like this" is a strawman argument because of course they arent. Real men arent Kratos either. That is why this stuff is called FICTION.

Speaking of strawman arguments, that's basically the oldest one. Congrats

 

[Hawki]

Come to think of it, who is Cortana meant to distract exactly? Because certainly not the Covenant. I doubt any of their species would find humans sexually attractive regardless of their sex.

 

[Hawki]

I think he means the faction leader characters: Sylvanas Windrunner, Jaina Proudmoore, Moira Bronzebeard, Exarch Yrel, First Archannist Thal’yssra, Queen Talanji. And then you’ve got the Dragon Aspects, and the Shadowlands has given us new characters like the Winter Queen of Ardenwald, Kyrestia the Firstborne of the Kyrian and Draka - Thrall’s mother - is a major player in the Necrolords. And this list is by no means an exhaustive one.

Blizzard’s devs might be a bunch of drunken frat boys with no more respect for their colleagues - male or female - than any other garden variety yobbos, but their story writers have always been good at serving up loads of different characters across the gender lines for people to like.

Well, yeah, but there's just as many male faction leaders. And the Dragon Aspects? Yes, we have Alexstraza and Ysera, but we also have Nozdormu, Malygos/Kalygos, and Deathwing (replaced by a character whose name I forget).

Like I said though, I don't think counting down the no. of male/female characters is indicative of much either way, regardless of setting. Not inherently.

 

[Worgen]

Come to think of it, who is Cortana meant to distract exactly? Because certainly not the Covenant. I doubt any of their species would find humans sexually attractive regardless of their sex.

Probably other humans. I mean it is a navy ship, think about it. If that is indeed his reason then it actually just gets creepier since that means her designer (who based Cortana on herself) made her to run the ship and also be... material to... assist the solders.

 

[Hawki]

Probably other humans. I mean it is a navy ship, think about it. If that is indeed his reason then it actually just gets creepier since that means her designer (who based Cortana on herself) made her to run the ship and also be... material to... assist the solders.

Yeah, but you don't want your own soldiers to be distracted.

 

[Worgen]

Yeah, but you don't want your own soldiers to be distracted.

No point of the reasoning if that was actually it, is good or logical or not creepy.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Somewhat relevant addition to the conversation:

 

[Agema]

What about Vampirella then? What about cosplayers that deliberately make sexier versions of characters? These characters can be enjoyed by women just as much as men.

Sure. If women want to look sexy and enjoy stuff about sexy women, that's up to them. I've no fundamental problem if women want to dress up in kinky cosplay or pop onto OnlyFans and show off their curves for $$$. Their body, their life. (Although potentially encouraging women to be viewed primarily for sexual attraction is a trickier and much more complex issue, and where it comes from exploitation of real-life models is deeply uncomfortable.) Women can be sexy, can want to be sexy, and it's not a problem for that to have representation in media, up to and including it being fine for men to create sexy women too.

But there sure also is a level where there is an unjustified disparity in the portrayals of men and women - so for instance the graphic in TheMysteriousGX's post #293 is the sort of area, particularly in terms of inappropriate sexualisation. (So are people being sexualised when they should be admired for another reason? Are they sexualised in a way inconsistent with their role?)

In a sense, given I do not have a fundamental problem with pornography, I think if you're going to have tits and ass showing all over your media for a wank fantasy, it's a valid design choice for pornography (mostly for male consumers). I just also think it can be judged accordingly, with very little time given to pretending otherwise and feeble appeals to some other artistic notion.