Another (yet different) Hamlet thread

[Kriptonite]

Hey everyone! Korten12 made a thread asking this fine community what they thought of Hamlet's mental state throughout the play. I agree with him in that I believe that the entire set-up was carefully calculated by a completely sane Hamlet. Now our English class just finished reading Hamlet as well and we were all recently assigned a thesis essay on said play. My thesis statement was something along the lines of "Ophelia may have gone insane after her father's death but she intentionally drown herself in the river because of the grief." Something like that. I was wondering what the escapist thought; could I word it better, any suggestions, any specific examples come to mind? I want to say thank you to Korten12 for giving me the idea to ask this fine community. Thanks for your help!

 

[Kriptonite]

I'm glad that you brought that up. One of the stipulations stated that the statement must be arguable.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Hey everyone! Korten12 made a thread asking this fine community what they thought of Hamlet's mental state throughout the play. I agree with him in that I believe that the entire set-up was carefully calculated by a completely sane Hamlet. Now our English class just finished reading Hamlet as well and we were all recently assigned a thesis essay on said play. My thesis statement was something along the lines of "Ophelia may have gone insane after her father's death but she intentionally drown herself in the river because of the grief." Something like that. I was wondering what the escapist thought; could I word it better, any suggestions, any specific examples come to mind? I want to say thank you to Korten12 for giving me the idea to ask this fine community. Thanks for your help!

Interesting you should bring that up.

There is compelling evidence that Ophelia was pregnant (mostly the flower scene - every single flower she mentions can and was used as either birth control or an abortion herb during that time period), and that the child was Hamlet's (her song about losing her virginity, Hamlet's comment about going to a nunnery).

That means that Ophelia was pregnant with an heir to Denmark.

With Hamlet exiled, she has no proof that her child is a prince. Since she's not married, and she no longer has a politically powerful parent to send her off to a convent to have the child in secret (get thee to a nunnery), she will soon be exposed as having become pregnant outside of wedlock. Since Denmark is catholic, that would be particularly problematic.

Also, anyone else who might be interested in providing an heir to Denmark would fine Ophelia's state a threat.

So, with that in mind...

Did Ophelia commit suicide because she couldn't handle having a child out of wedlock?

Or was she murdered by Gertrude (or Claudius) to prevent her from creating a conflict for the throne of Denmark?

If you enjoyed this analysis, feel free to PM me for more. ^^

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Rue is also known for it's properties in abortion, implying that Ophelia may even have been pregnant with Hamlet's child, and that the suicide was an attempt to take their unborn child with her. It's very subtle and is probably overly analytical, but it's something to take into consideration.

Not just Rue - every single plant she carries in with her was used either as birth control or as an abortion drug.

I wouldn't consider your analysis overly analytical - I would consider it spot on. Why would Shakespeare pick all of those, and only those plants unless he wanted the audience to get it? After all, those were common methods at that time.

It would be like Ophelia throwing birth control pills, condoms, spermicide, and morning after pills at the various characters. It was meant to be obvious.

 

[Riddle78]

Ophelia was,indeed,insane. However,she was lucid as well. The flower scene shown this. Gertrude's flower was supposed to represent adultery,and Claudius' flower was representative of repentance,and she hinted at knowing why Claudius should be repentant. Furthermore,her death was also in lucid mind;her family was wiped out,aside from Laertes,who was in France. She was making garlands on a branch,which broke. She saw this as release from her torment,and decided not to go for shore (if she knew how to swim,which I doubt she did).

Her insanity,in my opinion,was caused by Hamlet's rejection of her and his murder of Polonius.

Hamlet was,in our shared opinion,OP,very sane. He orchestrated everything to the point of getting Rosencrantz and Guildenstern killed by British authorities. He played the madman in order to have a guise for his strange behaviour while enacting revenge for the restless ghost of his father,Hamlet I.

That is my guess.

 

[Scorched_Cascade]

Sweets to the sweet, farewell!
I hop'd thou shouldst have been my Hamlet's wife:
I thought thy bride-bed to have deck'd, sweet maid,
And not have strew'd thy grave.

I love Hamlet, I really do but there are some things that I don't want to think about in too much detail before bed. One such thing is Hamlet and Ophelia's relationship and by extension Hamlet's relationship with his mother; to discern Ophelia's motivation I'd have to do that. I'll look this thread up in the morning and if it's still going I'll try and provide my view.

 

[Kriptonite]

If you enjoyed this analysis, feel free to PM me for more. ^^

Thank you so much for this analysis! You brought up some great points I either hadn't considered or even known about, such as the flowers all having to do with abortion. I look forward to continuing this discussion Bara_no_Hime! Again, thanks much!

Ophelia went very insane.
OT:It can also be taken she blames herself.It's very subtle and is probably overly analytical, but it's something to take into consideration.

Many thanks to you as well good sir. I do not think you are being overly analytical, I agree with Bara_no_Hime in that I think your level of analysis is perfect! Ophelia blaming herself was indeed something I had thought about and your explanation is greatly appreciated! It's ironic that by following her father's advice, she may(in her own mind believed that she) had unwittingly killed him.

