Anti-heros: Are they all dicks?

[Canid117]

Wolverine: Anti Hero and often not a asshole
Deadpool: Smartass and kind of a dick but funny enough for me not to care
Alex Mercer: Angst the easy edge! Well written? No. Likeable? not really. Dick? Yup. Has some redeeming quality to save his characterization? Nope not really.

It all depends on the quality of the writing. Making an angsty asshat is the easiest "Phone it in" way of making an anti hero but a writer with actual talent will give them some redeeming quality or make them simply more introverted and and less outgoing without actually being total douches to those around them.

the creators of these mediums don't want you to empathise with the anti-heros, you're supposed to hate them and want them to lose so that your empathy for the hero is even stronger.

I think you are getting "Anti-Hero" and "Antagonist" mixed up.

 

[RagingScottsman]

I wouldn't really think of Deadpool as a dick. He's a complete and utter smart ass, but not THAT bad of a guy.

Not that bad of a guy?? He suckerpunches women to piss people off, uses civilians as hostages, murders people for money (or just for fun, or because they annoy him, or because...) CONSTANTLY and has doen tons of other evil stuff (like steal pies!). Anything heroic he does is incidental at best.

Those are bad things? Appears I missed a memo....

 

[MasTerHacK]

Arthur Dent.

Nice and simple.

 

[zacconius]

What about Holden Carver from Ed Brubaker's excellent "Sleeper" series? Neither hero nor total dick, I would say. Just the first example that came to mind, I'm sure there are more.

 

[Jamiemitsu]

I'd put Revolver Ocelot forward. And this is will make most sense for those have completed the series.

...Possible spoiler?

 

[Axeli]

the creators of these mediums don't want you to empathise with the anti-heros, you're supposed to hate them and want them to lose so that your empathy for the hero is even stronger.

I think you are getting "Anti-Hero" and "Antagonist" mixed up.

No, antagonist can be an anti-hero. Antagonist is simply a character who opposes the protagonist. Antagonist is not the same thing as a villain and protagonist is not the same thing as a hero (although that is how it usually goes in a conventionally story).

What he is actually mixing up are anti-heroes and protagonist villains. The former is just a hero who has some very obvious unheroic traits while the latter is when a story is told from the point of view of the villain.

EDIT: Of course you could consider protagonist villains a sub-type of anti-heroes, but it definitely does not describe all anti-heroes.

 

[Generic_Dave]

Spider Jerusalem.

 

[JediMB]

snip

This may be the case when it comes to the Ultimate series and others, but I still have fond memories of Venom occasionally doing the right thing to halt a greater evil. Spiderman does need help sometimes, you know.

Case and point:

"Surf the web! Surf the web!"

I don't think you understood what I said.

He was an anti-hero. Then he got bonked on the head one time too many and was hit by amnesia, becoming a pure villain again. Then the reset button was hit once or twice more. And then, finally, Scorpion became Venom, and the character became even more pointless.

 

[Canid117]

the creators of these mediums don't want you to empathise with the anti-heros, you're supposed to hate them and want them to lose so that your empathy for the hero is even stronger.

I think you are getting "Anti-Hero" and "Antagonist" mixed up.

No, antagonist can be an anti-hero. Antagonist is simply a character who opposes the protagonist. Antagonist is not the same thing as a villain and protagonist is not the same thing as a hero (although that is how it usually goes in a conventionally story).

What he is actually mixing up are anti-heroes and protagonist villains. The former is just a hero who has some very obvious unheroic traits while the latter is when a story is told from the point of view of the villain.

EDIT: Of course you could consider protagonist villains a sub-type of anti-heroes, but it definitely does not describe all anti-heroes.

Anti-Heroes are not meant to be hated so that either the hero or the protagonist becomes more beloved that is the task of the antagonist. The Antagonist can be an Anti-Hero or a straight up villain, but the anti-hero as a concept is not meant to attract hate but is meant to be a darker and less idealistic character. Batman in modern times is often considered a (albeit fairly light) anti-hero and yet he is the protagonist and you are not supposed to hate him. The original post that I replied to was mixing up two archetypes which while not mutually exclusive are not mutually inclusive either.

 

[Axeli]

the creators of these mediums don't want you to empathise with the anti-heros, you're supposed to hate them and want them to lose so that your empathy for the hero is even stronger.

I think you are getting "Anti-Hero" and "Antagonist" mixed up.

No, antagonist can be an anti-hero. Antagonist is simply a character who opposes the protagonist. Antagonist is not the same thing as a villain and protagonist is not the same thing as a hero (although that is how it usually goes in a conventionally story).

What he is actually mixing up are anti-heroes and protagonist villains. The former is just a hero who has some very obvious unheroic traits while the latter is when a story is told from the point of view of the villain.

EDIT: Of course you could consider protagonist villains a sub-type of anti-heroes, but it definitely does not describe all anti-heroes.

Anti-Heroes are not meant to be hated so that either the hero or the protagonist becomes more beloved that is the task of the antagonist. The Antagonist can be an Anti-Hero or a straight up villain, but the anti-hero as a concept is not meant to attract hate but is meant to be a darker and less idealistic character. Batman in modern times is often considered a (albeit fairly light) anti-hero and yet he is the protagonist and you are not supposed to hate him. The original post that I replied to was mixing up two archetypes which while not mutually exclusive are not mutually inclusive either.

Ah, okay, I thought you were talking about types of main characters and confusing villains with antagonists.

But I do have to point out that role of being hated is not inherent to the concept of antagonist. Especially if the story is about a villain protagonist the antagonist is often the one people will start rooting for. It's the villain who is normally supposed to be the hated character.
It's merely coincidental that antagonists are usually the same people as the villains, since we are in a habit of using heroes as the point of view characters.

But I guess it cannot be denied that character whose point of view we see are always that much more closer to gaining our sympathy, but still, being an unlikable asshole is not what antagonists are about.

 

[Ubermetalhed]

I'd put Revolver Ocelot forward. And this is will make most sense for those have completed the series.

...Possible spoiler?

If people keep quoting me it could well be!ha. I think I haven't said anything too damaging though.