Ophelia was,indeed,insane. However,she was lucid as well. The flower scene shown this. Gertrude's flower was supposed to represent adultery,and Claudius' flower was representative of repentance,and she hinted at knowing why Claudius should be repentant.

Her insanity,in my opinion,was caused by Hamlet's rejection of her and his murder of Polonius.

Hamlet was,in our shared opinion,OP,very sane. He played the madman in order to have a guise for his strange behavior while enacting revenge for the restless ghost of his father,Hamlet I
That is my guess.

I simply must delve more into the flowers she passed out. I know that each held significance to the recipient but I think a better understanding of each flower itself and its meaning would be quite helpful. Thank you for shedding more light on this aspect.

I'll look this thread up in the morning and if it's still going I'll try and provide my view.

I would be most grateful for your opinion in the morning!

I apologize for such a long post, but I thought it better than replying to each one in respectively in their own posts. Thank you all for such amazing input and ideas.
As weak as it is, I figured that, on a purely logical level, she had plenty of time to attempt to save herself from drowning from the way I interpret Gertrude's description of her death. Also, I was curious as to how the Queen had such detailed information on Ophelia's death...

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

I consider it overly-analytical because it's very rarely brought up when people talk at length about Hamlet. In fact, the arc of Ophelia and Hamlet's relationship is either skimmed over and used as a reference for other events in the play or just plain not there at all.

That's because people make the mistake of taking Hamlet at face value. Shakespeare isn't famous because he wrote plays that lack depth, but people today seem to think that, because it's hard to read, it is high art.

Shakespeare is high art because his writing has depth and requires that the reader dig a little deeper to understand it.

It's a shame really, as on a character level I consider it to be one of the far more interesting aspects of the entire play, and probably surpasses the Hamlet and Gertrude arc. The Oedipal tinges are certainly interesting, but it's something thats been dug at to death over the years, although for good reason.

Ugh, I hate the Oedipal interpretation. I think that's some wishful Freudian thinking. It's the exact opposite in my view - Hamlet hates what Gertrude has done, and that hatred spills over onto Ophelia, causing him to accuse her of his mother's sins.

Then again, an entire generation of actors made plays with that component, so lots of people get that idea. I highly prefer more modern takes (see David Tennant's Hamlet - actually, see it anyway because it's Hamlet starting Doctor Who and Captain Picard.)

Anyway, personally, I see no attraction between Hamlet and him mother in the text. Revulsion, yes, but attraction, no.

I could go on and on (I wrote a grad thesis on Ophelia) but I won't here. Like I said, feel free to PM me for more Hamlet related musings.

 

[Jas0913]

I felt like the characters in Hamlet were very one dimensional. Ophelia is very stupid and crazy, I envisioned her as what Shakespeare may have thought was the female stereotype of the time; ditsy and easily misguided. I wouldn't take my word on it though since i'm not a fan of the play and i have a huge bias against it, sorry.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

I felt like the characters in Hamlet were very one dimensional. Ophelia is very stupid and crazy, I envisioned her as what Shakespeare may have thought was the female stereotype of the time; ditsy and easily misguided. I wouldn't take my word on it though since i'm not a fan of the play and i have a huge bias against it, sorry.

See, this is the problem I feel a lot of modern readers have with Shakespeare - they take everything at face value, and don't look at what else Shakespeare wrote.

Shakespeare was a feminist writer - he wrote women as powerful, intelligent, and savy - usually more so than men.

Look at the Merchant of Venice. Yes, the play has some anti-semitic overtones which are one reason I won't teach it, but it does feature a woman who dresses up like a man, pretends to be a lawyer, and wins a law suit because she's smarter than everyone else there - the judge included.

Beatrice, from Much Adu about Nothing, an otherwise fluffy play, is portrayed as a very strong, very powerful woman. Taming of the Shrew is another one - featuring, not the taming promised in the title, but a relationship based on friendship and equality rather than submission.

There is absolutely no reason why Shakespeare would write Ophelia as the opposite of all his other female characters - and if you read carefully, he didn't. Ophelia deals with her father sarcastically, brushes off her brother's advise (she promises to lock his words in a box and throw away the key), and carries on a secret affair with Hamlet. When Ophelia becomes pregnant, and her husband-to-be is disgraced, she walks into the royal throne room and (in code) tells the King that he's an adulterer, and tells the queen to get an abortion. She then turns up dead - which is why many think she was murdered (rather than suicide).

The problem is, because she gets so few lines, many directors brush her off so they can focus more heavily on Hamlet's part. I have never seen a well-acted Ophelia. Never.

I'd go into the other characters, but it is easier to say that, if you'd like a better opinion of Hamlet, you should go watch the David Tennant version (yes, the 10th Doctor). If nothing else, you'll have a better appreciation for how multi-dimensional the character of Hamlet himself is.